On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:21:50 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...

I do not think you need a qualification to do a PAT test. I did the
course years back and it is basically common sense.

If you are confident you can make up connections and ensure that earth
bonds and insulation are o/k then you can do your own testing.

A visual inspection finds virtually everything. A DMM will find the d
earth faults and insulation problems, the supply breaker you plug into
isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear conductors.

A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

Get yourself a pile of do not use stickers from RS.

Be prepared to justify your testing regime if anything does go wrong.

HN

In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..

but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 21:39:42 +0100, charles wrote:

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an
employer,

So each member of the band gets paid individually and makes their own
contract with the venue or is it all done through one person?

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why
ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

Quite with a glorified bed sit in central London having an asking
price of over £1 million I dread to think what the rebuild cost of a
large hotel would be...

As for the PAT testing, having seen the appalling state of the kit
some musos think is fine it needs to be done. It's mostly down to
visual inspection anyway, correct fuses, no damaged flexes, outer of
flexes still in cable grips, no cracked or broken wall wart cases.
For kit that is earthed a low impedance from the plug earth pin to
any exposed metalwork etc

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 02/06/2012 22:50, Mr Pounder wrote:
"tony wrote in message

In articleBrudnbrLv9EV81fSnZ2dnUVZ7rudnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk, Michael
scribeth thus
Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Who are you talking to, me or Tony, you rude little cretin?

If it's me, then I'm not *in business*. I'm a man with a band that is
lucky to play a couple of times a year, and even luckier to get any
money for it, but we happen to have got a gig at a wedding (someone who
happens to be mad on the sort of music we play) at rather prestigious
London venue.

I'm not "in business", and I'm not interested in all this bull**** about
PAT and liability insurance. Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?


Michael

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 21:39:42 +0100, charles wrote:

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an
employer,

So each member of the band gets paid individually and makes their own
contract with the venue or is it all done through one person?

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why
ever
are they insisting on that amount?..
but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

Quite with a glorified bed sit in central London having an asking
price of over £1 million I dread to think what the rebuild cost of a
large hotel would be...


rebuild not that great - its the urban land that costs the cash.

As for the PAT testing, having seen the appalling state of the kit
some musos think is fine it needs to be done. It's mostly down to
visual inspection anyway, correct fuses, no damaged flexes, outer of
flexes still in cable grips, no cracked or broken wall wart cases.
For kit that is earthed a low impedance from the plug earth pin to
any exposed metalwork etc



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:50:03 +0100, "Mr Pounder"
wrote:

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Oi! Take your pills!

Michael Kilpatrick wrote:

Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?

Snip.

I'd say it was the venue not wanting you there.
I arrange an annual dinner for our Club, last year I asked if we can
bring our own disco. Yes, was the answer, so long as the disco man
brings in, beforehand, his CRB credentials (or pays if he hasnt got it),
his insurance, and his licence from the Performing Rights Society, and
something else that I cannot remember now, but they wanted proof that he
had bought the music, rather than downloaded it free.

It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

A.Lee wrote
Michael Kilpatrick wrote

Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?

I'd say it was the venue not wanting you there.
I arrange an annual dinner for our Club, last year I asked if we can
bring our own disco. Yes, was the answer, so long as the disco man
brings in, beforehand, his CRB credentials (or pays if he hasnt got it),
his insurance, and his licence from the Performing Rights Society, and
something else that I cannot remember now, but they wanted proof that he
had bought the music, rather than downloaded it free.

It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

And please do not forget any trailing sockets and adaptors. also it
will
save you if you make sure no mains plugs are of the non shrouded pin types
first as these just get cut off as illegal it seems.
The two way adaptor we used for over ten years suddenly became illegal this
yeear and now we have a trailing socket with wires for people to break their
necks over instead!

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


A DMM will find the earth faults and insulation problems, the supply
breaker you plug into isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear
conductors.

A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

A DMM does not provide 500v. You need that to check insulation. That's
what used to come from an old fashioned "Megger". It's now part of a PAT
tester.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which
is totally "A bout T"

--
Bill

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 08:51:08 +0100, Robin wrote:

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.


HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

In message op.wfbjsjm9loxewg@duncan-tosh, at 09:42:09 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.
--
Roland Perry

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the box,
equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so that
in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the wrong
order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can give the
effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which is totally
"A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

In message , Rod Speed
writes


"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L
which is totally "A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

Where does paranoia come into it? We are talking about PAT and what
needs to be checked. The correct assembly and safety of the plug is
part of this.
Although I would agree that moulded plugs are a lot safer in so far as
they reduce the mistakes that "people" can make.
Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

--
Bill

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:32:11 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:57:04 +0100, Bill wrote:

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is connected to the L of
the equipment etc. It's not unknown for moulded leads to be "cross
wired".

