On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:56:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

stuart noble wrote:

My partner recalls seeing something similar before - but it was wartime
and she also saw the looters shot by passing troops.

Which, if we're honest, is where we're heading.

yep. These poor buggers who simply can't help themselves..

Says who?

They are the living proof that socialism is based on false premises.

Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with this.
--
(\__/) M.
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(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:06:53 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

I wrote my thoughts in this earlier:

https://plus.google.com/106804227975...ts/S5QZMtPvWKj

I'll reproduce it here to save the effort of going the

[snip excellent article]

Very well written and much better than I could have presented it.

It's very unlikely that any of the looters were interested in Duggan.
It was just a spark to trigger the criminality.

I think they need to be tough on these criminals but I'm not sure they
should be punished any more severely than they would for the same
crimes at any other time. And I disagree totally with evictions for
the entire family if one member is accused of rioting or looting.

I agree that anyone convicted of these crimes does not deserve any
state benefits. However removal of these benefits may not actually
help if it leads to more crime.

It could be a good time to invest in prison building though.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:16:39 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 20:00, DavidM wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:14:40 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 12:04, jgharston wrote:
MuddyMike wrote:
We went soft on immigration!

We went hard on immigration. 100 years ago you could move to this
country with no formal application or vetting. Now even being born
an overseas British citizen isn't enough to give you right of abode.

JGH

Indeed the latest coalition immigration restrictions are costing the
country net billions of pounds which could have been spent on outreach
trying to integrate those adrift from what most of us consider normal
society.

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
But while "in" prison they should be made to earn their keep doing all
the crap jobs that no one else wants (starting maybe by cleaning up
all the destruction caused during the riots - by hand), mending roads
etc. And if they won't work they don't get fed, (or just fed on very
basic rations, to keep the human rights crowd happy-ish).

Bring back the chain gang!

As for this bloke who got sentanced to one day - that really says how
serious the courts are - not!

Why pay a fortune to keep them in prison? Why not community service in
all the hours they are not sleeping (or where appropriate working0?

Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:00:44 +0100, DavidM
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:14:40 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 12:04, jgharston wrote:
MuddyMike wrote:
We went soft on immigration!

We went hard on immigration. 100 years ago you could move to this
country with no formal application or vetting. Now even being born
an overseas British citizen isn't enough to give you right of abode.

JGH

Indeed the latest coalition immigration restrictions are costing the
country net billions of pounds which could have been spent on outreach
trying to integrate those adrift from what most of us consider normal
society.

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
But while "in" prison they should be made to earn their keep doing all
the crap jobs that no one else wants (starting maybe by cleaning up
all the destruction caused during the riots - by hand), mending roads
etc. And if they won't work they don't get fed, (or just fed on very
basic rations, to keep the human rights crowd happy-ish).

Bring back the chain gang!

As for this bloke who got sentanced to one day - that really says how
serious the courts are - not!

OTOH a girl was sentenced to 6 months and she played no part in the
rioting. Sentencing needs to be consistent.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 01:38:01 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 13/08/2011 00:43, jgharston wrote:
Hugh wrote:
I have known a number of magistrates and judges over the years. Most
magistrates are conservative do gooders who are in a position where they
do not have to work and have absolutely no idea of the real world. We
really should use professionals rather than dispense arbitrary "justice"
on the cheap.

Which is why, when Licensing was taken from magistrates and given to
councils, I kept agitating to get Licensing Board members be actually
paid properly. Why should board members sitting twelve times a month,
spending hours dealing with complicated licensing cases and being
personally liable for their decisons get paid the same as somebody
who turns up to a planning board twice a month and nods through
dozens of cases in 30 minutes while playing to the gallery? Or even
the handful of members every council has that only ever turn up for
Full Council once a month, stay long enough to get noted in the
register, and then **** off.

JGH

Next thing you will be suggesting it is unreasonable for lords to turn
up for a few minutes to collect their £300 per day allowance. Yes
Britain is broken - at the top end.

I'd say it's broken at every level, from the very top right to the
bottom.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:37:42 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Hugh - Was Invisible
saying something like:

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.

+1000
Indeed. The likelihood of a full-time underclass with no money, no
prospects and nothing over their heads will definitely lead to a serious
rise in muggings, burglaries, etc. The people in that situation will
simply look on it as something they're forced to do to make ends meet.
Sheeit, it's bad enough at the moment - why add to it.

cue the right wing loons

It's a shame that everything seems to boil down to right or left wings
views and everyone "has" to take sides. I prefer to evaluate policies
individually and support the ones that I believe will work and to
oppose those I don't like. Neither the right or the left has all the
answers.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

Mark wrote:


Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?


I was reading on ARRSE yesterday how effective the Military Correction
Centres are at taking personnel in and turning them out ready, willing and
able to be useful with about a 2-3% reoffending rate.

Having said that, serious enough cases get sent down to the cvilian prisons
anyway so to a degree you aren't dealing with the worst.

But there are some interesting ideas in what they do in such a place.

--
Tim Watts

On 15/08/2011 10:51, Mark wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:37:42 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Hugh - Was Invisible
saying something like:

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.

