D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Linux is a thoroughly proven and developed kernel these days.

You may argue about the desktop and gui bloatware but the underlying
kernel is as good as or better than any unix.

As someone who is migrating from Solaris to RedHat at the moment, it might
be good, but it's certainly not Solaris :-)

Missing dtrace and zfs the most. Maybe the top notch Sun/Oracle support as
well :-(

http://www.crisp.demon.co.uk/
&
ftp://crisp.dyndns-server.com/pub/re...ebsite/dtrace/

FYI ;-)

Andrew May wrote
Robin wrote

The instructions didn't mention partitioning the disk - it implied it
was just a temporary installation. And it certainly didn't mention
overwriting XP.

Can you be more specific about the "trial" you downloaded? I ask as
Windows releases do not usually allow you to revert and I'd be very
surprised if you can now. And MS usually make this pretty clear. Eg
the Windows 8 release preview carries a pretty clear warning:

"Important: If you decide to go back to your previous operating system,
you'll need to reinstall it from the recovery or installation media that
came with your PC, which is typically DVD media. If you don't have
recovery media, you might be able to create it from a recovery partition
on your PC using software provided by your PC manufacturer. Check the
support section of your PC manufacturer's website for more information.
After you install Windows 8, you won't be able to use the recovery
partition on your PC to go back to your previous version of Windows."

Let me get this right.

You didn't.

Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that will at some point
expire.

Yes, you did manage to get that bit right.

At this point you either have to pay for the release version

Or just decide that you don't like it before that etc.

or your PC will be useless because there is no facility for returning to
XP.

Anyone with even half a clue just uses the backup to return to XP
or reinstalls the XP in the same way that it got there in the first place.

Nice.

Pathetic in your case.

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:47:12 +0100, Andrew May wrote:

On 27/06/2012 22:42, Robin wrote:
The instructions didn't mention partitioning the disk - it implied it
was just a temporary installation. And it certainly didn't mention
overwriting XP.

Can you be more specific about the "trial" you downloaded? I ask as
Windows releases do not usually allow you to revert and I'd be very
surprised if you can now. And MS usually make this pretty clear. Eg
the Windows 8 release preview carries a pretty clear warning:

"Important: If you decide to go back to your previous operating system,
you'll need to reinstall it from the recovery or installation media
that came with your PC, which is typically DVD media. If you don't have
recovery media, you might be able to create it from a recovery
partition on your PC using software provided by your PC manufacturer.
Check the support section of your PC manufacturer's website for more
information. After you install Windows 8, you won't be able to use the
recovery partition on your PC to go back to your previous version of
Windows."


Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no facility
for returning to XP. Nice.

As far as I know, no MS OSes allow for an reversion, trial or not.

Quite a few do, actually.

In fact it wasn't until recently they allowed for multiple boots.

Depends on what you call recently. Thats been around for well before XP.

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:52:30 +0000, D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Linux is a thoroughly proven and developed kernel these days.

You may argue about the desktop and gui bloatware but the underlying
kernel is as good as or better than any unix.

As someone who is migrating from Solaris to RedHat at the moment, it
might be good, but it's certainly not Solaris :-)

Missing dtrace and zfs the most. Maybe the top notch Sun/Oracle support
as well :-(

We have zfs and dtrace upstairs - at least in my office! FreeBSD though..



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
The Night Tripper wrote:

Missing dtrace and zfs the most. Maybe the top notch Sun/Oracle support as
well :-(

http://www.crisp.demon.co.uk/
&
ftp://crisp.dyndns-server.com/pub/re...ebsite/dtrace/

FYI ;-)


Oh, I know ports exists.

Problem is I need proper enterprise support for the systems. RedHat offer
that on the basic level, but installing random bits of software and
filesystem drivers kinda voids some of that

Darren

in 1141689 20120628 192858 "dennis@home" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 27, 10:15 pm, "Jim Hawkins" wrote:
I wasted over an hour downloading this trial on my
other PC.
I have decided I do not now want it, but it doesn't tell
me how to revert to the original XP !
Anyone know how ?

before you do, try linux mint. It makes windows look pointless.

