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Legal question - party wall shenanigans
My third and final post of the day!
As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
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Legal question - party wall shenanigans
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Legal question - party wall shenanigans
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Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:32:42 -0000, "tim....."
wrote: wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though I can't see that underpinning is one of them Just wonder what would happen if you had such a wall covered in Solar PV. -- |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote:
You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though I can't see that underpinning is one of them. But they want to build a wall (with 1000mm+ foundations presumably) right next to the OP's wall which, being victorian, probably has no foundations at all. I think there is every chance that the PWA should specify underpinning. It can also require that no load be put on the existign wall - i.e. their structure must be self supporting. IANAL Robert |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
In article , The Other Mike
writes Just wonder what would happen if you had such a wall covered in Solar PV. If the wall forms the boundary of your property you wouldn't have been allowed to it in the first place as the panels wouldn't be on your property, they would be overflying the neighbour's. In theory you can't have anything on a boundary wall, not even a window, so if you ever have part of a plot of land to sell it's best not to mark the boundary with a wall but put it at least a meter away. Not that any of this helps the o/p, the answer to that, I don't know. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Nov 27, 1:32*pm, "tim....." wrote:
wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. *There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. *I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. *If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work. Where is the compulsion for the owner of the adjoining property? Yes, it would be foolish not to get a PWA. MBQ |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
wrote in message ... /quote My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? /quote What you haven't confirmed is that your property definitely ends at the wall. Only that the other party may be acting on the assumption that it does, without actually checking. It's conceivable that just so to cover such eventualities it was sometimes the practice to extend a property by a small amount onto any adjacent empty land. As has been pointed out elsewhere. As you've recently bought your house, the solicitor you employed when buying the property should be able to check this for you from the plans. If your property does end at the wall the very fact that they didn't point out this possibility to you - and the fact that planning permission must have already been granted for the adjacent land doesn't appear to reflect very well on them. The solicitor's primary duty is to protect your interests not simply to fill in the correct forms. michael adams .... |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
I'm not so sure about that, as down the road from me, a single dwelling
owner successfully stopped a developer who owned the adjacent plot from making his house into a semi detached one about fi ve years or so back. Brian -- Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________ "tim....." wrote in message ... wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though I can't see that underpinning is one of them tim |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote:
You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him You both are, but often it doesn't happen. Go see a properly qualified RICS surveyor, who will take on the responsibility for ensuring the structure does not damage your property. The side doing the work pay the bill under the PW Act. You need to serve the documents on the other side so that they don't crash ahead without approval. He may be able to advise you whether you can object to the application or whether you need legal advice. The planning application will result in your being flooded with offers from "Party Wall Surveyors". Do not sign any agreements with them, they are the scum of the earth and most have no qualifications. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
In article , Tim
Streater writes In article , fred wrote: In article , The Other Mike writes In theory you can't have anything on a boundary wall, not even a window, Having said this about the boundary wall ... Not sure if that's been established yet, it may be a wall close to the boundary but not a boundary wall. As others have said, get the deeds/registered plan out and check. so if you ever have part of a plot of land to sell it's best not to mark the boundary with a wall but put it at least a meter away. ... you then suggest putting a meter on it! I'll claim coordination rather than literacy problems, I end up having to retype half my the-s to replace teh-s. -- fred it's a ba-na-na . . . . |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Nov 27, 3:21*pm, RobertL wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:32:45 PM UTC, tim..... wrote: You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him *This should be drawn up in a way that protects all of your interests, though *I can't see that underpinning is one of them. But they want to build a wall (with 1000mm+ foundations presumably) right next to the OP's wall which, being victorian, probably has no foundations at all. I think there is every chance that the PWA should specify underpinning. * It can also require that no load be put on the existign wall - i.e.. their structure must be self supporting. IANAL Robert I agree with that. There was a recent thing on the TV where a complete building fell down due to excavations next to it. The usual thing is to insert a row of minipiles next to the existing building to prevent collapse before excavations commence. Expensive, they might not want to do it. There should be an engineers report on ground conditions the OP should ask to see. His insurance company may be interested too. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
"Man at B&Q" wrote in message ... On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote: wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work. well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it, he can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not allowed to do the work" tim |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? .... Googling The Party Wall Act quote The person intending to carryout the work must serve a written notice on the owners of the adjoining property at least two months before the intended start of the work to every neighbouring party giving details of the work to be carried out. Each neighbouring party should respond in writing giving consent or registering dissent - if a neighbouring party does nothing within 14 days of receiving ---------------------------------------------------------------- the notice, the effect is to put the notice into dispute. -------------------------------------------------------- No work may commence until all neighbouring parties have ------------------------------------------------------ agreed in writing to the notice (or a revised notice). ---------------------------------------------------- http://diydata.com/planning/party_wa...y_wall_act.php (There's a Union Jack on the page so presumably this applies to the UK. Sometimes you can go to quote legislation from the Web only realise at the last minute it applies only to New South Wales, or the State of Nevada. quote If you do a bit more checking I think you'll find you're entitled to hire your own surveyor and solicitor - especially if they're digging foundations and that the other side, the ones doing the building, have to pay all your costs. Apparently there are solicitors who specialise in this field, and they can maybe get you out of the hole the last solicitor appears to have landed you in. michael adams .... |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote:
