On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:18:10 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

But a simple firm plastic box with a lid, large enough to take the tool
plus any bits and pieces but not so huge that they rattle around could
be extremely useful, especially where storage space is limited and
things have to be stacked up slightly.

But do cases like that exist?

Try "really useful box" quite range of sizes from 64 litres down to
not much more than a couple of table spoons in volume.

One would have to decide on a size and stick to it if you wanted then
to stack neatly. Though I think some combinations can have two
smaller ones cross ways on one larger one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:43:46 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:48:51 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:

I have a case for my (low-end, about £40 some years ago) Makita. TBH,
it's a pita. Trying to get the cable to get in the case and stay there
whilst I latch it,

That is a problem with nearly all the cased power tools I have. Why
don't they make a bit of space for the cable to be coiled (coiled,
*not* folded) into?

Even the Makita jig saw is difficult to get in, as is the Lidl SDS etc.
The Bosch Multitool in its L-Boxx is very easy and has plenty of room for
the flex and tools and instructions and plenty of spares.


--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

GB wrote:
On 28/04/2015 22:05, fred wrote:

For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
damage is done.

I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score will
be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

Funnily enough, reminds me of the second outing for my first angle
grinder. It had been sitting in a box for a couple of years and I
suddenly remembered it when I was trying to undo a mullered brake
caliper bolt. It was 5pm in December and I was full of cold.

I'd donned gloves, goggles & ear defenders and was hacking away when
suddenly, schoomp, it sliced its way through one of the glove's fingers
though thankfully not deep enough to get me.

I forget quite how I must have been contorted for it to bite a finger,
but it taught me exactly how much care and attention one must pay to the
business end of such tools and where to keep body parts in relation to them!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

On 29/04/2015 08:00, Scott M wrote:
GB wrote:
On 28/04/2015 22:05, fred wrote:

For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
damage is done.

I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score
will be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

Funnily enough, reminds me of the second outing for my first angle
grinder. It had been sitting in a box for a couple of years and I
suddenly remembered it when I was trying to undo a mullered brake
caliper bolt. It was 5pm in December and I was full of cold.

I'd donned gloves, goggles & ear defenders and was hacking away when
suddenly, schoomp, it sliced its way through one of the glove's fingers
though thankfully not deep enough to get me.

I forget quite how I must have been contorted for it to bite a finger,
but it taught me exactly how much care and attention one must pay to the
business end of such tools and where to keep body parts in relation to
them!


Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate.....:-)

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT), mike wrote:

Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) ...
snip
(*) Pale grey red fittings, dark adjustable front handle.

Those are the colours of Performance Power Pro ...

Ah now you mention that and Power Devil being red it all comes back
yes the exploding random orbital sander was a "Performance Power
Pro".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 01:02:09 +0100, GB wrote:

One tip to add to all advice given:

For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
damage is done.

I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score will
be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

I'd agree, but I can see the logic.

For a light graze or similar snick of your finger, it'll be the
difference between blood and a wake-up call. Obviously, for anything more
- umm - determined, it's going to make bugger all difference.

Rather more to the point, though, where the bloody hell are you buying
rigger gloves that you'd realistically call "medium tough"?

Last few pairs I've bought have been about as tough as a pair of blue
nitriles. Never mind shrugging off angle-grinders, they've not even coped
with brambles. Always assuming all the seams have actually been intact to
start with.

Stuart Noble wrote:

Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate...

Whether you do or not depends entirely on the circumstances.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Try "really useful box" quite range of sizes from 64 litres down to
not much more than a couple of table spoons in volume.

Thanks for that; I'll take a look.

Bert

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 09:20:54 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate...

Whether you do or not depends entirely on the circumstances.

Aye, I needed one as like you the slates needing an 1" or less
trimmed off their edge where already attached to the roof.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Bert Coules formulated the question :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Cases for equipment are a bit of a pita to use, with anything which has
cables or which you need to add extras like disks or bits.

Cases specially made for specific tools can be, yes. But a simple firm
plastic box with a lid, large enough to take the tool plus any bits and
pieces but not so huge that they rattle around could be extremely useful,
especially where storage space is limited and things have to be stacked up
slightly.

