In message
, NT
writes
On Oct 22, 10:24*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *NT wrote:

Thanks everyone - an oil-filled rad with thermostat I think it is then! *
:-)
Thats nearly the worst of all options. Not only are plugin electrics
the most expensive to run, but the low power output and lack of fan
mean it'll need to be switched on a while before the room's used,
wasting even more money.

The room is warmed by the central heating morning and evening when the
rest of the house is in use. All that's needed is to maintain that
temperature during the day. And all electric heaters are 100% efficient.
Apart from a fan heater where the fan uses extra energy. ;-)

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.


I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.
--
Chris French

On 22 Oct,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

fan heaters are also 100% efficient, all the input energy ends up as
heat.

Really? Yours are totally silent are they?


And what happens to the noise---- It turns into heat!


--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

The room is warmed by the central heating morning and evening when the
rest of the house is in use. All that's needed is to maintain that
temperature during the day. And all electric heaters are 100%
efficient. Apart from a fan heater where the fan uses extra energy. ;-)

fan heaters are also 100% efficient, all the input energy ends up as
heat.

Not so. They make a noise which takes energy, and moving air around also.

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
The room is warmed by the central heating morning and evening when the
rest of the house is in use. All that's needed is to maintain that
temperature during the day. And all electric heaters are 100% efficient.
Apart from a fan heater where the fan uses extra energy. ;-)

and where do you think that extra energy ends up?

It make a noise for a start.

and you can only claim the 100% efficiency if you start measuring after
the 60% loss in the power stations and whatever it is in the supply
network. (I learned a few days ago that our overhead HV conductors run
at around 90-100C.)

Was talking about the end user part. In the same way as you'd measure a
boiler efficiency.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
NT wrote:
Very expensive mod to zone off this one room from the rest of the house.

It would cost, but can be done quite cheaply.

Maybe at installation time, but pretty expensive afterwards. If you're
paying for labour.

Portable heating would add cost too, mainly in greater fuel cost.

Capital cost are low.


And a normal boiler might run at reduced efficiency when just heating
one small room.

not by much

We don't know what boiler the OP has. Older ones can be horribly
inefficient when working at a small part of capacity.

--
*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/10/2011 16:23, Dave wrote:


What's the best way (and by that I think I mean the cheapest way) of
heating just one room? We have a box room that I'm going to set up as an
office as I'm now going to be working from home. I assume that the way
NOT to do it is have the full house central heating on and turn down (or
off?) the TRVs in all the other rooms?

It's a 1960s semi-detached dormer (chalet) bungalow with one external
wall being "normal" brick/cavity/brick, the other external wall has the
window and has (I think) inner plasterboard/wood frame/outer tile
construction and the other two walls are standard stud walls.

In case anyone was going to suggest one of those stand-alone gas
heaters, I assume it would have to go on the brick wall but due to the
room layout, that wall is the best choice for the desk and shelving so
I'm afraid that's a non-starter.


When my central heating broke, I used a (portable) Calor Gas heater for
months. It was very economical and toasty warm and of course it's PAYG.

In article , chris French
writes
In message
, NT

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.

I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.

Agreed, assuming a 1kW rad in a small room even a modulating boiler will
be short cycling its arse off every few minutes, warming up the boiler
and pipes with all that doing to waste.

It could work nicely with a thermal store system but not everyone has
one of those and fewer still have the circuits separated enough to
permit this kind of operation.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

On 22/10/11 12:47, NT wrote:
On Oct 22, 10:24 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
NT wrote:

Thanks everyone - an oil-filled rad with thermostat I think it is then!
:-)
Thats nearly the worst of all options. Not only are plugin electrics
the most expensive to run, but the low power output and lack of fan
mean it'll need to be switched on a while before the room's used,
wasting even more money.

The room is warmed by the central heating morning and evening when the
rest of the house is in use. All that's needed is to maintain that
temperature during the day. And all electric heaters are 100% efficient.
Apart from a fan heater where the fan uses extra energy. ;-)

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.

possibly 85% at the transfer of energy to hot water in the boiler, but
there is a lot to lose circulating in pipes to heat one radiator.

Also worth taking into account the benefits of a good south facing
window on sunny winter days. I find sunlight and the output from various
computers and the occasional boiling kettle keep my workroom warm enough
most winter days.

"NT" wrote in message
...