Mint doesn't work very well on my touch screen tablet.
I don't think the multi touch screen or digitiser work well under any
linux system.

i guess that's why android - the most popular os for mobile devices - is
linux, then?


Android is an OS that uses the linux kernel the same as mint is an OS that
uses the linux kernel.
Android is *not* linux in the sense most people refer to mint, ubuntu etc.

Oh yes it is!

in 1141725 20120628 212138 Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:49:39 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

OSX has always been "unix" based, well in as much as you can call BSD
unix. However linux is not Unix based, it is just a functional copy of
Unix and has not passed certification and probably never will.

I always refer to Linux as a 'jumped up UNIX wannabe'. When giving my
introductory lecture on UNIX.

Is that why 93% of the world's super-computers run Linux?

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:24:59 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:

in 1141725 20120628 212138 Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:49:39 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

OSX has always been "unix" based, well in as much as you can call BSD
unix. However linux is not Unix based, it is just a functional copy of
Unix and has not passed certification and probably never will.

I always refer to Linux as a 'jumped up UNIX wannabe'. When giving my
introductory lecture on UNIX.

Is that why 93% of the world's super-computers run Linux?

It's still not UNIX.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.

On 29/06/2012 10:15, Steve Firth wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.


OK, but I installed Ubuntu from a live disc, after making a new
partition or two, to make a dual boot Win 7 64-bit (spit) system, but
there was no easy way to remove the Ubuntu OS after I found that it did
not work well with the hardware, and kept crashing. I had to delete the
Ubuntu partition and repair the Win boot sector / manager using a
Windows 7 64-bit install disc downloaded from M$. But then I'm not fully
up to speed with computer terminology and may have got it all wrong...

David

On Jun 28, 3:08*pm, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:47:12 +0100, Andrew May wrote:
On 27/06/2012 22:42, Robin wrote:
The instructions didn't mention partitioning the disk - it implied it
was just a temporary installation. *And it certainly didn't mention
overwriting XP.

Can you be more specific about the "trial" you downloaded? *I ask as
Windows releases do not usually allow you to revert and I'd be very
surprised if you can now. *And MS usually make this pretty clear. *Eg
the Windows 8 release preview carries a pretty clear warning:

"Important: If you decide to go back to your previous operating system,
you'll need to reinstall it from the recovery or installation media
that came with your PC, which is typically DVD media. If you don't have
recovery media, you might be able to create it from a recovery
partition on your PC using software provided by your PC manufacturer.
Check the support section of your PC manufacturer's website for more
information. After you install Windows 8, you won't be able to use the
recovery partition on your PC to go back to your previous version of
Windows."

Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no facility
for returning to XP. Nice.

As far as I know, no MS OSes allow for an reversion, trial or not. In
fact it wasn't until recently they allowed for multiple boots.

Given that the 2nd sentence is bul****, how can I trust the 1st?

MBQ

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:32:41 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:56:03 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:32:21 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
Cue lots of variations of the standard reply:

"Install Linux poster's favourite distribution".

SLS...

:-)

That's your favourite?

It was the first I used, although as a result slackware's been my
standard distro of choice ever since (I've tried various others along the
way of course, but always found them too bare-metal or too sugar-coated).

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...


But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.

Maybe he hasn't seen how much of it is GNU?

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Linux is a thoroughly proven and developed kernel these days.

You may argue about the desktop and gui bloatware but the underlying
kernel is as good as or better than any unix.

As someone who is migrating from Solaris to RedHat at the moment, it might
be good, but it's certainly not Solaris :-)

Missing dtrace and zfs the most. Maybe the top notch Sun/Oracle support as
well :-(

Its also missing the compartmentalisation of the kernel need to get B2 (or
better) security.
You don't notice that until you can't sell your system into the places with
cash.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.

More firth cr@p.

dennis@home wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial
that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.

More firth cr@p.


in this case he is of course 100% correct.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial that

will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay for
the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you
like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options
such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.

More firth cr@p.


in this case he is of course 100% correct.