But do cases like that exist? A Google search for "tool box" and "tool case"
produces only big containers intended for lots of different tools.

Bert

If you have room, old office filing cabinets make for good equipment
storage and you can get them for just a thank you.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article , GB
writes
On 28/04/2015 22:05, fred wrote:

For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
damage is done.

I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score will
be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

My suggestion was to assist the careful user who might not have noticed
that their free hand was creeping closer to the disk/blade/cutter than
was safe. If someone is in the habit of blithely poking their bits into
the pointy end then I don't think there's anything that will save them
from themselves.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Aye, I needed one as like you the slates needing an 1" or less
trimmed off their edge where already attached to the roof.

My situation is similar. Though there's no roof involved, the slates are
positioned such that any undue force such as shearing or nibbling would not
be a good idea.

Bert

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

If you have room, old office filing cabinets make for good equipment
storage and you can get them for just a thank you.

I haven't acquired any for a good few years, but back then I paid something
like £15 each for secondhand cabinets and a great deal more than that to
have them delivered. I discovered afterwards that it wouldn't have cost
much more to have bought new from a local company which offered free
delivery.

But assuming it could be done more economically, it's a good idea. Thanks.

Bert

Well, I am now the owner of the Bosch GS600 4.5" angle grinder. The tool
seems to be very well made, but the package as a whole is seriously lacking.
Firstly, there's no supplied Allen key for fitting the blade guard: how many
casual users won't bother, I wonder? But more seriously, the instructions
are hopeless: despite being a 261 page book in 31 different languages,
crucial information is rendered only in uncaptioned illustrations, peppered
with childish icons and buried away at the end of the manual. What's worse,
several different models are illustrated, including, inexplicably, a
circular saw.

Most disturbing of all, as far as I can see there is no information
whatsoever about the controls and their functions. Am I expected to learn
by simply having a play with the thing? Frankly I'm reluctant even to plug
it in. I'm seriously considering taking it back.

Bert Coules expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

If you have room, old office filing cabinets make for good equipment
storage and you can get them for just a thank you.

I haven't acquired any for a good few years, but back then I paid something
like £15 each for secondhand cabinets and a great deal more than that to have
them delivered. I discovered afterwards that it wouldn't have cost much more
to have bought new from a local company which offered free delivery.

But assuming it could be done more economically, it's a good idea. Thanks.

Bert

Local Freegle always have them listed as free to a good home, those
plus desks, plus printers, but transport is always a problem. They
don't make do and mend like they used to, they just buy new.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
lead and invisible in the coils.

But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
their locations and their function.

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock. Presumably
it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But I've no idea
why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder unplugged)
until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general use is it
recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its temporary
position?

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

Bert

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:52:02 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Most disturbing of all, as far as I can see there is no information
whatsoever about the controls and their functions.

What "controls" are there, apart from a switch?

Adrian wrote:

What "controls" are there, apart from a switch?

I'm not clear why you thought it necessary to use inverted commas, but apart
from the on-off switch (which has a locking function) there's also,
apparently, a spindle lock. As I said above, the manual gives no indication
whatsoever as to when these locks should be applied and why.

Bert

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:46:32 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine.
But I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

It's there to lock the spindle so that you can unscrew the collar holding
the disc on.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch
in general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in
its temporary position?

Depends on how you intend to use it. If you're just tickling something,
don't lock it. If it's going to be on for any extended time, use it -
especially if it helps you to move your hand around so you can use the
grinder in a tight space.

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're absolutely common to all angle grinders. Have you ever used one
before?

Adrian thanks for your reply and the information.

They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
Have you ever used one before?

No I haven't, and I surely can't be the only purchaser in that position.

Looking at other models on the Screwfix website I downloaded the manual for
their sub-£18 Energer. What a difference: it's written in clear, correct
English with no puerile pictures, covers all the essentials and generally
imparts a real feeling of confidence that the user can handle the tool
properly and safely.

Bert

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:15:35 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
Have you ever used one before?

No I haven't

OK... Angle grinder basics...

WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

They can bite. They can really bite.