How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

he has a cr@ppy boiler system that doesn't deliver the heat to the
destination.
I have an (old) low water content system with zones and insulated pipes.
my system will heat a single room with no trouble.
It doesn't modulate at all and the only time it may waste a small amount of
heat is after the room stat has closed the zone valve.
It keeps that heat in the insulated pipes and it may be used if a zone valve
opens.

dennis@home wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
NT wrote:
The central heating will be far cheaper for a given amount of heat
than any plugin or portable heater. Gas is about 1/3 the price of
electricity per kWh. If you're not working in the room with the
thermostat, you'd best get a wireless stat. Better still would be to
set the system up with a 2nd zone.

Very expensive mod to zone off this one room from the rest of the
house. And a normal boiler might run at reduced efficiency when just
heating one small room.

Shh, don't tell mine, it runs six five zones as small as one room.


My boiler does a sixty nine in any room I ask her to.

--
Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

The room is warmed by the central heating morning and evening when the
rest of the house is in use. All that's needed is to maintain that
temperature during the day. And all electric heaters are 100%
efficient. Apart from a fan heater where the fan uses extra energy. ;-)

fan heaters are also 100% efficient, all the input energy ends up as
heat.

Not so. They make a noise which takes energy, and moving air around also.

Both of which end up as heat.
As does the light from the On switch.

They are 100% efficient the same as the oil filled radiator/ radiant heater.

On 21 Oct, 16:23, Dave wrote:
What's the best way (and by that I think I mean the cheapest way) of
heating just one room? We have a box room that I'm going to set up as an
office as I'm now going to be working from home. I assume that the way
NOT to do it is have the full house central heating on and turn down (or
off?) the TRVs in all the other rooms?

It's a 1960s semi-detached dormer (chalet) bungalow with one external
wall being "normal" brick/cavity/brick, the other external wall has the
window and has (I think) inner plasterboard/wood frame/outer tile
construction and the other two walls are standard stud walls.

In case anyone was going to suggest one of those stand-alone gas
heaters, I assume it would have to go on the brick wall but due to the
room layout, that wall is the best choice for the desk and shelving so
I'm afraid that's a non-starter.

TIA

I would look at insulating the room better as well
I agree with those that opt for a simple thermostat controlled Ikw
electric heater (it will probably be 2 or 3 but with switches to vary)
and they can be got for less than £30 at the right stores
I work in such an office
Key things are
window seals properly draft stripped
external walls insulated
internal walls if stud insulated in the middle and if not lose an inch
put on PU foam plus plasterboard
curtain over door
snug as a bug in a rug

The moment the sun hits you thru the window it will get HOT.

Chris

"Maria" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2011 16:23, Dave wrote:


What's the best way (and by that I think I mean the cheapest way) of
heating just one room? We have a box room that I'm going to set up as an
office as I'm now going to be working from home. I assume that the way
NOT to do it is have the full house central heating on and turn down (or
off?) the TRVs in all the other rooms?

It's a 1960s semi-detached dormer (chalet) bungalow with one external
wall being "normal" brick/cavity/brick, the other external wall has the
window and has (I think) inner plasterboard/wood frame/outer tile
construction and the other two walls are standard stud walls.

In case anyone was going to suggest one of those stand-alone gas
heaters, I assume it would have to go on the brick wall but due to the
room layout, that wall is the best choice for the desk and shelving so
I'm afraid that's a non-starter.


When my central heating broke, I used a (portable) Calor Gas heater for
months. It was very economical and toasty warm and of course it's PAYG.


Calor costs a fortune. Its the most expensive way to heat anything that I
can think of.
You obviously didn't need much heat and could have used an electric fan
heater for less cost.

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs. Open the bidding
at (say) 5 quid a week and be willing to settle for 2.
Also tell them that keeping office equipment on for 40 hours a week
will cost you money, and you'd like that back as well, please.

I'd guess that the house is otherwise occupied, so the amount of cool-
down during the day shoudn't be that high. You might even be able to
get by with just putting on a pullover and keeping the doors closed.

In article , noone_you-
says...

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs. Open the bidding
at (say) 5 quid a week and be willing to settle for 2.
Also tell them that keeping office equipment on for 40 hours a week
will cost you money, and you'd like that back as well, please.

