My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

On 27/11/2012 11:13, wrote:
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

I'd repost this to uk.legal.moderated (don't cross post as it will be
dropped)

On 27/11/2012 11:13, wrote:

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

What does / did your solicitor have to say about it? It would be nice
to think he'd asked the seller about such matters. Until you know
what's already been agreed, I don't think there's much you can do, apart
from perhaps asking the LA about planning permissions for the site.

--
Kevin

wrote:
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house,

Does your property have rights of access for the maintenance of your
side wall? I had a customer years ago who was able to insist on a narrow
gap between the buildings because that right existed.
Also, where exactly is the boundary relative to your wall? It might not
be exactly where your wall is. My friend had a similar thing to this and
the boundary (as defined by two fixed points 30m apart) did not run
along the house wall but was at a very shallow angle to it, leaving a
wedge shaped bit of ground varying in width from an inch to 6 inches
along the side of the house. The neighbour couldn't claim they'd had the
use of that area historically because it was just totally untended
ground, with bits of brick on the ground that had demonstrably been
there for 50 years.


Bill

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:32:42 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:


wrote in message
...
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached
house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do
this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing
etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in
but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though
I can't see that underpinning is one of them

Just wonder what would happen if you had such a wall covered in Solar PV.


--

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote:
You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though I can't see that underpinning is one of them.

But they want to build a wall (with 1000mm+ foundations presumably) right next to the OP's wall which, being victorian, probably has no foundations at all. I think there is every chance that the PWA should specify underpinning. It can also require that no load be put on the existign wall - i.e. their structure must be self supporting.

IANAL
Robert

In article , The Other Mike
writes

Just wonder what would happen if you had such a wall covered in Solar PV.

If the wall forms the boundary of your property you wouldn't have been
allowed to it in the first place as the panels wouldn't be on your
property, they would be overflying the neighbour's.

In theory you can't have anything on a boundary wall, not even a window,
so if you ever have part of a plot of land to sell it's best not to mark
the boundary with a wall but put it at least a meter away.

Not that any of this helps the o/p, the answer to that, I don't know.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Nov 27, 1:32*pm, "tim....." wrote:
wrote in message

...

My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. *There are plans to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached
house into an end-of-terrace. *I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. *If I AM obliged to do
this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing
etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in
but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work. Where is
the compulsion for the owner of the adjoining property? Yes, it would
be foolish not to get a PWA.

MBQ

Should not this have shown up when a search was done, though?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


wrote in message
...
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car
park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn
in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses
it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house
into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't
seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can
simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I
insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the
house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or,
judging by the area, to let?

wrote in message
...

/quote

My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new
house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans
to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as
a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very
well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the
two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a
detached
house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act
but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or
if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do
this,
can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing
etc.)
as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but
to
sell or, judging by the area, to let?

/quote

What you haven't confirmed is that your property definitely ends at
the
wall. Only that the other party may be acting on the assumption that
it
does, without actually checking.

It's conceivable that just so to cover such eventualities it was
sometimes
the practice to extend a property by a small amount onto any adjacent
empty land. As has been pointed out elsewhere. As you've recently
bought
your house, the solicitor you employed when buying the property should
be able to check this for you from the plans. If your property does
end
at the wall the very fact that they didn't point out this possibility
to you - and the fact that planning permission must have already been
granted for the adjacent land doesn't appear to reflect very well on
them.

The solicitor's primary duty is to protect your interests not simply
to fill in the correct forms.


michael adams

....

I'm not so sure about that, as down the road from me, a single dwelling
owner successfully stopped a developer who owned the adjacent plot from
making his house into a semi detached one about fi ve years or so back.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"tim....." wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new
house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are
plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently
used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't
very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined
onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house
from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the
Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to
this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If
I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as
underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is
not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests,
though I can't see that underpinning is one of them

tim

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote:

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

You both are, but often it doesn't happen.

Go see a properly qualified RICS surveyor, who will take on the responsibility for ensuring the structure does not damage your property. The side doing the work pay the bill under the PW Act. You need to serve the documents on the other side so that they don't crash ahead without approval.

