On 11/04/2012 9:51 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.


every install I have done .. pump has been on return ... was told this
is considered good install practise, because you have a choice and it
makes sense to pump the cooler water.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the whole tank of water down first.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

I had amnesia once -- or twice.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his
is
on the return.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the whole
tank of water down first.

Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:



(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the whole
tank of water down first.

Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Why did the Blonde put ice in her boyfriend's condom?
To keep the swelling down.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:



(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't
want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock
should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole
tank of water down first.

Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:






That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole
tank of water down first.

Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

What's the most sensitive part of your anatomy when you are masturbating?
Your ears.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:






That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not
"feed
and expansion pipes".

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole
tank of water down first.

Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate
rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:10:35 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...








Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate
rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

Grow up.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

A penny saved is ridiculous.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcpjnywjytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:10:35 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:58:22 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcobpleuytk5n5@i7-940...








Best thing you can do (36 and nothing up top) is to ask your mate
rodders
(or continue typing ******** in uk.rec.driving).

Get lost stalker.

You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're
obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

Grow up.
Look in the mirror.

On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me
his is
on the return.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:23:58 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcpjnywjytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:10:35 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...










You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're
obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

Grow up.
Look in the mirror.

Only 6 year olds say that, along with "I know you are".

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Don't waste money on binoculars, stand closer to the object.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:



(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.

"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcps1felytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:23:58 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcpjnywjytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:10:35 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:14:33 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoeamk6ytk5n5@i7-940...










You need stalking, pal. You're a bloody idiot.

And just how does stalking someone correct idiocy?

Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're
obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

Grow up.
Look in the mirror.

Only 6 year olds say that, along with "I know you are".
A response like that proves you to be an idiot and/or bigot.
Please have the last word, you're stupid act (please god it's an act) isn't
worth bothering with.

On 13/04/2012 18:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:



(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't
want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock
should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be
submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump
and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. It goes
straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank
with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. Water pressure is
measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the
tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

What about the resistance offered by a lump of congealed gunk and hard
water scale wedged into the outlet of the F&E tank?

Tis the thing about fail safe systems, they are there it cope with
situations when other stuff goes wrong.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:04:48 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcps1felytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:23:58 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcpjnywjytk5n5@i7-940...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:10:35 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Lieutenant Scott" wrote in message
newsp.wcoj58cmytk5n5@i7-940...












Someone has to "mother you" and tell you you're an idiot. You're
obviously
incapable of noticing it yourself.

Grow up.
Look in the mirror.

Only 6 year olds say that, along with "I know you are".
A response like that proves you to be an idiot and/or bigot.
Please have the last word, you're stupid act (please god it's an act) isn't
worth bothering with.

Bigot? Do you even know what that means? Howe the **** does it apply to this so called conversation?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

You wag your tail like your mother, you repugnant, hairball engorging, cat buggering, pseudo-human android spawn of a foul-smelling telephone solicitor!

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:25:24 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 13/04/2012 18:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:






That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be
submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump
and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. It goes
straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank
with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. Water pressure is
measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the
tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

What about the resistance offered by a lump of congealed gunk and hard
water scale wedged into the outlet of the F&E tank?

Tis the thing about fail safe systems, they are there it cope with
situations when other stuff goes wrong.

I would think gunk would offer less resistance than the pipe connections in the system.

Anyway surely water frequently moves up and down into the expansion tank, so the gunk will shift.

And in Scotland, we don't have scale :-P

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Do not adjust your mind - the fault is with reality.

On Apr 13, 6:50*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). *It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. *It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. *Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The reason there should be two pipes is in case the boiler thermostat
fails.
If the water boils, a convection loop takes the excess heat away.
Water and steam goes up the expansion pipe and cool water comes down
the cold feed.
This hopefully prevents damage to the system.

Circulation pumps were quite likely to fail in days of yore if the
water boiled.
This was another reason they were on the return pipe. (Event of
thermostat failure)

Sealed systems have a safety/relief valve for this function.
However if that system boils dry, you could have major problems.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:19:10 +0100, harry wrote:

On Apr 13, 6:50 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The reason there should be two pipes is in case the boiler thermostat
fails.
If the water boils, a convection loop takes the excess heat away.
Water and steam goes up the expansion pipe and cool water comes down
the cold feed.
This hopefully prevents damage to the system.

