On Wednesday, 29 April 2015 16:32:13 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:15:35 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
Have you ever used one before?

No I haven't

OK... Angle grinder basics...

WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

bad advice. Wear indirect vent goggles always. Don't and you're likely to end up in hospital needing something removed from your eye


They can bite. They can really bite.

11000rpm, coarse grit disc, even faster motor, and a tendency to dig in hard. Very useful, but one of the more injurious diy tools.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Angle_grinder


NT

WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

Bad advice.

Excellent advice, merely not as specific as your version.

Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a purchaser
might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet access
at all).

NT wrote:

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're self explaining when you use the tool for real.

To you, perhaps, to me, possibly, to many, with luck. But to all? I don't
think so.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a purchaser
might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet
access at all).

Yes, they should have instructions that make it clear what can injure you
and the best of them would provide their own well done videos too.

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 10:35:17 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

Bad advice.

Excellent advice, merely not as specific as your version.

excellent advice if you want eye injury. Its one of those habitual errors people make, ask any A&E dept.


NT

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 10:39:32 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
NT wrote:

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're self explaining when you use the tool for real.

To you, perhaps, to me, possibly, to many, with luck. But to all? I don't
think so.

Well, if someone doesn't figure it out I'm not sure they should be using an angle grinder. When to use the on-lock is a matter of judgement, and obviously using it increases risk. Any advice to use it in a manual could thus leave them open to being sued.


NT

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 11:34:26 UTC+1, Simon Brown wrote:
"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a purchaser
might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet
access at all).

Yes, they should have instructions that make it clear what can injure you
and the best of them would provide their own well done videos too.

Indeed. But its more expense, and a better idiot will find a way to do as they suggest and still get injured. Maybe they could fund a tool safety organisation or something. Doubtless the govt will ram that scam on us next, and we'll have to pay twice the price for every new AG and be forced to watch some dopey sod stating the obvious for 2 hours before being allowed to take the new purchase home.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 30 April 2015 11:34:26 UTC+1, Simon Brown wrote:
"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a
purchaser
might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet
access at all).

Yes, they should have instructions that make it clear what can injure you
and the best of them would provide their own well done videos too.

Indeed. But its more expense,

Sure, but not much given that its spread over all of those they sell.

and a better idiot will find a way to do as they suggest and still get
injured.

Sure, but there isn't much can be done about those.

Maybe they could fund a tool safety organisation or something.

I think youtube leaves that approach for dead.

Doubtless the govt will ram that scam on us next, and we'll
have to pay twice the price for every new AG and be forced
to watch ome dopey sod stating the obvious for 2 hours
before being allowed to take the new purchase home.

I doubt it. They don't even do that with cars.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:31:14 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:

Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The

I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard is very different.


Power Devil router:
http://s8.postimg.org/p1xqpn6id/image.jpg
Ferm router:
http://s8.postimg.org/q2xzernhx/image.jpg

IIRC, that model was made by Ningbo and a quick Google will provide many good reviews of the PD version which is basically a decent quality knock-off of the classic Elu:

http://allenina-powertools.en.made-i...ct-list-1.html

If you look at their website you can spot several current models rebadged as Titan, Parkside, PowerCraft etc.


This Ferm recip saw is identical to the PD one I binned (except for the colour). Can't find an online photo of the PD:

http://s8.postimg.org/y763ji9x1/image.jpg


So, if you're comparing like with like, the colour really shouldn't make a difference. As I said the PD router was very good and the recip saw was very bad so I'd expect the Ferm to be the same.

Simon Brown wrote:

I think Youtube leaves that approach for dead.

So far, most of the YouTube videos I've watched have shown one-handed
operation, often with no guard. One particularly choice one has the
operator holding down the workpiece with his spare hand, right in the path
of the cutter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 14:09:14 UTC+1, mike wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:31:14 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:

Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The

I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard is very different.


Power Devil router:
http://s8.postimg.org/p1xqpn6id/image.jpg
Ferm router:
http://s8.postimg.org/q2xzernhx/image.jpg

IIRC, that model was made by Ningbo and a quick Google will provide many good reviews of the PD version which is basically a decent quality knock-off of the classic Elu:

http://allenina-powertools.en.made-i...ct-list-1.html

If you look at their website you can spot several current models rebadged as Titan, Parkside, PowerCraft etc.

I thought you were going to say that.

PD & Ferm are/were large buyers.
Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire, that superior switch and reinforce the gears.
Crapco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can you do?
Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one we can do it at this price for you.

Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any certainty.


NT

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:47:05 PM UTC+1, wrote:

I thought you were going to say that.

PD & Ferm are/were large buyers.
Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire, that superior switch and reinforce the gears.
Crapco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can you do?
Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one we can do it at this price for you.

Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any certainty.

I agree it's not conclusive that the innards are identical and you're obviously going to require a higher standard of proof than I can provide. That being the case, why are you prepared to put so much store by something you heard down the pub?

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon Brown wrote:

I think Youtube leaves that approach for dead.

So far, most of the YouTube videos I've watched have shown one-handed
operation,

I do that myself with the 4" angle grinders.
Not with the full sized ones tho.

often with no guard.