He may be able to advise you whether you can object to the application or whether you need legal advice.

The planning application will result in your being flooded with offers from "Party Wall Surveyors". Do not sign any agreements with them, they are the scum of the earth and most have no qualifications.

In article , Tim
Streater writes
In article , fred wrote:

In article , The Other Mike
writes

In theory you can't have anything on a boundary wall, not even a window,

Having said this about the boundary wall ...

Not sure if that's been established yet, it may be a wall close to the
boundary but not a boundary wall. As others have said, get the
deeds/registered plan out and check.

so if you ever have part of a plot of land to sell it's best not to mark
the boundary with a wall but put it at least a meter away.

... you then suggest putting a meter on it!

I'll claim coordination rather than literacy problems, I end up having
to retype half my the-s to replace teh-s.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Nov 27, 3:21*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote:
You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him *This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though *I can't see that underpinning is one of them.

But they want to build a wall (with 1000mm+ foundations presumably) right next to the OP's wall which, being victorian, probably has no foundations at all. I think there is every chance that the PWA should specify underpinning. * It can also require that no load be put on the existign wall - i.e.. their structure must be self supporting.

IANAL
Robert

I agree with that. There was a recent thing on the TV where a
complete building fell down due to excavations next to it.
The usual thing is to insert a row of minipiles next to the existing
building to prevent collapse before excavations commence.
Expensive, they might not want to do it. There should be an engineers
report on ground conditions the OP should ask to see. His insurance
company may be interested too.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote:
wrote in message

...

My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new
house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans
to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as
a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very
well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the
two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a
detached
house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act
but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or
if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do
this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning,
sound-proofing
etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live
in
but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work.

well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement

but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it, he
can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not allowed to do
the work"

tim

wrote in message
...
My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into
my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in
town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually
a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make
out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion),
the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it
sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached
house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party
Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree
to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission
to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any
provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the
house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in
but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

....

Googling The Party Wall Act

quote

The person intending to carryout the work must serve a written
notice on the owners of the adjoining property at least two
months before the intended start of the work to every neighbouring
party giving details of the work to be carried out.
Each neighbouring party should respond in writing giving consent
or registering dissent -
if a neighbouring party does nothing within 14 days of receiving
----------------------------------------------------------------
the notice, the effect is to put the notice into dispute.
--------------------------------------------------------


No work may commence until all neighbouring parties have
------------------------------------------------------
agreed in writing to the notice (or a revised notice).
----------------------------------------------------


http://diydata.com/planning/party_wa...y_wall_act.php

(There's a Union Jack on the page so presumably this applies to
the UK. Sometimes you can go to quote legislation from the Web only
realise at the last minute it applies only to New South Wales,
or the State of Nevada.



quote

If you do a bit more checking I think you'll find you're
entitled to hire your own surveyor and solicitor - especially
if they're digging foundations and that the other side, the ones
doing the building, have to pay all your costs. Apparently there
are solicitors who specialise in this field, and they can maybe
get you out of the hole the last solicitor appears to have
landed you in.


michael adams

....

On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone
else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign.

[1] A principle that seems to escape those in the public sector.


The OP does not have to agree to anything. The developer is allowed,
subject to planning permission, to build a new, self-supporting wall on
his land. This wall can be touching the OP's wall, but not keyed into
it. In practice, there needs to be sufficient room between the walls to
allow maintenance, and I believe that is a planning issue.
Alternatively, the two walls can be joined, so there is no need for
maintenance.

The PWA has nothing to do with any of this. It simply requires that the
OP's property is not affected by the works.

On 28/11/2012 10:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:

On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone
else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign.

The OP does not have to agree to anything.

Just what I would have expected. That however seems to contradict what
the person to whom I was replying said.


You might be best off to read about the PWA. Try this
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...in_booklet.pdf

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:21:40 AM UTC, GB wrote:

The PWA has nothing to do with any of this. It simply requires that the

OP's property is not affected by the works.

Yes, there're two issues.

1) Whether the developer can join onto the existing wall or the distance that must be maintained.
Legal advice may be required, and an objection, if valid, could be made to the planning application.