I'd guess that the house is otherwise occupied, so the amount of cool-
down during the day shoudn't be that high. You might even be able to
get by with just putting on a pullover and keeping the doors closed.

Going self-employed so that idea's a non-starter I'm afraid :-)

I don't mind sticking on an extra jumper or even two but don't want to
end up like the Michelin man. I'll be doing long periods at the desk
rather than lots of energetic moving about, so hands and feet were one
area of concern. Anyway, been and bought a 2kW thermostatic oil-filled
leccy radiator today so I'm now sorted :-)
Oh, and for those who were wondering, we've got a condensing combi in
the loft.

In article ,
says...

On 21/10/2011 16:23, Dave wrote:


What's the best way (and by that I think I mean the cheapest way) of
heating just one room? We have a box room that I'm going to set up as an
office as I'm now going to be working from home. I assume that the way
NOT to do it is have the full house central heating on and turn down (or
off?) the TRVs in all the other rooms?

It's a 1960s semi-detached dormer (chalet) bungalow with one external
wall being "normal" brick/cavity/brick, the other external wall has the
window and has (I think) inner plasterboard/wood frame/outer tile
construction and the other two walls are standard stud walls.

In case anyone was going to suggest one of those stand-alone gas
heaters, I assume it would have to go on the brick wall but due to the
room layout, that wall is the best choice for the desk and shelving so
I'm afraid that's a non-starter.

For this application a heat pump aircon unit will make a good deal of
sense. The air handler can be high up on a wall out of the way. Running
costs comparable to using gas, quick warm up as with a fan heater, plus
the ability to cool in the summer for when the office get too warm from
computers etc.

Thanks John. That's something I may well look into for the longer-term.

In article ,
Dave wrote:
In article , noone_you-
says...

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs. Open the bidding
at (say) 5 quid a week and be willing to settle for 2.
Also tell them that keeping office equipment on for 40 hours a week
will cost you money, and you'd like that back as well, please.

I'd guess that the house is otherwise occupied, so the amount of cool-
down during the day shoudn't be that high. You might even be able to
get by with just putting on a pullover and keeping the doors closed.

Going self-employed so that idea's a non-starter I'm afraid :-)

You can claim a little bit of tax back though. I can't remember the rules
off the top of my head, but every little helps...

Gordon

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Really? Yours are totally silent are they?

sound energy ends up as heat, too.

So why do my ears not melt?


--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

NT wrote:

How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

You're still having to use electricity to run the pump and of course all the
control circuitry in the boiler.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

"Jeremy Nicoll - news posts" wrote
in message nvalid...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Really? Yours are totally silent are they?

sound energy ends up as heat, too.

So why do my ears not melt?

They will with enough sound.

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Really? Yours are totally silent are they?

sound energy ends up as heat, too.

So why do my ears not melt?


Because there is less than a watt of acoustic energy in 120dbA sound
pressure which will split your eardrums first.

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:02:54 +0100, Dave wrote:

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs.the doors
closed.

Going self-employed so that idea's a non-starter I'm afraid :-)

No it's not, "use of home as office" IIRC my accountant puts down
£150 for that against tax.

There are other things to consider as well, there was a thread that
covered quite a few things resonably recently have a google.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
says...

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:02:54 +0100, Dave wrote:

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs.the doors
closed.

Going self-employed so that idea's a non-starter I'm afraid :-)

No it's not, "use of home as office" IIRC my accountant puts down
£150 for that against tax.

There are other things to consider as well, there was a thread that
covered quite a few things resonably recently have a google.

Cheers Gordon and Dave, nice to know I can get something from the taxman
:-)

"Dave" wrote in message
m...
In article o.uk,
says...

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:02:54 +0100, Dave wrote:

Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs.the doors
closed.

Going self-employed so that idea's a non-starter I'm afraid :-)

No it's not, "use of home as office" IIRC my accountant puts down
£150 for that against tax.

There are other things to consider as well, there was a thread that
covered quite a few things resonably recently have a google.

Cheers Gordon and Dave, nice to know I can get something from the taxman
:-)

Don't forget the business rates you may have to pay.
Take it in one hand and take it again in the other is their motto.

In article ,
Dave wrote:
No it's not, "use of home as office" IIRC my accountant puts down
£150 for that against tax.

There are other things to consider as well, there was a thread that
covered quite a few things resonably recently have a google.