Interesting!

Worms and tin comes to mind. An IEC lead is simple enough to check for
the appropriate connections, but what about the appliance it connects
to?

How would you know for instance if the kettle wiring to the element
was correct without stripping the kettle down or risking life & limb
and switching on?


HN

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , Rod Speed
writes


"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and
check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which
is totally "A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

Where does paranoia come into it?

I don't believe that the percentage of molded cables that
don't have the correct wires on the correct plug pins is very
high at all with new cables.

I certainly don't bother to measure them all before using one.

We are talking about PAT and what needs to be checked.

I was actually talking about what makes sense instead.

The correct assembly and safety of the plug is part of this.

Sure, but I'm not that anal and I certainly don't
bother to PAT test everything in my home.

I doubt to many others in here do either.

Although I would agree that moulded plugs are a lot safer in so far as
they reduce the mistakes that "people" can make.

And last a lot longer too.

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And I was saying that it makes more sense to not have fused plug tops at
all.

None of the rest of the world that matters does.

In article ,
"Brian Gaff" writes:
And please do not forget any trailing sockets and adaptors. also it
will
save you if you make sure no mains plugs are of the non shrouded pin types
first as these just get cut off as illegal it seems.
The two way adaptor we used for over ten years suddenly became illegal this
yeear and now we have a trailing socket with wires for people to break their
necks over instead!

Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

The one case where they are illegal is on any appliance being sold
(even in a car boot sale), so if the PAT test was specifically for
verifying something was safe to sell, then that would cause a failure.

Of course, an organisation arranging PAT testing for itself can lay
down any additional rules they want, including a ban on unshrouded
pins.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:57:04 +0100, Bill wrote:

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is connected to the L of
the equipment etc. It's not unknown for moulded leads to be "cross
wired".

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:57:04 +0100, Bill wrote:

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is connected to the L of
the equipment etc. It's not unknown for moulded leads to be "cross
wired".

but that's not going to change in use ;-)

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 03/06/2012 06:52, Rod Speed wrote:
A.Lee wrote
It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

You seem to have a dim view of Michael's music!

Jon

On 03/06/2012 12:51, Jon Green wrote:
On 03/06/2012 06:52, Rod Speed wrote:
A.Lee wrote
It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

You seem to have a dim view of Michael's music!


Erm, he didn't say in which direction the stampede would be...

Michael

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:50:03 +0100, "Mr Pounder"
wrote:

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Oi! Take your pills!

Wellllllllllllllllll!

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:19:27 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message op.wfbjsjm9loxewg@duncan-tosh, at 09:42:09 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.

Mainlly it's cheap because you're highly unlikely to ever be sued for that
much. The coverage at 10Million is the same as at 2 on my policy.

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:58:46 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:32:11 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:57:04 +0100, Bill wrote:

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is connected to the L of
the equipment etc. It's not unknown for moulded leads to be "cross
wired".

Interesting!

Worms and tin comes to mind. An IEC lead is simple enough to check for
the appropriate connections, but what about the appliance it connects
to?

How would you know for instance if the kettle wiring to the element
was correct without stripping the kettle down or risking life & limb
and switching on?


HN





It's a kettle element, so it doesn't really matter. If you're really
paranoid you could check the live went to the thermal switch easily.

In message op.wfbzqtdcloxewg@duncan-tosh, at 15:26:43 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.

Mainlly it's cheap because you're highly unlikely to ever be sued for
that much. The coverage at 10Million is the same as at 2 on my policy.

I prefer to look at it as "we aren't insuring you for very many risks at
all, actually, so we'll be just as successful turning down claims for
10m as 2m".
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:05:29 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message op.wfbzqtdcloxewg@duncan-tosh, at 15:26:43 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.

Mainlly it's cheap because you're highly unlikely to ever be sued for
that much. The coverage at 10Million is the same as at 2 on my policy.

I prefer to look at it as "we aren't insuring you for very many risks at
all, actually, so we'll be just as successful turning down claims for
10m as 2m".

What's excluded on your policy? Mine's fairly all inclusive.

On 03/06/2012 11:18, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

You sure about 40? I'm sure I have some more recent than that (although
not by very much)

Andy

Phil W Lee wrote:

None of the rest of the world that matters does.

So we should descent to the lowest standards?

Go for it! Why don't you accuse him of paedophilia? Isn't that the way
that all disagreements get solved in the Lee household?

"If the *******s won't do anything about the taxi driver risking
people's lives by dangerous driving, book him to take your kids on a
trip, then report him for kiddy-fiddling. He'll never drive a taxi
again."