2) Whether any permitted work undermines or damages the existing adjacent property.
This is for a local RICS surveyor who should be familiar with the PWA and how to stop the work if they go ahead without an agreement, as they often try to do.
Both parties have to appoint surveyors, or they appoint one agreed surveyor.
The developer pays the surveyor(s) acting for the adjacent property.

On 28/11/2012 11:51, Onetap wrote:

2) Whether any permitted work undermines or damages the existing adjacent property.
This is for a local RICS surveyor who should be familiar with the PWA and how to stop the work if they go ahead without an agreement, as they often try to do.
Both parties have to appoint surveyors, or they appoint one agreed surveyor.
The developer pays the surveyor(s) acting for the adjacent property.


If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an
injunction to stop them.

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:36:19 AM UTC, michael adams wrote:
"The person intending to carryout the work must serve a written
notice ..."

But we must bear in mind that this is a civil act. Building Control will not enforce it - you have to enforce it youself through the courts. I think a lot of people do just ignore it. As others have said, it's worth being proactive to make it clear early on that you will be expecting a PWA and to have your own RICS surveyor advising you.

On 27/11/12 22:00, tim..... wrote:

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote:
wrote in message

which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are
plans to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used
as a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very
well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto
the two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a
detached
house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall
Act but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening,
or if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work.

well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement

but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it,
he can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not
allowed to do the work"


A party wall is a shared wall. If at present there is no building, only
a gap between houses then it is not at present a party wall. Is the gap
there because at one time a building in that space was demolished? If so
then the wall may be a party wall. If not then it would seem to be a
boundary wall.


--
djc

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
GB wrote:

On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:

But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone
else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign.

The OP does not have to agree to anything.

Just what I would have expected. That however seems to contradict what the
person to whom I was replying said.

In this particular case there may be an alternative solution, but the
general case is the (part) owner of a party wall HAS to allow the other part
owner to do whatever works is required.

And FWIW there is generally no sanction that can be applied (by the first
owner) if the second owner does the work without permission.


tim

One point not mentioned.

Your house insurance may be restricted if they do undermine your foundations and your wall falls into the hole.

Remember the 45 degree rule from the bottom of your foundations applies etc, so excavating a ruddy big trench WILL cause the collapse of your wall unless it happens to be a very thick raft and even then the ringbeam can register its dissent.

Check if your house insurance offers free legal advice, which will be a) whether you are covered should something to wrong (such as Schedule 24 pipe running alongside your house owned by railway undertaker and they go right through it, similar event lost a block of apartments recently) and b) what they advise under their free legal cover. They can be quite helpful, use them if available.

On Nov 27, 10:00*pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...









On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote:
wrote in message

...

My third and final post of the day!

As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new
house,
which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. *There are plans
to
build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as
a
car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very
well
drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the
two
houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a
detached
house into an end-of-terrace. *I've been reading on the Party Wall Act
but
I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or
if
I can simply refuse them permission to do this. *If I AM obliged to do
this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning,
sound-proofing
etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live
in
but to sell or, judging by the area, to let?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him

Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work.

well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement

but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it,


I don't think it does.

he
can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not allowed to do
the work"

The question is whether he can refuse to enter into agreement. It
would, of course, make thing a whole lot more complicated if problems
were to arise.

MBQ

[Default] On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:44:35 +0000, a certain chimpanzee,
Tim Streater , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone
else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign.

[1] A principle that seems to escape those in the public sector.

The PWA and any agreements, etc., are nothing to do with the public
sector.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 1:26:57 PM UTC, GB wrote:

If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an

injunction to stop them.

Indeedy, but they may plan on having the work affecting the PW finished before you can see a solicitor and slap an injuction on them. You need the RICS bloke primed and ready to spring into action.

On 30/11/2012 13:21, Onetap wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 1:26:57 PM UTC, GB wrote:

If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an

injunction to stop them.

Indeedy, but they may plan on having the work affecting the PW finished before you can see a solicitor and slap an injuction on them. You need the RICS bloke primed and ready to spring into action.


You can get an injunction the same day.