Cheers Gordon and Dave, nice to know I can get something from the taxman
:-)

If you're going self employed, find yourself a good accountant. Ask other
people doing the same job as you who they use. He or she will save you far
more than they cost.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Oct 22, 6:50*pm, fred wrote:
In article , chris French
writes

In message
, NT

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.

I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.

Agreed, assuming a 1kW rad in a small room even a modulating boiler will
be short cycling its arse off every few minutes, warming up the boiler
and pipes with all that doing to waste.

It could work nicely with a thermal store system but not everyone has
one of those and fewer still have the circuits separated enough to
permit this kind of operation.

Even if 50% of the heat is lost in the pipework to the rest of the
house, most of that heat is saved come evening time. So efficiency is
still fairly high.


NT

On Oct 22, 4:45*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Oct 22, 1:55 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Oct 21, 8:39 pm, Dave wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article ,
* *Dave wrote:
What's the best way (and by that I think I mean the cheapest way) of
heating just one room? We have a box room that I'm going to set up as an
office as I'm now going to be working from home. I assume that the way
NOT to do it is have the full house central heating on and turn down (or
off?) the TRVs in all the other rooms?
It's a 1960s semi-detached dormer (chalet) bungalow with one external
wall being "normal" brick/cavity/brick, the other external wall has the
window and has (I think) inner plasterboard/wood frame/outer tile
construction and the other two walls are standard stud walls.
In case anyone was going to suggest one of those stand-alone gas
heaters, I assume it would have to go on the brick wall but due to the
room layout, that wall is the best choice for the desk and shelving so
I'm afraid that's a non-starter.
Assuming you heat the house morning and evening as with normal occupation
but out at work all day, a small electric fan heater on a thermostat
should have no trouble keeping it topped up. Or a similar oil filled rad
if you don't like the noise of a fan heater.
Thanks everyone - an oil-filled rad with thermostat I think it is then! *
:-)
Thats nearly the worst of all options. Not only are plugin electrics
the most expensive to run, but the low power output and lack of fan
mean it'll need to be switched on a while before the room's used,
wasting even more money.
Rubbish.
The BIG costs are heating HUGE spaces that is unavoidable unless you are
zoned to the hilt and even then running a whole house boiler to heat
just one room is crappily inefficient.

Its FAR cheaper to heat a smaller space with expensive electricity than
to try and modulate a whole house boiler down to do it and zone it
accordingly..

NT

How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

TRV set to off still means hot water going round pipes. Plenty of losses
there. even if lagged.

Its not lost, its moved from primary circuit to the main house. Nearly
all of that heat will be saved come evening when the main house is
heated up.

The boiler will inevitably short cycle leading to hugely reduced
efficiency - raw fuel chucked out the back before it fires... and heat

maybe half a second's worth of heat out of a (guess) 1 minute firing
for a small rad. 0.75% loss.


being lost in the boiler room itself as the boiler has to heat up, then
cool down, then heat up....

again its heat transferred to the main house, and almost all saved
come evening time.


All about using systems in ways they were not designed to cope with.

they are entirely designed to cope with this.


Not to mention the fact that if the master stat is NOT in the office,
the boiler will stay *pumping all the time.

Clearly for functional control a stat is needed in the room. Even if
due to some fault it ran all the time, 15-30w used and turned to heat
versus a tiny 1kW rad would only mean that 1.5-3% of the heat is
derived from electricity.


If you consider that there is a fixed heat loss from the system via the
pipes, and a fixed amount of fuel lost when it starts up, you can see
that at very low outputs its nearly ALL being lost, and almost no output.

Clearly not

Of course unless the pipes run through the loft the heat will end up in
the house as a whole, but that is not what we are considering. We don't
want to heat the house, just one room.

Its a tsndar problem of modulating heat systems: There are fixed losses.
If iy wamp them by using high oputputs, they are insignificant. If you
throttle back they become very significant.

Guess why a 3 liter car no matter how efficient never returns the same
MPG even in a light body as a 1200 engine..the BIG engine has BIG
frictional losses. Its efficient enough at 100bhp but its woeful at 30bhp..

There are other bigger reasons at work there.


NT

On Oct 22, 9:01*pm, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
wrote:
NT wrote:
How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

You're still having to use electricity to run the pump and of course all the
control circuitry in the boiler.

yes, 15-30w some of the time for over 1kW out. Its trivial.