Its irrelevant cr@p.
None of the things mentioned were an upgrade that could be rolled back
easily.
Even the dual boot would require manual changes.

Live CDs are pretty useless too.
JGF pendrive linux if you want a live boot USB stick with persistent memory,
far better.

dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote:
"Andrew May" wrote in message
...



Let me get this right. Microsoft have given you a Windows 8 trial
that
will at some point expire. At this point you either have to pay
for the
release version or your PC will be useless because there is no
facility for returning to XP. Nice.


Its a preview.
They tell you to make sure you can revert using whatever method you
like
before you install it.
Its like linux, they don't provide a method to revert either.
You either reinstall or restore a backup.

More den********(tm). Linux distros are available that are designed
explicitly for those who want to try before they commit irrevocably
to a
full install of the OS. These distros offer fully reversible options
such
as live CDs, installations that run only from ram disk or dual boot.

More firth cr@p.


in this case he is of course 100% correct.

Its irrelevant cr@p.
None of the things mentioned were an upgrade that could be rolled back
easily.
Even the dual boot would require manual changes.

Live CDs are pretty useless too.
JGF pendrive linux if you want a live boot USB stick with persistent
memory, far better.

Or install Wubuntu. It installs, automatically gives you a multiple boot
setup to which you can add other distributions, and uninstalls without
leaving a byte behind apart from any data generated by the user.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 29/06/2012 08:24, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1141725 20120628 212138 Bob Eager wrote:
I always refer to Linux as a 'jumped up UNIX wannabe'. When giving my
introductory lecture on UNIX.

Is that why 93% of the world's super-computers run Linux?


All that proves is that it's jumped up a long way!

Andy

En el artículo , The Natural Philosopher
escribió:

ONLY windows STILL hasn't ported their bloatware to a stable underlying
operating system.

The NT kernel (which is used in all x86 versions of Windows up to and
including 8) is actually a pretty stable and reliable piece of software.
It was designed by an ex-DEC engineer who worked on VMS.

As you say though, it's all the ****e that M$ piles on top that makes
Windows unreliable.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo , Bob Eager
escribió:

But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.

It's /a/ unix, but it isn't UNIX, which is trademarked.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo , Jim
Hawkins escribió:

But it has been interesting to see what Windows 8 is like -
a kiddies picture book is the best description I can think
of.

Yes, I tried it and hated it. Fisher-Price Windows was the phrase that
came to mind.

Presumably Microsoft have decided to dumb down
their OSs to match the trend in western educational standards.

It's actually an attempt (misguided IMO) to standardise the user
interface between Windows Phone, Windows 8 on desktop and Windows 8 on
tablets.

I'll be staying with XP pro as long as possible.

Still running it here too. I have the Windows 7 DVD but it needs a
fresh install (won't upgrade XP) and I have everything tweaked just the
way I like it.

I'll probably jump to 7 when M$ end XP support and stop producing
updates (2014?)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:32:01 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Bob Eager
escribió:

But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.

It's /a/ unix, but it isn't UNIX, which is trademarked.

Exactly, hence my careful capitalisation. Not that I'm sure the noun
'unix' really exists. I'd prefer 'UNIX clone' or 'UNIX-like'.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , The Natural Philosopher
escribió:

ONLY windows STILL hasn't ported their bloatware to a stable underlying
operating system.

The NT kernel (which is used in all x86 versions of Windows up to and
including 8) is actually a pretty stable and reliable piece of software.

Not really. Its always had memory leaks.


It was designed by an ex-DEC engineer who worked on VMS.

As you say though, it's all the ****e that M$ piles on top that makes
Windows unreliable.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Bob Eager
escribió:

But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.

It's /a/ unix, but it isn't UNIX, which is trademarked.

well actually no, it isnt.
Its a *nix. in the vernacular and a linux in the not.

Designed NOT to be Unix to allow free distribution etc etc.

Its acquired its own momentum since then..


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:32:01 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Bob Eager
escribió:

But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.
It's /a/ unix, but it isn't UNIX, which is trademarked.