Circulation pumps were quite likely to fail in days of yore if the
water boiled.
This was another reason they were on the return pipe. (Event of
thermostat failure)

Sealed systems have a safety/relief valve for this function.
However if that system boils dry, you could have major problems.

I'm not convinced that convection loop could remove the excess heat from a boiler going full bore, especially if most of the radiators have switched off their TRVs.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

An actor works all his life to gain recognition.
He makes guest appearances, spends a lot for publicity people and agents etc.
Then, when he finally becomes well known, he complains he cannot go out in public anymore.

On Apr 14, 12:55*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:19:10 +0100, harry wrote:
On Apr 13, 6:50 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). *It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. *It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. *Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The reason there should be two pipes is in case the boiler thermostat
fails.
If the water boils, a convection loop takes the excess heat away.
Water and steam goes up the expansion pipe and cool water comes down
the cold feed.
This hopefully prevents damage to the system.

Circulation pumps were quite likely to fail in days of yore if the
water boiled.
This was another reason they were on the return pipe. (Event of
thermostat failure)

Sealed systems have a safety/relief valve for this function.
However if that system boils dry, you could have major problems.

I'm not convinced that convection loop could remove the excess heat from a boiler going full bore, especially if most of the radiators have switched off their TRVs.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

An actor works all his life to gain recognition.
He makes guest appearances, spends a lot for publicity people and agents etc.
Then, when he finally becomes well known, he complains he cannot go out in public anymore.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It can. I have first hand knowledge.

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:20:27 +0100, harry wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:55 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:19:10 +0100, harry wrote:
On Apr 13, 6:50 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The reason there should be two pipes is in case the boiler thermostat
fails.
If the water boils, a convection loop takes the excess heat away.
Water and steam goes up the expansion pipe and cool water comes down
the cold feed.
This hopefully prevents damage to the system.

Circulation pumps were quite likely to fail in days of yore if the
water boiled.
This was another reason they were on the return pipe. (Event of
thermostat failure)

Sealed systems have a safety/relief valve for this function.
However if that system boils dry, you could have major problems.

I'm not convinced that convection loop could remove the excess heat from a boiler going full bore, especially if most of the radiators have switched off their TRVs.

It can. I have first hand knowledge.

Would the small expansion tank not eventually boil and be unable to remove as much heat as the boiler could put in? My tank is about a third of the size of the boiler.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Why are there Marines on Navy ships?
Sheep would be too obvious.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:30:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote





Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better?

Both.

There is a big difference between the temperatures.

Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch the pipe, and the return is body temperature.

Thats not enough to matter, because the pump has to be able to handle
the maximum temp the water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Even if you did, that's only occasionally, I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Isn't making a smoking section in a restaurant like making a peeing section in a swimming pool?

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:34:10 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote







so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

But if you think about it, the pump is still pushing into the flow pipe as it was before. It's just that the boiler
is now in the way. Unless the boiler piping makes that much difference?

There is a lot more resistance to flow in the radiators and their piping than in the boiler.

Exactly, so moving the pump to the other side of the boiler doesn't change the resistance much.


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

I go fishing; I catch nothing. I go to orgies; I catch everything.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:36:46 +0100, jgharston wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote:
But not with people. Try pushing a piece of furniture without wheels.
Now try pulling it.

There's nothing to hold onto to pull it. I tend to move furniture
by sitting on the floor and bracing myself against the wall and
expanding my legs to push the furniture away from the bracing.
Trying to pull just ends up with me contracting away from both
the wall and the furniture.

You need some Asics DS trainers.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

One workman asks another, "How long have you been working here?"
The other one replies, "Since they threatened to fire me."

On Apr 14, 6:37*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:20:27 +0100, harry wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:55 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:19:10 +0100, harry wrote:
On Apr 13, 6:50 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:01:34 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2012 23:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:33:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

I asked because I only have ONE pipe top the expansion tank. Not "feed
and expansion pipes".