When you first switch 'em on, there can be quite a kick of torque. Be
ready.

They take a little while to spin down after switching off. This is when I
usually catch something I didn't intend to and didn't want to.

If you're using a cutting disc, always use the edge, not the face, and
never be tempted to try to grind with it.

Cut or grind at the wrong angle, and you will get vicious kickback. Be
prepared.

Don't try and "flex" a thin cutting disc. If you drop it, and you think
the disc hit the ground anything more than trivially, bin the disc. You
REALLY don't want bits of disc flying around.

If you've been cutting bolts or anything particularly solid and metal,
the piece WILL be hot. Hotter than you think. For longer than you think.
Much hotter and longer... Don't pick it up.

Others can probably fill in the gaps, especially when it comes to slate -
I tend to use 'em on steel.

Looking at other models on the Screwfix website I downloaded the manual
for their sub-£18 Energer. What a difference: it's written in clear,
correct English with no puerile pictures

Probably because they're not trying to cater for every language in one
manual, since the branding (and manual) is UK-only... shrug

I still wouldn't trust even the best-written manual in the world to show
me how to use a potentially very dangerous power tool, though - and a
good manual can lead you into a false sense of security.

In article , Bert
Coules writes
OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
lead and invisible in the coils.

But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
their locations and their function.

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock. Presumably
it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But I've no idea
why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder unplugged)
until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general use is it
recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its temporary
position?

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

I have to agree with you there, the instructions should be clear and
unambiguous, and not require you to go on a training course (either in
tool handling or confusicon interpretation)!.

On the subject of fitting the guard or not, I would heartily recommend
that you do. If you do then you have an extra place to rest valuable
(gloved) fingers against when holding (always use 2 hands on the beast)
and if you don't then it is all too easy for a hand to get too close or
to slip.

I have had to use an angle grinder without a guard in the past for
access reasons but IMV it would be foolish not to use it where you
feasibly could.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

Adrian, thanks for that. I had in fact done my own online research into the
basics but it's good to have them repeated.

I wouldn't expect an instruction manual to be a substitute for proper
training or professional advice, but I would expect it to cover the absolute
fundamentals. I'm really rather shocked that the Bosch does not.

Bert

In article , Bert Coules
wrote:
OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
lead and invisible in the coils.

But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
their locations and their function.

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine.
But I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

it's there so that you can undo the securing nut without the spindle
turning.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in
its temporary position?

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

Bert

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article , Bert Coules
wrote:
Adrian wrote:

What "controls" are there, apart from a switch?

I'm not clear why you thought it necessary to use inverted commas, but
apart from the on-off switch (which has a locking function) there's
also, apparently, a spindle lock. As I said above, the manual gives no
indication whatsoever as to when these locks should be applied and why.

The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Charles wrote:

The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

An interesting viewpoint. Given that the spindle lock directly affects -
which is to say, controls - whether or not the spindle rotates, I'm inclined
to disagree with you.

Bert

Fred wrote:

On the subject of fitting the guard or not, I would heartily recommend
that you do.

Thanks, but in fact I wouldn't have considered otherwise, even when I
thought there was no Allen key; I have plenty.

Though the situation is rather muddled by the manual showing a completely
different design of guard than the one actually supplied. Caused by it
covering several different machines of course, but a bit of clear labeling
and captioning would make all the difference.

Bert

Charles,

It's there so that you can undo the securing nut without the spindle
turning.

As I realised eventually, and as others have kindly explained. But it
should still be in the damn manual.

Bert

The Medway Handyman explained :
On 28/04/2015 17:45, Bert Coules wrote:
Mike wrote:

...the £20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks
ago fits your original requirements too.

Is it still available, though? I know that Lidl stuff comes and goes,
and there doesn't seem to be any way of checking availability, short of
going to a store.

Bert

Most AG take 115mm discs. 125mm discs aren't as common.

125mm is much more useful I find and they last longer. They are not
quite so common, but they can be found.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Charles,

It's there so that you can undo the securing nut without the spindle
turning.

As I realised eventually, and as others have kindly explained. But it
should still be in the damn manual.