I don't ever do that, even tho I have never had a disc or wheel come apart.

One particularly choice one has the operator holding down the workpiece
with his spare hand, right in the path of the cutter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

Sure, that is certainly the main downside of youtube, plenty
who don't have a clue about how to use them safely. But the
best of them warn you about the problems much better than
any printed instructions can do.

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 21:50:09 UTC+1, mike wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:47:05 PM UTC+1, wrote:

I thought you were going to say that.

PD & Ferm are/were large buyers.
Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire, that superior switch and reinforce the gears.
Crapco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can you do?
Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one we can do it at this price for you.

Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any certainty.

I agree it's not conclusive that the innards are identical and you're obviously going to require a higher standard of proof than I can provide. That being the case, why are you prepared to put so much store by something you heard down the pub?

its certainly not a story I heard down the pub.


NT

Simon Brown wrote:

often with no guard.

I don't ever do that...

Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can understand I
think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent view of the blade
and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer over the top of it -
which rather defeats much of the point of having it there, doesn't it?

In general though I found the tool easier to use and rather less daunting
than I was expecting from all the horror stories.

Thanks to everyone here for all the thoughts and advice.

Bert

On 30/04/2015 18:47, wrote:
On Thursday, 30 April 2015 14:09:14 UTC+1, mike wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:31:14 AM UTC+1,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:

Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the
Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but
obviously in their own colours. The

I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard
is very different.


Power Devil router: http://s8.postimg.org/p1xqpn6id/image.jpg Ferm
router: http://s8.postimg.org/q2xzernhx/image.jpg

IIRC, that model was made by Ningbo and a quick Google will provide
many good reviews of the PD version which is basically a decent
quality knock-off of the classic Elu:

http://allenina-powertools.en.made-i...ct-list-1.html



If you look at their website you can spot several current models
rebadged as Titan, Parkside, PowerCraft etc.

I thought you were going to say that.

PD & Ferm are/were large buyers. Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000
of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire,
that superior switch and reinforce the gears. Crapco: Hi, we'd like
to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can
you do? Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use
lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with
punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one
we can do it at this price for you.

Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at
this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not
Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any
certainty.


NT


A thumbs up for my PD circ saw. Bought as a temporary measure when my
Elu got pinched, it's still there a couple of decades on. Blade not
precisely 90 degs to the baseplate but that was easily corrected

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon Brown wrote:

often with no guard.

I don't ever do that...

Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can understand
I think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent view of the
blade

I don't need a decent view of the blade, I look at what its
doing to what I am using the angle grinder to do instead.

and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer over the top of it -
which rather defeats much of the point of having it there, doesn't it?

No, because it does prevent most of the bits
hitting the user if the disk does come apart.

In general though I found the tool easier to use and rather less daunting
than I was expecting from all the horror stories.

Yeah, I have never had a disc come apart and have never had
it jam in the work either. But then I don't use it to cut steel,
I use a disc in an electric saw that is mounted in my own
system to cut steel and use the angle grinder to on the
excess welds and rough edges that the saw produce.

Thanks to everyone here for all the thoughts and advice.

Thanks for the ongoing feedback from a new user.

In article , Bert Coules
wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

often with no guard.

I don't ever do that...

Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can
understand I think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent
view of the blade and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer
over the top of it - which rather defeats much of the point of having it
there, doesn't it?

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a snag you
will get the disc in your face - still it's your life. If you are cutting
metal the bits of hot metal being ground off can be hot

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"charles" wrote:

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a snag
you
will get the disc in your face...

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

Bert

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
"charles" wrote:

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a snag
you
will get the disc in your face...

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

hold the grinder closer to your body and lean over.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
"charles" wrote:

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a snag
you
will get the disc in your face...

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

You look at what the disc does to what you are cutting.

On 01/05/2015 11:22, Bert Coules wrote:
"charles" wrote:

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a
snag you
will get the disc in your face...

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

Can you not look from the side?

Otherwise, just accept that using an angle grinder is not very precise.

I've never cut slate. Do you get bits of slate being thrown off?

BTW, people have mentioned eye protection, but you also need a *proper*
dust mask.

"charles" wrote:

Hold the grinder closer to your body and lean over.

That's what I did. But it does seem in contradiction to all the safety
warnings.

Simon Brown wrote:

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

You look at what the disc does to what you are cutting.

In some circumstances, wouldn't it be a little late by then?

"GB" wrote:

Otherwise, just accept that using an angle grinder is not very precise.

If that is the case, I was misled by all those YouTube videos which show
them in use with no guard at all, when more precision is achievable.

I've never cut slate. Do you get bits of slate being thrown off?

I suspect that it depends on the exact type, age, thickness and age of the
slate. In my case, yes, very small shards.

BTW, people have mentioned eye protection, but you also need a *proper*
dust mask.

Fortunately I was aware of that and made sure I had something suitable.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Simon Brown wrote:

How is one supposed to guide the cut properly if the placing of the disc
isn't in view?

You look at what the disc does to what you are cutting.

In some circumstances, wouldn't it be a little late by then?