You need a minimum of two pipes on a vented system, however exactly how
they are configured can vary.

The Feed and Expansion pipe is *one* pipe, (it serves both purposes -
allowing water to feed into the system, and accommodating expansion by
allowing water to be pushed back up into the F&E tank). *It will connect
to the base of the F&E tank - and its open end should always be submerged.

The vent pipe should loop over the top of the F&E tank so that its
highest point is higher than the water level in the tank, the top is
then typically bent around such that it discharges back into the tank.
This provides a *low resistance* path for steam to escape should the
primary water in the system ever boil for any reason.

Traditionally both these pipes attached to the system at different
places - often wither side of the pump. However you can attach the F&E
pipe to the system at one place, and then tee the vent pipe off that a
little higher, as this reduces the chance of drawing air into the
system, and if placed on the suction side of the pump can reduce the
chances of pump over (i.e. forcing water up the vent pipe so that it
spews back into the F&E tank, mixing in air into the process)

Hence the pump could not suck air down it, it would need to suck the
whole tank of water down first.

See above.

I have one pipe coming from the suck side of the pump (between the pump and the boiler), leading along then up to the expansion tank. *It goes straight into the bottom of the tank, and there's a T just at the tank with the over the top one you describe.

I fail to see why that pipe is less resistance. *Water pressure is measured by the height of water above you, which is identical inside the tank and in the loopy over the top pipe.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Never dive into deep concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The reason there should be two pipes is in case the boiler thermostat
fails.
If the water boils, a convection loop takes the excess heat away.
Water and steam goes up the expansion pipe and cool water comes down
the cold feed.
This hopefully prevents damage to the system.

Circulation pumps were quite likely to fail in days of yore if the
water boiled.
This was another reason they were on the return pipe. (Event of
thermostat failure)

Sealed systems have a safety/relief valve for this function.
However if that system boils dry, you could have major problems.

I'm not convinced that convection loop could remove the excess heat from a boiler going full bore, especially if most of the radiators have switched off their TRVs.

It can. I have first hand knowledge.

Would the small expansion tank not eventually boil and be unable to remove as much heat as the boiler could put in? *My tank is about a third of the size of the boiler.

--http://petersparrots.comhttp://petersphotos.com

Why are there Marines on Navy ships?
Sheep would be too obvious.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Most of the energy is carried away as steam. Cold water goes down the
feed to replace it.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better?

Both.

There is a big difference between the temperatures.

Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch the pipe, and the return
is body temperature.

Thats not enough to matter, because the pump has to be able to handle
the maximum temp the water can be when all the radiators are turned off
etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

Even if you did, that's only occasionally,

Sure.

I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the
boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps
are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats
the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler
piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

But if you think about it, the pump is still pushing into the flow pipe
as it was before. It's just that the boiler is now in the way. Unless
the boiler piping makes that much difference?

There is a lot more resistance to flow in the radiators and their piping
than in the boiler.

Exactly, so moving the pump to the other side of the boiler doesn't change
the resistance much.

The config you prefer has most of the resistance on the suck side
of the pump so you are more likely to see cavitation in that config.

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:06:30 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote






Both.



Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch the pipe, and the return
is body temperature.

Thats not enough to matter, because the pump has to be able to handle
the maximum temp the water can be when all the radiators are turned off
etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off. You do have a thermostat?

I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker. All the time is obviously different to sometimes.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally. But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

There's a word you are misunderstanding or misinterpreting, whether explicitly or by necessary and inescapable implication.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Both.

Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch
the pipe, and the return is body temperature.

Thats not enough to matter, because the pump
has to be able to handle the maximum temp the
water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

You do have a thermostat?

We arent discussing my house, we are discussing the general
question of where the pump is in systems with boilers and radiators.

I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

All the time is obviously different to sometimes.

Not when the pump is designed to handle
the temp when all the radiators are off.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:04:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Thats not enough to matter, because the pump
has to be able to handle the maximum temp the
water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does, I have a room stat. I don't understand people without one. Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane. It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Maybe . . .
Flying saucers are real and the Air Force doesn't exist.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Thats not enough to matter, because the pump
has to be able to handle the maximum temp the
water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen
on that question of room stats.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.