In article , Roland Perry
scribeth thus
In message op.wfbjsjm9loxewg@duncan-tosh, at 09:42:09 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.

You would hope prolly expect that any large venue would have insurance
cover to well, cover adverse events happening. Surely they don't depend
an any performer turning up and relying on their insurance to cover them
for that amount or has the world indeed gone more liability mad in
recent times;!...

--
Tony Sayer

Dave Liquorice wrote
Bill wrote

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is
connected to the L of the equipment etc. It's not
unknown for moulded leads to be "cross wired".

And only the most anal do a full PAT test on everything
they buy when the RCD will trip if its dangerous.

That's why we have RCDs.

I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?



This was cross posted to UK DIY as there are more likely to be people
there who have more practical knowledge of PAT testing than the group it
was originally posted to...

Have you anything constructive to add?..

--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote
Bill wrote

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is
connected to the L of the equipment etc. It's not
unknown for moulded leads to be "cross wired".

And only the most anal do a full PAT test on everything
they buy when the RCD will trip if its dangerous.


Not if the earth wire doesn't connect to the metalwork of the item in
question.

That's why we have RCDs.

you may have RCDs, but a great many premises do not. My local authority
did bring in a requirement for licenced premises to have RCDs "on stage
lighting circuits" over 20 years ago. Of course, they meant "stage power
outlets" - but got it wrong.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"Jon Green" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/06/2012 06:52, Rod Speed wrote:
A.Lee wrote
It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

You seem to have a dim view of Michael's music!

They would be stampeding in to hear the music, silly!!

In message , Rod Speed
writes
Dave Liquorice wrote
Bill wrote

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And still have to be checked that the L pin is connected to the L of
the equipment etc. It's not unknown for moulded leads to be "cross
wired".

And only the most anal do a full PAT test on everything
they buy when the RCD will trip if its dangerous.
That's why we have RCDs.

Rod,
remember that the OP was asking in relation to commercial activities and
not domestic. If you want to risk your life that is fair enough, if you
are not capable of realising the dangers then fair enough. But why keep
putting down, insulting and belittling people that are trying to have a
serious discussion about a serious subject?

--
Bill

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
"Rod Speed" considered Sun, 3 Jun 2012
20:05:23 +1000 the perfect time to write:



"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , Rod Speed
writes


"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and
check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which
is totally "A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

Where does paranoia come into it?

I don't believe that the percentage of molded cables that
don't have the correct wires on the correct plug pins is very
high at all with new cables.

I certainly don't bother to measure them all before using one.

We are talking about PAT and what needs to be checked.

I was actually talking about what makes sense instead.

The correct assembly and safety of the plug is part of this.

Sure, but I'm not that anal and I certainly don't
bother to PAT test everything in my home.

I doubt to many others in here do either.

Although I would agree that moulded plugs are a lot safer in so far as
they reduce the mistakes that "people" can make.

And last a lot longer too.

Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

And I was saying that it makes more sense to not have fused plug tops at
all.

None of the rest of the world that matters does.

So we should descent to the lowest standards?

Nope, you should move to the most viable
standard, plug tops that arent fused.

They clearly work fine for everyone else and those
who use the same voltage get less electrical fatalitys
and electrically caused fires per capita than you lot do.

Our BS1363 fused plugs (and the sockets
to match) are a masterpiece of design,

Nope, because its MUCH too easy to **** them up as he listed.

and the very fact that you can't understand why they are so
necessary is a testament to how successful they have been
at reducing the various forms of electrical safety problems
that can afflict less well designed systems.

Those who use the same voltage get less electrical
fatalitys and electrically caused fires per capita than
you lot do proves that that is a lie.

It is incredibly rare for electrical problems to have catastrophic results
on devices that are correctly wired with compliant plugs and sockets.

But is nothing like that rare for someone to **** them up.

That cant happen with a modern molded fuseless plug top.

You cant even **** those up by using a nail instead of the fuse.

Unfortunately, you've just shown how that can lead to complacency.

Another lie.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Roland Perry
scribeth thus
In message op.wfbjsjm9loxewg@duncan-tosh, at 09:42:09 on Sun, 3 Jun
2012, Duncan Wood remarked:
£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

The cheapness shows how little coverage it provides, once you fully
understand what failings (by the insured) are and aren't included.

You would hope prolly expect that any large venue would have insurance
cover to well, cover adverse events happening. Surely they don't depend
an any performer turning up and relying on their insurance to cover them
for that amount or has the world indeed gone more liability mad in
recent times;!...

More likely as someone suggested, they are just trying to
discourage anyone from using their own musos when its
illegal to say that you must use theirs.