NT

In article
, NT
writes
On Oct 22, 6:50*pm, fred wrote:
In article , chris French
writes

In message
,
NT

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.

I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.

Agreed, assuming a 1kW rad in a small room even a modulating boiler will
be short cycling its arse off every few minutes, warming up the boiler
and pipes with all that doing to waste.

It could work nicely with a thermal store system but not everyone has
one of those and fewer still have the circuits separated enough to
permit this kind of operation.

Even if 50% of the heat is lost in the pipework to the rest of the
house, most of that heat is saved come evening time. So efficiency is
still fairly high.

The whole object is to avoid heating the rest of the house. Why would
this waste heat hang around until the evening? I expect the energy will
have dispersed to the ether long before then.

Either way I don't see that as the main issue, I view it as bad practice
to design a system that will repeatedly short cycle a boiler. I designed
my system for a long slow burn to avoid the thermal stresses that
repeated cycling inevitably brings and I hope to reap the benefits of
this in a longer system life.

Besides that, the o/p's existing system does not currently support this
mode of operation requiring capital investment in redesign, controls and
rework of plumbing. It appears to me that he is looking for a simpler
fix than this.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

On Oct 23, 11:55*am, NT wrote:
On Oct 22, 9:01*pm, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

wrote:
NT wrote:
How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

You're still having to use electricity to run the pump and of course all the
control circuitry in the boiler.

yes, 15-30w some of the time for over 1kW out. Its trivial.

NT

170W for my boiler + heat losses in the pipes + extra wear and tear on
the heating system.

Is it really worth it when an electric heater will only need to run
for a couple of minutes an hour to top up the heat in a small room
with other heat producing equipment (PC + printer + lights + ADSL
router + power bricks for phones etc and a UPS in my case)

That said, so far this year is turning out quite warm. We've only
needed the heating switch on for a couple of days last week. This
weekend it is warm again and heating not needed again!

Philip

NT wrote:
On Oct 22, 6:50 pm, fred wrote:
In article , chris French
writes

In message
, NT
100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.
I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.
Agreed, assuming a 1kW rad in a small room even a modulating boiler will
be short cycling its arse off every few minutes, warming up the boiler
and pipes with all that doing to waste.

It could work nicely with a thermal store system but not everyone has
one of those and fewer still have the circuits separated enough to
permit this kind of operation.

Even if 50% of the heat is lost in the pipework to the rest of the
house, most of that heat is saved come evening time. So efficiency is
still fairly high.


Not in the case where you weren't going to heat that art of the house
anyway.

Follow your logic, and you might as well heat the whole house 24x7.


NT

wrote:
On Oct 23, 11:55 am, NT wrote:
On Oct 22, 9:01 pm, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

wrote:
NT wrote:
How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?
You're still having to use electricity to run the pump and of course all the
control circuitry in the boiler.
yes, 15-30w some of the time for over 1kW out. Its trivial.

NT

170W for my boiler + heat losses in the pipes + extra wear and tear on
the heating system.

Is it really worth it when an electric heater will only need to run
for a couple of minutes an hour to top up the heat in a small room
with other heat producing equipment (PC + printer + lights + ADSL
router + power bricks for phones etc and a UPS in my case)

That said, so far this year is turning out quite warm. We've only
needed the heating switch on for a couple of days last week. This
weekend it is warm again and heating not needed again!

Philip

Ice age on the way ;-)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/ice_age/

In article ,
root writes:
Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs. Open the bidding

You can do that, but it comes with a giant warning...
The portion of the house you use for work becomes liable for
capital gains tax when you sell. It's never worth doing
if it's your house. In any case, you're saving money and
stress by not traveling to work.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
says...

In article ,
root writes:
Since you'll be working at/from home it's not unreasonable to ask
you employer to chip in for the extra heating costs. Open the bidding

You can do that, but it comes with a giant warning...
The portion of the house you use for work becomes liable for
capital gains tax when you sell. It's never worth doing
if it's your house. In any case, you're saving money and
stress by not traveling to work.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out Andrew - crafty scrotes! :-)

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:02:43 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Don't forget the business rates you may have to pay.