I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Charles,

I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

It depends, I suppose, on just what sort sort of purchaser any particular
model is aimed at. The Bosch is labelled "Professional" but even
professionals have to be first-time buyers at some stage, or so you might
think.

Bert

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:57:24 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

An interesting viewpoint. Given that the spindle lock directly affects
- which is to say, controls - whether or not the spindle rotates, I'm
inclined to disagree with you.

It's probably more akin to using the wheelbrace before jacking the car up.

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Charles,

I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

It depends, I suppose, on just what sort sort of purchaser any particular
model is aimed at. The Bosch is labelled "Professional" but even
professionals have to be first-time buyers at some stage, or so you might
think.

The first one I used was hired. I think I got a quick "how to use it"
chat from the chap beind the counter.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:41:32 +0100, charles wrote:

I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

It depends, I suppose, on just what sort sort of purchaser any
particular model is aimed at. The Bosch is labelled "Professional" but
even professionals have to be first-time buyers at some stage, or so
you might think.

The first one I used was hired. I think I got a quick "how to use it"
chat from the chap beind the counter.

First one I used was at a mate's workshop, probably. I think I got
pointed vaguely in the right direction of where to find it.

On 2015-04-28, Clive George wrote:

On 28/04/2015 14:04, Adrian wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:55:05 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

The several recommendations for the Bosch are making that the current
front-runner.

...and the final clincher for me...?

Bosch are that rare thing - an ethically-owned business. 92% owned by a
charity set up by the founder of the business, which uses the profits for
philanthropic, development, educational, healthcare charitable purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung

(No, I don't work for Bosch. If I did work in their marketing dept, I'd
be shouting about that a lot more than they inexplicably don't seem to.)

I wonder if it might be counterproductive in many of their markets.

It is interesting to see how it has done so well - most of their profits
go back into the company, which is rather the opposite of most
companies. I wonder if there's a lesson there for anybody else?

(wikipedia has 2004 numbers - $2.1b profit, $72m to the charity, $6m to
the family, rest back into the company. Can you imagine any owner
settling for that little over here?)

Wow, I had no idea about all that!

On 29/04/2015 17:34, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:57:24 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

An interesting viewpoint. Given that the spindle lock directly affects
- which is to say, controls - whether or not the spindle rotates, I'm
inclined to disagree with you.

It's probably more akin to using the wheelbrace before jacking the car up.


I've never tried, but does spindle lock on and start the motor simply
burn out the motor?

Personally, I disconnect from mains before changing discs. Me = wimp,
but with both my hands and all my teeth intact.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
news
OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
lead and invisible in the coils.

But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
their locations and their function.

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But
I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Its there to lock the spindle so you can unscrew
the thing that allows you to change the disk.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its
temporary position?

IMO its better to not lock the motor on in a situation where
you can drop it and have it keep going after being dropped.

But sometimes, particularly when using it to grind off stuff
from freshly welded metal, its more convenient to lock the
motor on because that allows you to move the whole thing
around better when you don't have to hold the switch in.

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:54:08 +0100, GB wrote:

I've never tried, but does spindle lock on and start the motor simply
burn out the motor?

Stall it, yes. Injure you, probably.

On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 4:43:04 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 03:38:25 -0700 (PDT), nt wrote:

The one brand to totally avoid is power devil. A site boss bought
several PD tools, all were dead 30 days later.

Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) orbital sander that exploded on me.
The dicast metal backing plate just disintegrated. Lumps taken out of
wall and I was finding bits of shrapnel all over the room for ages.

(*) Pale grey red fittings, dark adjustable front handle.

Those are the colours of Performance Power Pro (the brand that Scott M reports he's had for nearly 20 years and is still going strong). Power Devil were red, and ceased to exist as a brand many years ago, so the likelihood of Bert buying one is fairly remote.

Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The

I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard is very different.


NT

On Wednesday, 29 April 2015 15:46:34 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock. Presumably
it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But I've no idea
why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Yup. When you change discs. You'll soon know when you go to do it.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder unplugged)
until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general use is it
recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its temporary
position?

Your choice.

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're self explaining when you use the tool for real.


NT