In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..

but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 21:39:42 +0100, charles wrote:

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an
employer,

So each member of the band gets paid individually and makes their own
contract with the venue or is it all done through one person?

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why
ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

Quite with a glorified bed sit in central London having an asking
price of over £1 million I dread to think what the rebuild cost of a
large hotel would be...

As for the PAT testing, having seen the appalling state of the kit
some musos think is fine it needs to be done. It's mostly down to
visual inspection anyway, correct fuses, no damaged flexes, outer of
flexes still in cable grips, no cracked or broken wall wart cases.
For kit that is earthed a low impedance from the plug earth pin to
any exposed metalwork etc

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 21:39:42 +0100, charles wrote:

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an
employer,

So each member of the band gets paid individually and makes their own
contract with the venue or is it all done through one person?

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why
ever
are they insisting on that amount?..
but you might set fire to thenplace and kill some of the guests in the
process.

Quite with a glorified bed sit in central London having an asking
price of over £1 million I dread to think what the rebuild cost of a
large hotel would be...


rebuild not that great - its the urban land that costs the cash.

As for the PAT testing, having seen the appalling state of the kit
some musos think is fine it needs to be done. It's mostly down to
visual inspection anyway, correct fuses, no damaged flexes, outer of
flexes still in cable grips, no cracked or broken wall wart cases.
For kit that is earthed a low impedance from the plug earth pin to
any exposed metalwork etc



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:21:50 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...

I do not think you need a qualification to do a PAT test. I did the
course years back and it is basically common sense.

If you are confident you can make up connections and ensure that earth
bonds and insulation are o/k then you can do your own testing.

A visual inspection finds virtually everything. A DMM will find the d
earth faults and insulation problems, the supply breaker you plug into
isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear conductors.

A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

Get yourself a pile of do not use stickers from RS.

Be prepared to justify your testing regime if anything does go wrong.

HN

In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


A DMM will find the earth faults and insulation problems, the supply
breaker you plug into isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear
conductors.

A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

A DMM does not provide 500v. You need that to check insulation. That's
what used to come from an old fashioned "Megger". It's now part of a PAT
tester.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which
is totally "A bout T"

--
Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the box,
equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so that
in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the wrong
order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can give the
effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L which is totally
"A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

In message , Rod Speed
writes


"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , charles
writes
In article , H. Neary
wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?


I do open every plug and check the terminals, even on new, out of the
box, equipment, which a lot of places accept as OK because it is new.

Fuses are normally correct.
The number I find that have not been tightened fully is low.
But there are a lot that have the wires incorrectly cut to length so
that in the event of the cable grip failing they will pull out in the
wrong order. Frequently they are all cut to the same length which can
give the effect of them pulling loose in the order of E N L
which is totally "A bout T"

Makes a lot more sense to not have fused plug tops so you
can use molded plug tops instead and just check that they
are wired correctly if you are that paranoid.

Where does paranoia come into it? We are talking about PAT and what
needs to be checked. The correct assembly and safety of the plug is
part of this.
Although I would agree that moulded plugs are a lot safer in so far as
they reduce the mistakes that "people" can make.
Moulded plugs still have to have fuses fitted.

--
Bill

On Jun 3, 9:05*am, charles wrote:
In article , H. Neary

wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. *Do you open the plug top and check
the terminals?

A DMM will find the earth faults and insulation problems, the supply
breaker you plug into isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear
conductors.
A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

A DMM does not provide 500v. You need that to check insulation.

I don;t think you can on all equipment, it's OK on leads but putting
500V into a lot of electronic
and scientific equipment isn't a good idea, particually computers or
so I was told.


That's
what used to come from an old fashioned "Megger". It's now part of a PAT
tester.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article
,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Jun 3, 9:05 am, charles wrote:
In article , H. Neary

wrote:

[Snip]

A visual inspection finds virtually everything.

That depends on how thorough you are. Do you open the plug top and
check the terminals?