Yes, it can be if you are using it to cut. I personally don’t use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical, I use a metal
cutting disc in a circular saw in my own arrangement that
turns a normal portable circular saw into a cutoff saw or
use a cutoff saw. I normally use an angle grinder to grind
welds back flush where that needs to be done or with a
wire brush to get rust off and doing it that way by seeing
what it does to the work works fine.

Simon Brown wrote:

I personally don’t use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the tool
is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It just
happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily have been
tackled with anything else.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
...
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally don’t use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It just
happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily have been
tackled with anything else.

Why aren't you cutting the slate before its part of the roof ?

If you did it that way, you could use something
much better than an angle grinder.

On 02/05/2015 10:04, Bert Coules wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally don’t use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It
just happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily
have been tackled with anything else.

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a
high level of accuracy is possible

Simon Brown wrote:

Why aren't you cutting the slate before its part of the roof ?

I did, but I did it wrong. And it's not on a roof.

If you did it that way, you could use something
much better than an angle grinder.

I did. I used an excellent slate guillotine. But once the slates were in
their final places that wasn't practical.

"stuart noble" wrote:

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a high
level of accuracy is possible.

Yes, that's very true. I can't recall if the ones I've seen used the tool
with a guard in place or not.

On 02/05/2015 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-02, stuart noble wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:04, Bert Coules wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally dont use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It
just happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily
have been tackled with anything else.

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a
high level of accuracy is possible

Although IME the sum total of safety equipment they use is a roll-up. No
goggles, helmet or ear protection.



TBH I don't think the risks are that high compared, say, to a circular saw.

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 10:54:44 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer model
for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at just under
the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a disc). Toolstation
have a Makita with disc at £54.72. There is a Lidl fairly near me
advertising their Parkside 2000W model (no disc) at £34.99, but it won't be
available until the 4th of May and there doesn't seem to be a way of
checking local availability online anyway.

Price isn't everything but obviously I don't want to pay more than I have
to. Many thanks.


What type of slate, floor or roof ?.

"Kipper at sea" wrote:

What type of slate, floor or roof?

Natural Welsh roofing slates, elderly and well-used.

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-02, stuart noble wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:04, Bert Coules wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally dont use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It
just happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily
have been tackled with anything else.

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a
high level of accuracy is possible

Although IME the sum total of safety equipment they use is a roll-up. No
goggles, helmet or ear protection.



TBH I don't think the risks are that high compared, say, to a circular
saw.

The difference is that you dont have to take the guard off to see what
you are doing with a circular saw and can in fact have decent laser
indication of where you will be cutting if you want with the saw.

On 02/05/2015 21:09, Simon Brown wrote:


"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-02, stuart noble wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:04, Bert Coules wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally dont use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It
just happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily
have been tackled with anything else.

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a
high level of accuracy is possible

Although IME the sum total of safety equipment they use is a roll-up. No
goggles, helmet or ear protection.



TBH I don't think the risks are that high compared, say, to a circular
saw.

The difference is that you dont have to take the guard off to see what
you are doing with a circular saw and can in fact have decent laser
indication of where you will be cutting if you want with the saw.

I've never had a grinder kick back, even when making less than precise
cuts in 50mm slabs. That's the advantage of a disc over a toothed blade
I guess.

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 21:09, Simon Brown wrote:


"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-02, stuart noble wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:04, Bert Coules wrote:
Simon Brown wrote:

I personally dont use
an angle grinder to cut when cutting is critical...

Yes, even in my severely limited experience it's become clear that
the
tool is better suited for grinding (hence the name) than cutting. It
just happened that the particular job I needed it for couldn't easily
have been tackled with anything else.

When you watch paving guys cutting kerbstones etc, it's clear that a
high level of accuracy is possible

Although IME the sum total of safety equipment they use is a roll-up.
No
goggles, helmet or ear protection.



TBH I don't think the risks are that high compared, say, to a circular
saw.

The difference is that you dont have to take the guard off to see what
you are doing with a circular saw and can in fact have decent laser
indication of where you will be cutting if you want with the saw.

I've never had a grinder kick back,

I haven't either, but I dont use them to cut, just to grind off metal.

even when making less than precise cuts in 50mm slabs.

I dont use them for that either, a circular saw works a lot better for
that.

That's the advantage of a disc over a toothed blade I guess.

I haven't had a circular saw kick back either so that line can't fly.

Bert Coules wrote:

One particularly choice one has the operator holding down the
workpiece with his spare hand, right in the path of the cutter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

He's a cocky sod, when someone criticised his lack of safety his reply
was "The blade that I'm using can hurt you but you would not cut off
your fingers. Diamond blades are pretty safe. You still want to protect
your fingers but you would have to hold the blade on your skin for
several seconds to even break the skin"

On Mon, 04 May 2015 14:41:38 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

One particularly choice one has the operator holding down the workpiece
with his spare hand, right in the path of the cutter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

He's a cocky sod, when someone criticised his lack of safety his reply
was "The blade that I'm using can hurt you but you would not cut off
your fingers. Diamond blades are pretty safe. You still want to protect
your fingers but you would have to hold the blade on your skin for
several seconds to even break the skin"

I hope he went on to demonstrate...