But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign. [1] A principle that seems to escape those in the public sector. The OP does not have to agree to anything. The developer is allowed, subject to planning permission, to build a new, self-supporting wall on his land. This wall can be touching the OP's wall, but not keyed into it. In practice, there needs to be sufficient room between the walls to allow maintenance, and I believe that is a planning issue. Alternatively, the two walls can be joined, so there is no need for maintenance. The PWA has nothing to do with any of this. It simply requires that the OP's property is not affected by the works. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On 28/11/2012 10:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , GB wrote: On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote: But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign. The OP does not have to agree to anything. Just what I would have expected. That however seems to contradict what the person to whom I was replying said. You might be best off to read about the PWA. Try this http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...in_booklet.pdf |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:21:40 AM UTC, GB wrote:
The PWA has nothing to do with any of this. It simply requires that the OP's property is not affected by the works. Yes, there're two issues. 1) Whether the developer can join onto the existing wall or the distance that must be maintained. Legal advice may be required, and an objection, if valid, could be made to the planning application. 2) Whether any permitted work undermines or damages the existing adjacent property. This is for a local RICS surveyor who should be familiar with the PWA and how to stop the work if they go ahead without an agreement, as they often try to do. Both parties have to appoint surveyors, or they appoint one agreed surveyor. The developer pays the surveyor(s) acting for the adjacent property. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On 28/11/2012 11:51, Onetap wrote:
2) Whether any permitted work undermines or damages the existing adjacent property. This is for a local RICS surveyor who should be familiar with the PWA and how to stop the work if they go ahead without an agreement, as they often try to do. Both parties have to appoint surveyors, or they appoint one agreed surveyor. The developer pays the surveyor(s) acting for the adjacent property. If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an injunction to stop them. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:36:19 AM UTC, michael adams wrote:
"The person intending to carryout the work must serve a written notice ..." But we must bear in mind that this is a civil act. Building Control will not enforce it - you have to enforce it youself through the courts. I think a lot of people do just ignore it. As others have said, it's worth being proactive to make it clear early on that you will be expecting a PWA and to have your own RICS surveyor advising you. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On 27/11/12 22:00, tim..... wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in message ... On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote: wrote in message which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. If I AM obliged to do You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work. well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it, he can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not allowed to do the work" A party wall is a shared wall. If at present there is no building, only a gap between houses then it is not at present a party wall. Is the gap there because at one time a building in that space was demolished? If so then the wall may be a party wall. If not then it would seem to be a boundary wall. -- djc |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
"Tim Streater" wrote in message ... In article , GB wrote: On 27/11/2012 22:44, Tim Streater wrote: But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign. The OP does not have to agree to anything. Just what I would have expected. That however seems to contradict what the person to whom I was replying said. In this particular case there may be an alternative solution, but the general case is the (part) owner of a party wall HAS to allow the other part owner to do whatever works is required. And FWIW there is generally no sanction that can be applied (by the first owner) if the second owner does the work without permission. tim |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
One point not mentioned.
Your house insurance may be restricted if they do undermine your foundations and your wall falls into the hole. Remember the 45 degree rule from the bottom of your foundations applies etc, so excavating a ruddy big trench WILL cause the collapse of your wall unless it happens to be a very thick raft and even then the ringbeam can register its dissent. Check if your house insurance offers free legal advice, which will be a) whether you are covered should something to wrong (such as Schedule 24 pipe running alongside your house owned by railway undertaker and they go right through it, similar event lost a block of apartments recently) and b) what they advise under their free legal cover. They can be quite helpful, use them if available. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Nov 27, 10:00*pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ... On Nov 27, 1:32 pm, "tim....." wrote: wrote in message ... My third and final post of the day! As I may have mentioned elsethread, I've recently moved into my new house, which is a small Victorian detached cottage in town. *There are plans to build on the adjacent "yard" (actually a back garden currently used as a car park) and, from what I make out of the plans (which aren't very well drawn in my opinion), the new house will be physically joined onto the two houses it sits between, thus at a stroke turning my house from a detached house into an end-of-terrace. *I've been reading on the Party Wall Act but I can't seem to discover if I'm obliged to agree to this happening, or if I can simply refuse them permission to do this. *If I AM obliged to do this, can I insist on any provisions (such as underpinning, sound-proofing etc.) as the house that's being proposed is not for the owner to live in but to sell or, judging by the area, to let? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are obliged to enter into a party wall agreement with him Is he? I think the obligation is on the party doing the work. well yes the party doing the work has to draw up the agreement but my point is the law requires the OP, in principle, to agree to it, I don't think it does. he can't say "no I'm not going to agree to that so you're now not allowed to do the work" The question is whether he can refuse to enter into agreement. It would, of course, make thing a whole lot more complicated if problems were to arise. MBQ |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
[Default] On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:44:35 +0000, a certain chimpanzee,
Tim Streater , randomly hit the keyboard and wrote: But I see no reason that you have to agree to an agreement that someone else has drawn up. You negotiate the terms [1], then you sign. [1] A principle that seems to escape those in the public sector. The PWA and any agreements, etc., are nothing to do with the public sector. -- Hugo Nebula "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this, just how far from the pack have I strayed"? |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 1:26:57 PM UTC, GB wrote:
If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an injunction to stop them. Indeedy, but they may plan on having the work affecting the PW finished before you can see a solicitor and slap an injuction on them. You need the RICS bloke primed and ready to spring into action. |
Legal question - party wall shenanigans
On 30/11/2012 13:21, Onetap wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 1:26:57 PM UTC, GB wrote: If they go ahead without PWA notices being served, you can get an injunction to stop them. Indeedy, but they may plan on having the work affecting the PW finished before you can see a solicitor and slap an injuction on them. You need the RICS bloke primed and ready to spring into action. You can get an injunction the same day. |
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