I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Thats not enough to matter, because the pump
has to be able to handle the maximum temp the
water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

Why would you be running your boiler when all the radiators are off?

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm enough,
the boiler shuts down.
With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you at the
time.
Pretty basic stuff.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen on that
question of room stats.
Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to **** on it
during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.
I'm talking about the pump being hot all the time.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.
You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 23:45:51 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote




Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

I don't use only TRVs to stop the flow. I use a room stat, so the boiler and pump go off too. I have a room stat for each area which will be separated by doors. If I didn't have enough room stats, I'd leave the TRV on full where there is a room stat, and use the TRV for the non-stated room.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen
on that question of room stats.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Er WHAT?!?!?! The boiler isn't a nuclear power station, it can come back on as soon as it's needed.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.

And why would I want the boiler burning away wasting gas and heating the room with the boiler in it while no heat is required?

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.

Obviously anything that wears out with heat will wear out quicker if it has this heat for longer.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

You stated that cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise. So which do you think lasts longer?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason -- Benjamin Franklin

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:41:51 +0100, brass monkey wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote






If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm enough,
the boiler shuts down.
With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you at the
time.
Pretty basic stuff.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen on that
question of room stats.
Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to **** on it
during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

ROTFPMSL! Well he does live in Australia, they haven't got mains gas.....

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If you are having sex with TWO women and ONE more woman walks in, what do you have?
Divorce proceedings, most likely.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Most obviously when it can be cold enough to need heating and you
get a warm spell that doesn't need heating. We get that most years.

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

I don't use only TRVs to stop the flow. I use
a room stat, so the boiler and pump go off too.

Pity about when some of the rooms like the bathroom still
need heat even when the main room doesn't anymore.

I have a room stat for each area which will be separated by doors.
If I didn't have enough room stats, I'd leave the TRV on full where
there is a room stat, and use the TRV for the non-stated room.

Then you can still have a situation where all the radiators are off
and the room stat hasn't decided to turn the boiler and pump off.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for
whatever is seen on that question of room stats.

Particularly with wireless room stats that can have battery
failure or just lose contact with the control system.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Er WHAT?!?!?! The boiler isn't a nuclear power
station, it can come back on as soon as it's needed.

But wont necessarily do that if the room stat has decided
that there is no need for heating, but the room on the non
sunny side of the house or the lossy-est room needs heat.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.

And why would I want the boiler burning away
wasting gas and heating the room with the boiler in it

It wont do that with a well designed system.

while no heat is required?

The heat may be required in the lossy est room.

And it isnt necessarily sensible to have a stat in all used areas
either, particularly if there are quite a few of them and when
the lossy-est areas can vary quite a bit with the weather and
time of year.

Sure, but since the pump has to be able to handle
the times when all the radiators are off, it will handle
the higher temp when on the supply side fine.

It's a pump design thing, not the time at the higher temp thing.

A higher temp will wear it out quicker.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.

Obviously anything that wears out with heat
will wear out quicker if it has this heat for longer.

And if the pump is designed to handle
the heat, it doesn't wear out with heat.

The pipes don't wear out with heat and its perfectly
possible to design the pump so that it doesn't too.

You can drive your car at 120mph occasionally.
But if you do that all the time, it will wear out faster.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

You stated that cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

So which do you think lasts longer?

As silly as asking whether cars or humans last longer.

Humans are nothing like cars life wise either.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
brass monkey wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote

If your house is warm enough, the boiler should switch off.

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm enough,
the boiler shuts down.

With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you at
the time.

Pretty basic stuff.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen on that
question of room stats.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to **** on
it during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

ROTFPMSL! Well he does live in Australia, they haven't got mains gas.....

Wrong, as always. We have a hell of a lot more gas than you lot do and
we do in fact have mains gas and many use it for heating our houses.

**** all are silly enough to use boilers and radiators now tho, we use
air systems instead.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 22:38:29 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
brass monkey wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote






Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm enough,
the boiler shuts down.

With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you at
the time.

Pretty basic stuff.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen on that
question of room stats.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to **** on
it during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

ROTFPMSL! Well he does live in Australia, they haven't got mains gas.....

