My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

Because they work better there.

Thats why bore pumps are immersible pumps, they work better that way.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:51:36 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better? There is a big difference between the temperatures.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

What's the German word for Vaseline?
Vienerslide.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better?

Both.

There is a big difference between the temperatures.

Not really.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:36:53 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better?

Both.

There is a big difference between the temperatures.

Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch the pipe, and the return is body temperature.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kick boxing.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Enough cooler or enough better?

Both.

There is a big difference between the temperatures.

Not really.

There is on mine, the flow is too hot to touch the pipe, and the return is body temperature.

Thats not enough to matter, because the pump has to be able to handle
the maximum temp the water can be when all the radiators are turned off etc.

On Apr 11, 9:51*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.
Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Not by enough to matter.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

Because they work better there.

Thats why bore pumps are immersible pumps, they work better that way.

More drivel.

Pumps are down the borehole because they can't suck more then 10
meters of water or so.

It's possible to have the pump on the surface powering an injector
down the borehole too.

On 11/04/2012 9:51 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.


every install I have done .. pump has been on return ... was told this
is considered good install practise, because you have a choice and it
makes sense to pump the cooler water.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:16:42 +0100, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which
must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Jim K

Jim K wrote:
Why are most pumps on the flow side?
so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found pushing things
to be easier that pulling them.

JGH

"jgharston" wrote in message
...
Jim K wrote:
Why are most pumps on the flow side?
so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found pushing things
to be easier that pulling them.

Especially when pulling water, then it might be more than psychological.

--
Bartc

"jgharston" wrote in message
...
Jim K wrote:
Why are most pumps on the flow side?
so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found pushing things
to be easier that pulling them.

You should try it with a dog on a lead

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:34:54 -0700 (PDT), jgharston
wrote:

Jim K wrote:
Why are most pumps on the flow side?
so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found pushing things
to be easier that pulling them.

Surely on a closed system that's all relative. If the pump is on the
'return' side you're really 'pushing' the water through the boiler?

All you're actually doing is moving the water, wherever you have the
pump.

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote
jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found
pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

Surely on a closed system that's all relative. If the pump is on the
'return' side you're really 'pushing' the water through the boiler?

Sure, but the bulk of the resistance to flow is in the plumbing to the
radiators and back, not the boiler.

There's a reason bore pumps are immersion pumps.

River pumps are located at the river for a reason too.

Even tho both are harder to do with the pump at the source.

All you're actually doing is moving the water, wherever you have the pump.

Yes, but water pumps work best when pumping against
the highest resistance to flow, rather than sucking on it.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:53:47 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

Frank Erskine wrote
jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found
pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

Surely on a closed system that's all relative. If the pump is on the
'return' side you're really 'pushing' the water through the boiler?

Sure, but the bulk of the resistance to flow is in the plumbing to the
radiators and back, not the boiler.

There's a reason bore pumps are immersion pumps.

River pumps are located at the river for a reason too.

Even tho both are harder to do with the pump at the source.

All you're actually doing is moving the water, wherever you have the pump.

Yes, but water pumps work best when pumping against
the highest resistance to flow, rather than sucking on it.

Again, for a 'closed' system the resistance is the same wherever you
measure it. No "sucking" is involved since the (positive pressure)
pump, wherever it is, merely propels the water through an effectively
one-way system.
It doesn't care where heat is being added to or dissipated.

--
Frank Erskine

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Frank Erskine wrote
jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found
pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

Surely on a closed system that's all relative. If the pump is on the
'return' side you're really 'pushing' the water through the boiler?

Sure, but the bulk of the resistance to flow is in the plumbing to the
radiators and back, not the boiler.

There's a reason bore pumps are immersion pumps.

River pumps are located at the river for a reason too.

Even tho both are harder to do with the pump at the source.

All you're actually doing is moving the water, wherever you have the
pump.

Yes, but water pumps work best when pumping against
the highest resistance to flow, rather than sucking on it.

http://www.postfunnypics.com/?q=gallery&g2_itemId=759

jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological,

It isnt with pumps.

but I've always found pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

And that works much better with pumps.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:37:19 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological,

It isnt with pumps.

but I've always found pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

And that works much better with pumps.

But not with people. Try pushing a piece of furniture without wheels. Now try pulling it. Pulling tends to lift it, pushing pushes it into the ground and it won't budge so easily.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

When there's a will, I want to be in it!

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
jgharston wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological,

It isnt with pumps.

but I've always found pushing things to be easier that pulling them.

And that works much better with pumps.

But not with people. Try pushing a piece of furniture without
wheels. Now try pulling it. Pulling tends to lift it, pushing
pushes it into the ground and it won't budge so easily.