A DMM will find the earth faults and insulation problems, the supply
breaker you plug into isn't too bad for leakage caused by none linear
conductors.
A PAT tester would possibly find a few problems that the DMM wouldn't,
but given a protected supply with an RCCD there is no risk.

A DMM does not provide 500v. You need that to check insulation.

I don;t think you can on all equipment, it's OK on leads but putting
500V into a lot of electronic
and scientific equipment isn't a good idea, particually computers or
so I was told.

agreed. 240v is usual for them. but again you don't get that from a DMM.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:18:33 +0100, charles wrote:

I don;t think you can on all equipment, it's OK on leads but
putting
500V into a lot of electronic and scientific equipment isn't a
good
idea, particually computers or so I was told.

agreed. 240v is usual for them. but again you don't get that from a DMM.

230v nominal RMS. But the tolerance allows up to 253v RMS that's a
peak of 357v. I'd say anything that can't tolerate 500v won't last
through the first nearby thunderstorm.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

On 02/06/2012 22:50, Mr Pounder wrote:
"tony wrote in message

In articleBrudnbrLv9EV81fSnZ2dnUVZ7rudnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk, Michael
scribeth thus
Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Who are you talking to, me or Tony, you rude little cretin?

If it's me, then I'm not *in business*. I'm a man with a band that is
lucky to play a couple of times a year, and even luckier to get any
money for it, but we happen to have got a gig at a wedding (someone who
happens to be mad on the sort of music we play) at rather prestigious
London venue.

I'm not "in business", and I'm not interested in all this bull**** about
PAT and liability insurance. Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?


Michael

Michael Kilpatrick wrote:

Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?

Snip.

I'd say it was the venue not wanting you there.
I arrange an annual dinner for our Club, last year I asked if we can
bring our own disco. Yes, was the answer, so long as the disco man
brings in, beforehand, his CRB credentials (or pays if he hasnt got it),
his insurance, and his licence from the Performing Rights Society, and
something else that I cannot remember now, but they wanted proof that he
had bought the music, rather than downloaded it free.

It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

A.Lee wrote
Michael Kilpatrick wrote

Like any sane person I have a healthy
disdain for our litigious and insurance-mad society. However, on this
occasion it seems that the venue has a certain view. Interestingly, last
June I played for the very same client who hired the BAFTA club at 195
Piccadilly, and they never asked for any of this nonsense, thankfully.
Perhaps they actually bother to insure themselves properly, as a venue?

I'd say it was the venue not wanting you there.
I arrange an annual dinner for our Club, last year I asked if we can
bring our own disco. Yes, was the answer, so long as the disco man
brings in, beforehand, his CRB credentials (or pays if he hasnt got it),
his insurance, and his licence from the Performing Rights Society, and
something else that I cannot remember now, but they wanted proof that he
had bought the music, rather than downloaded it free.

It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

On 03/06/2012 06:52, Rod Speed wrote:
A.Lee wrote
It all adds up to them wanting to use their own in-house disco, they
cannot refuse you playing there, but put obstacles in your way to stop
it.

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

But arent as likely to burn the place down or produce a stampede
of hundreds of people and see quite a few trampled to death etc.

You seem to have a dim view of Michael's music!

Jon

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 08:51:08 +0100, Robin wrote:

£10million Insurance? I can work anywhere apart from nuclear power
stations and chemical works, and only need £2million pounds.

Your insurance provides cover for you almost everywhere but I think it
is quite common for councils and other public bodies to require £m5 of
£m10 public liability insurance. It is a bit of a barrier to small
firms but I can also see that £m2 ain't going to cover the damages that
can be caused in a school, leisure centre, town hall etc.


HOwever it's a very cheap extension to yur insurance if you want it.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:50:03 +0100, "Mr Pounder"
wrote:

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Oi! Take your pills!

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:50:03 +0100, "Mr Pounder"
wrote:

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?

Oi! Take your pills!

Wellllllllllllllllll!

I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

If you don't know you should not be in business.
Have you always been a stupid ****?



This was cross posted to UK DIY as there are more likely to be people
there who have more practical knowledge of PAT testing than the group it
was originally posted to...