Wrong, as always. We have a hell of a lot more gas than you lot do and
we do in fact have mains gas and many use it for heating our houses.

**** all are silly enough to use boilers and radiators now tho, we use
air systems instead.

What's so special about these air systems? P.S. I don't like noise.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

I was doing some remolishments to my house the other day and accidentally defurbished it.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 22:33:39 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote






They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

I don't use only TRVs to stop the flow. I use
a room stat, so the boiler and pump go off too.

Pity about when some of the rooms like the bathroom still
need heat even when the main room doesn't anymore.

I don't tend to close doors much, but those I do, I have a room stat each side.

I have a room stat for each area which will be separated by doors.
If I didn't have enough room stats, I'd leave the TRV on full where
there is a room stat, and use the TRV for the non-stated room.

Then you can still have a situation where all the radiators are off
and the room stat hasn't decided to turn the boiler and pump off.

No, because there is a radiator in the room with the stats which is controlled only by thee stats, not it's own valve.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for
whatever is seen on that question of room stats.

Particularly with wireless room stats that can have battery
failure or just lose contact with the control system.

You need to buy a better stat. Or stop ****ing about with wireless.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Er WHAT?!?!?! The boiler isn't a nuclear power
station, it can come back on as soon as it's needed.

But wont necessarily do that if the room stat has decided
that there is no need for heating, but the room on the non
sunny side of the house or the lossy-est room needs heat.

You put the stat in the room that needs most heat, and use TRVs to limit the heat in the rooms that need less.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.

And why would I want the boiler burning away
wasting gas and heating the room with the boiler in it

It wont do that with a well designed system.

I've yet to see a boiler that doesn't get hot.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.

Obviously anything that wears out with heat
will wear out quicker if it has this heat for longer.

And if the pump is designed to handle
the heat, it doesn't wear out with heat.

Why can you not understand that heat for a short time wears something out less than heat for a long time?

The pipes don't wear out with heat and its perfectly
possible to design the pump so that it doesn't too.

Pipes are not mechanical objects creating their own heat which needs to be lost.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

You stated that cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

Rocket science isn't very complicated, that phrase should be brain surgeon.

So which do you think lasts longer?

As silly as asking whether cars or humans last longer.

Humans are nothing like cars life wise either.

Answer the question.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Although I can accept talking scarecrows, lions and great wizards of emerald cities, I find it hard to believe there is no paperwork involved when your house lands on a witch.
-- Dave James

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
brass monkey wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm
enough, the boiler shuts down.

With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you
at the time.

Pretty basic stuff.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for whatever is seen on that
question of room stats.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term due
to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during the day
doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut down the
boiler completely. It may still need some heat at night etc
or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to ****
on it during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

ROTFPMSL! Well he does live in Australia, they haven't got mains
gas.....

Wrong, as always. We have a hell of a lot more gas than you lot do and
we do in fact have mains gas and many use it for heating our houses.

**** all are silly enough to use boilers and radiators now tho, we use
air systems instead.

What's so special about these air systems?

Hell of a lot easier and so cheaper to do and require a hell
of a lot less maintenance and last a hell of a lot longer and
are a hell of a lot easier to maintain if they require that.

P.S. I don't like noise.

There is no noise with one that's well designed.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:30:42 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
brass monkey wrote
Rod Speed wrote










We don't need to know about that, if the room stat says it's warm
enough, the boiler shuts down.

With a wireless stat you can put it in the room most important to you
at the time.

Pretty basic stuff.









Well yea, if you're burning logs it's a bit of a bugger having to ****
on it during a warm patch then go find the matches later.

ROTFPMSL! Well he does live in Australia, they haven't got mains
gas.....

Wrong, as always. We have a hell of a lot more gas than you lot do and
we do in fact have mains gas and many use it for heating our houses.

**** all are silly enough to use boilers and radiators now tho, we use
air systems instead.

What's so special about these air systems?

Hell of a lot easier and so cheaper to do and require a hell
of a lot less maintenance and last a hell of a lot longer and
are a hell of a lot easier to maintain if they require that.

P.S. I don't like noise.