And with string in spades, pushing is hopeless.

Not relevant to a boiler pump tho.

Lieutenant Scott wrote:
But not with people.*Try pushing a piece of furniture without wheels.
*Now try pulling it.

There's nothing to hold onto to pull it. I tend to move furniture
by sitting on the floor and bracing myself against the wall and
expanding my legs to push the furniture away from the bracing.
Trying to pull just ends up with me contracting away from both
the wall and the furniture.

JGH

jgharston wrote:
Jim K wrote:
Why are most pumps on the flow side?
so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

It may be psychological, but I've always found pushing things
to be easier that pulling them.

Women?

--
Adam

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:55:56 +0100, Jim K wrote:

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:16:42 +0100, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which
must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump, I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

The state of Texas has executed yet another inmate. But Unforeseen legal issues have arisen. The state has killed so many people this year, it must now register as a tobacco company.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

On 11/04/2012 23:40, Rod Speed wrote:
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.


It's a closed circuit. Pump and resistance to flow. The resistance is
made up of the resistance of the boiler added to the resistance of the
radiators. It doesn't matter what order they are in. (Ohm's law would
seem to apply here)

Pumping in an open circuit e.g. bore holes and rivers is different in
that there is a maximum suck head of about 30' but as much push head as
you can engineer.

Pete

Pete Shew wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

It's a closed circuit. Pump and resistance to flow. The resistance is made up of the resistance of the boiler added to
the resistance of the radiators. It doesn't matter what order they are in.

It does when the bulk of the resistance is on the pump outlet side.

You arent as likely to get cavitation on the inlet side with the pump
on the outgoing side.

(Ohm's law would seem to apply here)

Not to where cavitation can occur it doesnt.

Pumping in an open circuit e.g. bore holes and rivers is different in that there is a maximum suck head of about 30'
but as much push head as you can engineer.

Sure, buit there is a sense in which the suck head still applys with cavitation.

And there is also the bleed to get the air out to consider with a boiler too.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:40:50 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

But if you think about it, the pump is still pushing into the flow pipe as it was before. It's just that the boiler is now in the way. Unless the boiler piping makes that much difference?

Imagine the pump kept where it is, but move the boiler to the other side of it. Would you still draw the same conclusion?

And remember we're not turning the pump round, the water still goes the same way.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

I would defend the liberty of consenting adult creationists to practice whatever intellectual perversions they like in the privacy of their own homes; but it is also necessary to protect the young and innocent. -- Arthur C. Clarke

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Jim K wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))

Less mess though!

True.

I'm not so sure anyway, all you're doing effectively is moving the boiler the other side of the pump,

Yes, but water pumps pump better than they suck, thats why bore pumps are immersion pumps.

I can't see the pressure being much different anywhere.

The pressure is obviously lower on the suction side of the pump, thats the whole point of a pump.

All you've dropped the pressure by is the resistance of the boiler piping.

Yes, but pumps pump better than they suck.

But if you think about it, the pump is still pushing into the flow pipe as it was before. It's just that the boiler
is now in the way. Unless the boiler piping makes that much difference?

There is a lot more resistance to flow in the radiators and their piping than in the boiler.

Imagine the pump kept where it is, but move the boiler to the other side of it. Would you still draw the same
conclusion?

Yep.

And remember we're not turning the pump round, the water still goes the same way.

Sure.

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:55:56 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:16:42 +0100, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which
must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

so you get spottable leaks out rather than air sucked in? ;))


Would that not depend more on where the pressure vessel is located relative to the pump, rather than where the boiler is located?

Robert

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:16:42 PM UTC+1, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

The pressure throughout (most of) the system changes when the pump runs, higher at the pump discharge, lowest at the pump inlet obviously. The point of no pressure change (PNPC) is where the expansion vessel is connected (assuming a sealed system; the pressure at the expansion vessel doesn't change and its water content doesn't change.

It's best practice to pump away from the expansion vessel, since the pressure throughout the system then increases ith the pump on. It makes cavitation and the release of dissolved air less likely, as well as negative pressures air being drawn in through leaks. The temperature doesn't much affect the pump location.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:41:39 +0100, Onetap wrote:

On Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:16:42 PM UTC+1, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

The pressure throughout (most of) the system changes when the pump runs, higher at the pump discharge, lowest at the pump inlet obviously. The point of no pressure change (PNPC) is where the expansion vessel is connected (assuming a sealed system; the pressure at the expansion vessel doesn't change and its water content doesn't change.

It's best practice to pump away from the expansion vessel, since the pressure throughout the system then increases ith the pump on. It makes cavitation and the release of dissolved air less likely, as well as negative pressures air being drawn in through leaks. The temperature doesn't much affect the pump location.