Have you anything constructive to add?..

--
Tony Sayer

And please do not forget any trailing sockets and adaptors. also it
will
save you if you make sure no mains plugs are of the non shrouded pin types
first as these just get cut off as illegal it seems.
The two way adaptor we used for over ten years suddenly became illegal this
yeear and now we have a trailing socket with wires for people to break their
necks over instead!

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
Kilpatrick scribeth thus
I'm sure several people on cam.misc know lots about this sort of
mallarchy, and perhaps could be kind enough to comment:

Someone wants "PAT certificates for plug-ins" for my jazz orchestra to
perform at a wedding in September in a venue in the City of London. Oh,
and liability insurance for £10m!

So, how many stupid hoops do I have to jump through to provide
"certificates" for my equipment, given that there appear to be no actual
*rules* that prescribe how often (and to what extent) something should
be tested?

My equipment comprises:

1 x second-hand Soundcraft mixer desk (external power supply unit)
1 x keyboard amplifier (second hand)
1 x powered stage wedge monitor (new)
2 x powered PA speakers on stands (old, belonging to my trombonist)
2 x microphones and flexes
17 x 15W 240VAC music stand lights manufactured by myself, daisy-chained
in groups using IEC 'kettle lead' connectors.

And just to confuse things further:

An electric piano belonging to the pianist
A double bass amplifier belonging to the bassist

Damn all this litigious, bureaucratic bull****. I'm not an employer,
we're just a collection of people making music five times a year.

Michael

I can give you far worse examples of H&S gone mad..

I 'd expect the 10 mill insurance to be your biggest problem, why ever
are they insisting on that amount?..

They expecting you to blow so hard you'll literally bring the house
down;?..


I'd expect a phone round of a few electrical firms on Monday would see
this being done for a reasonable price but if you want a more definitive
answer uk.d-i-y is the best place to post...


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
"Brian Gaff" writes:
And please do not forget any trailing sockets and adaptors. also it
will
save you if you make sure no mains plugs are of the non shrouded pin types
first as these just get cut off as illegal it seems.
The two way adaptor we used for over ten years suddenly became illegal this
yeear and now we have a trailing socket with wires for people to break their
necks over instead!

Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

The one case where they are illegal is on any appliance being sold
(even in a car boot sale), so if the PAT test was specifically for
verifying something was safe to sell, then that would cause a failure.

Of course, an organisation arranging PAT testing for itself can lay
down any additional rules they want, including a ban on unshrouded
pins.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 03/06/2012 11:18, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

You sure about 40? I'm sure I have some more recent than that (although
not by very much)

Andy

In article ,
Andy Champ writes:
On 03/06/2012 11:18, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

You sure about 40?

No. I was thinking early '70's, but could be later than that.

I'm sure I have some more recent than that (although
not by very much)

Andy

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Jun 3, 11:18*am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Brian Gaff" writes:

* * * * And please do not forget any trailing sockets and adaptors. also it
will
save you if you make sure no mains plugs are of the non shrouded pin types
first as these just get cut off as illegal it seems.
*The two way adaptor we used for over ten years suddenly became illegal this
yeear and now we have a trailing socket with wires for people to break their
necks over instead!

Unshrouded pins are not illegal, and not directly a cause for PAT
failure. They would indicate a plug which is 40 or more years old,
and that might well have other things wrong with it, just from wear
and tear.

The one case where they are illegal is on any appliance being sold
(even in a car boot sale), so if the PAT test was specifically for
verifying something was safe to sell, then that would cause a failure.

Of course, an organisation arranging PAT testing for itself can lay
down any additional rules they want, including a ban on unshrouded
pins.

yes we do that here at universoty we also won;t allow those 2 pin
adapters to be used.
Typically they are used with laptops amd have been know to trip our
MCBs.
We also have a rle regrading not connecting two 'appliences' to the
same plug
but we've pretty much ignored that 'ruling'
But then again these 'rules' are made by those that have little
knowledge
of the subject.




--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]