That's why you don't dedicate a room completely to "work" it will
always have a domestic use as well. So don't take the guest bed out
of it etc...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:30:29 +0100, Dave wrote:

You can do that, but it comes with a giant warning...
The portion of the house you use for work becomes liable for
capital gains tax when you sell.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out Andrew - crafty scrotes! :-)

There is an anual CGT allowance, somewhere between 5 and 10k IIRC.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:22:25 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

If you're going self employed, find yourself a good accountant. Ask
other people doing the same job as you who they use. He or she will save
you far more than they cost.

Agreed it may also be worth looking for an accounant who specialises
in tax matters rather than just "an accountant". BTW you don't get
them to do your books just take your books and produce the tax return
(and audit if your turnover is high enough).

Another thing to do is go on a "starting in business" course. Check
out your local business link or similar organisation. It'll give you
a good grounding in what you have to do, what you need to do and the
basics involved in running your own business from structure (sole
trader, partnership, Co-op, Ltd Co.) to record keeping, VAT (register
or not) and so on.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Oct 23, 1:07*pm, fred wrote:
In article
, NT
writes

On Oct 22, 6:50*pm, fred wrote:
In article , chris French
writes

In message
,
NT

100% at 12p/unit versus gas with maybe 85% efficient at 3-4p/unit.

I doubt a gas boiler keeping one rad warm gets anywhere near that.

Agreed, assuming a 1kW rad in a small room even a modulating boiler will
be short cycling its arse off every few minutes, warming up the boiler
and pipes with all that doing to waste.

It could work nicely with a thermal store system but not everyone has
one of those and fewer still have the circuits separated enough to
permit this kind of operation.

Even if 50% of the heat is lost in the pipework to the rest of the
house, most of that heat is saved come evening time. So efficiency is
still fairly high.

The whole object is to avoid heating the rest of the house.

I think the object is to pick the cheapest to run system

Why would
this waste heat hang around until the evening? I expect the energy will
have dispersed to the ether long before then.

If you heat a house to 20 in the morning, and leave the system off
till 6pm, a good 80% of that heat is still retained indoors by then.

Either way I don't see that as the main issue, I view it as bad practice
to design a system that will repeatedly short cycle a boiler. I designed
my system for a long slow burn to avoid the thermal stresses that
repeated cycling inevitably brings and I hope to reap the benefits of
this in a longer system life.

Is thermal cycling a major failure mode in boilers? I didnt think it
was.


Besides that, the o/p's existing system does not currently support this
mode of operation requiring capital investment in redesign, controls and
rework of plumbing. It appears to me that he is looking for a simpler
fix than this.

wireless thermostat.


NT

On Oct 23, 5:54*pm, " wrote:
On Oct 23, 11:55*am, NT wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:01*pm, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

wrote:
NT wrote:
How precisely is it more costly to heat one room with CH, with the
other rooms TRVs set to off? Where are you proposing a large amount of
heat is being lost?

You're still having to use electricity to run the pump and of course all the
control circuitry in the boiler.

yes, 15-30w some of the time for over 1kW out. Its trivial.

NT

170W for my boiler + heat losses in the pipes + extra wear and tear on
the heating system.

those have been addressed further up the thread

Is it really worth it when an electric heater will only need to run
for a couple of minutes an hour to top up the heat in a small room
with other heat producing equipment (PC + printer + lights + ADSL
router + power bricks for phones etc and a UPS in my case)

Last time I did this it took 500w continuous. We dont know how
insulated the OP's room is. If insulation is a practical option, ie
CWI, it would be a better way to spend the money.

That said, so far this year is turning out quite warm. We've only
needed the heating switch on for a couple of days last week. This
weekend it is warm again and heating not needed again!

Philip

On Oct 22, 6:24*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *NT wrote:

Very expensive mod to zone off this one room from the rest of the house.
It would cost, but can be done quite cheaply.

Maybe at installation time, but pretty expensive afterwards. If you're
paying for labour. *

Valve, timer, stat, plus 2nd valve, timer, stat.

Portable heating would add cost too, mainly in greater fuel cost.

Capital cost are low.

sure, but total costs higher.


And a normal boiler might run at reduced efficiency when just heating
one small room.
not by much

We don't know what boiler the OP has. Older ones can be horribly
inefficient when working at a small part of capacity.

If its cast iron, I'd agree. But most of those are gone now. Maybe the
OP can look and see if the boiler heat exchanger is a cast iron lump
or pressed/bent metal.


NT