Exactly, hence my careful capitalisation. Not that I'm sure the noun
'unix' really exists. I'd prefer 'UNIX clone' or 'UNIX-like'.


*nix is the generic term.




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

En el artículo , Bob Eager
escribió:

Exactly, hence my careful capitalisation.

And mine :-)

Not that I'm sure the noun
'unix' really exists. I'd prefer 'UNIX clone' or 'UNIX-like'.

'*nix' or 'un*x' is acceptable too, I think.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:39:58 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2012-07-01, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , The Natural
Philosopher
escribió:

ONLY windows STILL hasn't ported their bloatware to a stable underlying
operating system.

The NT kernel (which is used in all x86 versions of Windows up to and
including 8) is actually a pretty stable and reliable piece of
software. It was designed by an ex-DEC engineer who worked on VMS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

Dave Cutler is *70*. And bald. And grey.

Ghod, that makes me feel even older than my creaky shoulders and neck in
the mornings. He was (is) one of my heroes.

He used to have (might still have) a car license plate with 'CMKRNL' on
it.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 11:56:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:32:01 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Bob Eager
escribió:

But it's not UNIX. Which was my point.
It's /a/ unix, but it isn't UNIX, which is trademarked.

Exactly, hence my careful capitalisation. Not that I'm sure the noun
'unix' really exists. I'd prefer 'UNIX clone' or 'UNIX-like'.


*nix is the generic term.

Well, one of them.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

En el artículo , Huge
escribió:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

Yep.

What's interesting is that the more you dig into the NT kernel, the more
you can see the influence of VMS, thanks to Cutler.

It also shows up in other OSes - look at all the foo$bar system
variables in RISC OS, for example.

Ghod, that makes me feel even older than my creaky shoulders and neck in
the mornings.

:-) Age is a state of mind.

He was (is) one of my heroes.

And Thompson and Ritchie, of course.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 12:13:27 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Huge
escribió:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

Yep.

What's interesting is that the more you dig into the NT kernel, the more
you can see the influence of VMS, thanks to Cutler.

Yes, the archirecture is very similar in many places. Not to mention
ODS-2/Files-11 and NTFS. That did Executive Software a lot of good.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 12:13:27 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Huge
escribió:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler
Yep.

What's interesting is that the more you dig into the NT kernel, the more
you can see the influence of VMS, thanks to Cutler.

Yes, the archirecture is very similar in many places.

Is that a nice way of saying 'the design of the arsehole' ??

Not to mention
ODS-2/Files-11 and NTFS. That did Executive Software a lot of good.



In the same way moving from an ox plough to a traction engine was a lot
of good?

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 14:01:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 12:13:27 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Huge
escribió:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler
Yep.

What's interesting is that the more you dig into the NT kernel, the
more you can see the influence of VMS, thanks to Cutler.

Yes, the archirecture is very similar in many places.

Is that a nice way of saying 'the design of the arsehole' ??

Not to mention
ODS-2/Files-11 and NTFS. That did Executive Software a lot of good.



In the same way moving from an ox plough to a traction engine was a lot
of good?

You obviously haven't actually worked on these systems, so I'll forgive
you.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 14:01:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 12:13:27 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artÃ*culo , Huge
escribió:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler
Yep.

What's interesting is that the more you dig into the NT kernel, the
more you can see the influence of VMS, thanks to Cutler.
Yes, the archirecture is very similar in many places.
Is that a nice way of saying 'the design of the arsehole' ??

Not to mention
ODS-2/Files-11 and NTFS. That did Executive Software a lot of good.


In the same way moving from an ox plough to a traction engine was a lot
of good?

You obviously haven't actually worked on these systems, so I'll forgive
you.

enough to not want to prolong the agony.
VMS was OK on a mini computer.

What ended up on NT wasnt that great.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

En el artículo , The Natural Philosopher
escribió:

In the same way moving from an ox plough to a traction engine was a lot
of good?

It's certainly stood the test of time. Which kernel(s) would you regard
as superior to those in VMS and NT, and in what way?

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")