Ah well, this is not a closed system. I have an expansion tank which is open at the top.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Interesting fact number 184:
In ancient China, people committed suicide by eating a pound of salt.

On Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:11:52 AM UTC+1, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Ah well, this is not a closed system. I have an expansion tank which is open at the top.

Same thing, with gravity rather than compressed air providing the pressure.
The PNPC is the connection point of the F&E tank. The water level in the tank won't change on starting/stopping the pump, only by expansion and contraction. Pump away from PNPC, usually.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 00:18:44 +0100, Onetap wrote:

On Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:11:52 AM UTC+1, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Ah well, this is not a closed system. I have an expansion tank which is open at the top.

Same thing, with gravity rather than compressed air providing the pressure.
The PNPC is the connection point of the F&E tank. The water level in the tank won't change on starting/stopping the pump, only by expansion and contraction. Pump away from PNPC, usually.

That makes sense. But how about placing the F&E tank on the return aswell? Or should that be on the flow to absorb bubbling over from the boiler getting too hot?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

TEACHER: Clyde, your composition on "My Dog" is exactly the same as your brother's. Did you copy his?
CLYDE : No, sir. It's the same dog.

Onetap wrote:
*It's best practice to pump away from the expansion vessel,

Ah! That explains why my old CH system gurgled and squirted into
the expansion tank every time the pump turned on. It started
after the pump was replaced and I have half a suspicion it was
put on backwards as the access to the cupboard was such a pig.

JGH

On Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:33:54 AM UTC+1, jgharston wrote:
Onetap wrote:
*It's best practice to pump away from the expansion vessel,

Ah! That explains why my old CH system gurgled and squirted into
the expansion tank every time the pump turned on. It started
after the pump was replaced and I have half a suspicion it was
put on backwards as the access to the cupboard was such a pig.

JGH

It was common practice to connect the cold feed on the return side of the boiler and the open vent on the flow side. This allowed water into the boiler and steam out, at the same time, if it boiled, as solid fuel boilers did.. The boilers were cast iron with big waterways and negligible pressure difference between flow and return at the design flow rate.

This doesn't work with most modern boilers, there is a significant pressure difference across the boilers due to the narrow waterways and the difference in the head can cause pumping over.

On Apr 11, 8:16*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which must be better for it.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

..

In days of yore. it was normal to put them on the return, it was
cooler for the motor and reduced possibilty of cavitation in the
boiler.

The thinking is now that postive pressure on the radiators reduces the
chance of air being drawn down valve stems, so it goes in the flow.

This is more important with sealed systems, there is nowhere for the
air to go.

harry wrote:

The thinking is now that postive pressure on the radiators reduces the
chance of air being drawn down valve stems, so it goes in the flow.

With negative pressure, if you try to bleed the radiators with
the pump running, you hear air hissing but the water never
spurts...

ISTR that there is also, on open systems, a tendency to pumping
over if the pump is incorrectly sited.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which
must be better for it.

While it is true that pumps can rely on the circulating water for some
"cooling", cooling to typical boiler flow temperatures is more than
adequate.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

In reality it does not really make much difference. Its in effect a
closed system. However it often more convenient since its a place you
know the full flow is concentrated into one pipe. You may have several
return pipes that join at various places, and you don't want a pump in a
partial loop, rather than the full system.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

Seems to make more sense, as the pump is pumping cooler water, which
must be better for it.

While it is true that pumps can rely on the circulating water for some
"cooling", cooling to typical boiler flow temperatures is more than
adequate.

Why are most pumps on the flow side?

In reality it does not really make much difference. Its in effect a
closed system. However it often more convenient since its a place you
know the full flow is concentrated into one pipe. You may have several
return pipes that join at various places, and you don't want a pump in a
partial loop, rather than the full system.

There is only ONE pipe going into and out of the boiler. The pump can go on either of those. The feeds and returns both split in equal numbers.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Black holes are where god divided by zero.

Lieutenant Scott wrote:


Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's what vented means...
--
Tim Watts

On 12/04/2012 15:15, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:14:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/04/2012 20:16, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

My central heating pump is on the flow side, but a friend told me his is
on the return.

(With vented systems, you also need a little care in selecting the
position relative to the feed and expansion pipes since you don't want
the pump sucking gobs of air into the system down the vent pipe on
startup. (the reason a combined feed and vent works better))

Not sure what you mean by "vented". Mine has an expansion tank fitted
which is full of water (and refills from the main with a ballcock should
you lose any water to leaks or over bleed radiators).

That's a vented system. The alternative is a sealed system, with no
tank, a filling loop and pressure gauge, and an expansion vessel.

--
Cheers,

John.

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