There is no noise with one that's well designed.

Draughts?


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Polynesia -- memory loss in parrots.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

They don't switch off as soon as there is no radiator on.

Mine does,

We'll see...

I have a room stat.

A single stat aint gunna tell you when no radiator is on.

I don't use only TRVs to stop the flow. I use
a room stat, so the boiler and pump go off too.

Pity about when some of the rooms like the bathroom still
need heat even when the main room doesn't anymore.

I don't tend to close doors much, but
those I do, I have a room stat each side.

You are completely irrelevant to boiler system design.

I have a room stat for each area which will be separated by doors.
If I didn't have enough room stats, I'd leave the TRV on full where
there is a room stat, and use the TRV for the non-stated room.

Then you can still have a situation where all the radiators are off
and the room stat hasn't decided to turn the boiler and pump off.

No,

Yep.

because there is a radiator in the room with the stats
which is controlled only by thee stats, not it's own valve.

Not viable for most houses.

Your tiny little hovel is completely irrelevant to boiler system design.

I don't understand people without one.

The location of the pump has to allow for
whatever is seen on that question of room stats.

Particularly with wireless room stats that can have battery
failure or just lose contact with the control system.

You need to buy a better stat.

Easier said than done.

Or stop ****ing about with wireless.

No thanks, they are very convenient.

Its silly to give up the convenience so that the boiler
and pump can shut down when no radiator is on in
the rare event of a warm burst in otherwise cool
enough weather to still need some heating.

And the system needs to be designed so that it continues to
work well whatever the owner chooses to do stat wise anyway.

Its stupid to do it so that wireless stats cant be used.

Running the pump and boiler when you need no heat is insane.

Yes, but if the no need for heat is relatively short term
due to an unseasonal patch of warmer weather during
the day doesn't mean that it makes any sense to shut
down the boiler completely. It may still need some heat
at night etc or when the unseasonally warm ending.

Er WHAT?!?!?! The boiler isn't a nuclear power
station, it can come back on as soon as it's needed.

But wont necessarily do that if the room stat has decided
that there is no need for heating, but the room on the non
sunny side of the house or the lossy-est room needs heat.

You put the stat in the room that needs most heat,

There is no such place in some houses. That varys
with the time of year and weather with some houses.

and use TRVs to limit the heat in the rooms that need less.

Again, it aint that black and white with some houses.

It's like leaving your car engine running all the time.

Nothing like in fact. There will always be some times
of the year when you don't need any heating in the
warmest part of the day, but do again at night etc.

And why would I want the boiler burning away
wasting gas and heating the room with the boiler in it

It wont do that with a well designed system.

I've yet to see a boiler that doesn't get hot.

Doesn't have to heat the place its in tho.

Mine doesn't.

Nope, not when the pump is designed to
handle the temp when all the radiators are off.

It might be designed to handle it sometimes, not continuously.

Have fun spelling out how that is done with a pump.

Obviously anything that wears out with heat
will wear out quicker if it has this heat for longer.

And if the pump is designed to handle
the heat, it doesn't wear out with heat.

Why can you not understand that heat for a short time
wears something out less than heat for a long time?

There is nothing to 'understand'. Even you should be able
to grasp that the piping to the radiators doesn't wear out
any faster just because it has hot water in for longer.

The pipes don't wear out with heat and its perfectly
possible to design the pump so that it doesn't too.

Pipes are not mechanical objects creating
their own heat which needs to be lost.

If the pump is designed to handle the higher temps
seen when its on the supply side of the system, it
wont necessarily last any longer on the return side
of the system with a properly designed pump.

Cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

Which do you believe lasts longer?

Irrelevant to where the pump is located with most systems.

You stated that cars are nothing like boiler pumps life wise.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

Rocket science isn't very complicated,

Try telling that to North Korea that has just
had their go bang very spectacularly indeed.

The yanks did too early on as well.

that phrase should be brain surgeon.

Brain surgery is even less complicated, you just open up the
head and cut away. Even you should be able to manage that.

So which do you think lasts longer?

As silly as asking whether cars or humans last longer.

Humans are nothing like cars life wise either.

Answer the question.

I did.