+1000
Indeed. The likelihood of a full-time underclass with no money, no
prospects and nothing over their heads will definitely lead to a serious
rise in muggings, burglaries, etc. The people in that situation will
simply look on it as something they're forced to do to make ends meet.
Sheeit, it's bad enough at the moment - why add to it.

cue the right wing loons

It's a shame that everything seems to boil down to right or left wings
views and everyone "has" to take sides. I prefer to evaluate policies
individually and support the ones that I believe will work and to
oppose those I don't like. Neither the right or the left has all the
answers.

We're probably closer than we think to some kind of military rule unless
we allow the police to use whatever methods they think fit. An
unaccountable police force is not a nice prospect but it beats the hell
out of the toothless bureaucracy we currently have to endure.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 09:19:11 +0100, MM wrote:

On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:03:48 +0100, The Medway Handyman
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 18:23, Tim Watts wrote:
Jim K wrote:

"John wrote in message

It's a law of usenet, isn't it?

inevitably...

Jim K

Talking of which, bets on how long this thread takes to Godwin itself?

Hitler!

Mornington Crescent.

You can't , you're in Nidd!

Only if you are using N.F. Stovold's 1936 rules.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:44:24 +0100, Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:16:39 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 20:00, DavidM wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:14:40 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 12:04, jgharston wrote:
MuddyMike wrote:
We went soft on immigration!

We went hard on immigration. 100 years ago you could move to this
country with no formal application or vetting. Now even being born
an overseas British citizen isn't enough to give you right of abode.

JGH

Indeed the latest coalition immigration restrictions are costing the
country net billions of pounds which could have been spent on outreach
trying to integrate those adrift from what most of us consider normal
society.

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
But while "in" prison they should be made to earn their keep doing all
the crap jobs that no one else wants (starting maybe by cleaning up
all the destruction caused during the riots - by hand), mending roads
etc. And if they won't work they don't get fed, (or just fed on very
basic rations, to keep the human rights crowd happy-ish).

Bring back the chain gang!

As for this bloke who got sentanced to one day - that really says how
serious the courts are - not!

Why pay a fortune to keep them in prison? Why not community service in
all the hours they are not sleeping (or where appropriate working0?

Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?
Repairing all the potholes in our road system, should keep em busy for
a while, chain gang style plus no work = no food/TV/showers/any other
prison luxuries!

Mark wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:37:42 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Hugh - Was Invisible
saying something like:

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
+1000
Indeed. The likelihood of a full-time underclass with no money, no
prospects and nothing over their heads will definitely lead to a serious
rise in muggings, burglaries, etc. The people in that situation will
simply look on it as something they're forced to do to make ends meet.
Sheeit, it's bad enough at the moment - why add to it.

cue the right wing loons

It's a shame that everything seems to boil down to right or left wings
views and everyone "has" to take sides. I prefer to evaluate policies
individually and support the ones that I believe will work and to
oppose those I don't like. Neither the right or the left has all the
answers.

Right now neither of them has any of the answers.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:02:51 +0100, DavidM
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:44:24 +0100, Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:16:39 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 20:00, DavidM wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:14:40 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 12:04, jgharston wrote:
MuddyMike wrote:
We went soft on immigration!

We went hard on immigration. 100 years ago you could move to this
country with no formal application or vetting. Now even being born
an overseas British citizen isn't enough to give you right of abode.

JGH

Indeed the latest coalition immigration restrictions are costing the
country net billions of pounds which could have been spent on outreach
trying to integrate those adrift from what most of us consider normal
society.

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
But while "in" prison they should be made to earn their keep doing all
the crap jobs that no one else wants (starting maybe by cleaning up
all the destruction caused during the riots - by hand), mending roads
etc. And if they won't work they don't get fed, (or just fed on very
basic rations, to keep the human rights crowd happy-ish).

Bring back the chain gang!

As for this bloke who got sentanced to one day - that really says how
serious the courts are - not!

Why pay a fortune to keep them in prison? Why not community service in
all the hours they are not sleeping (or where appropriate working0?

Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?
Repairing all the potholes in our road system, should keep em busy for
a while, chain gang style plus no work = no food/TV/showers/any other
prison luxuries!

The people who do this now who are presumably qualified and better
motivated often do not do a very good job. I'd hate to see the mess
that these scrotes would make of the road.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

Mark wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:02:51 +0100, DavidM
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:44:24 +0100, Mark
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:16:39 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 20:00, DavidM wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:14:40 +0100, Hugh - Was Invisible
wrote:

On 12/08/2011 12:04, jgharston wrote:
MuddyMike wrote:
We went soft on immigration!
We went hard on immigration. 100 years ago you could move to this
country with no formal application or vetting. Now even being born
an overseas British citizen isn't enough to give you right of abode.

JGH
Indeed the latest coalition immigration restrictions are costing the
country net billions of pounds which could have been spent on outreach
trying to integrate those adrift from what most of us consider normal
society.

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.
But while "in" prison they should be made to earn their keep doing all
the crap jobs that no one else wants (starting maybe by cleaning up
all the destruction caused during the riots - by hand), mending roads
etc. And if they won't work they don't get fed, (or just fed on very
basic rations, to keep the human rights crowd happy-ish).

Bring back the chain gang!

As for this bloke who got sentanced to one day - that really says how
serious the courts are - not!
Why pay a fortune to keep them in prison? Why not community service in
all the hours they are not sleeping (or where appropriate working0?
Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?
Repairing all the potholes in our road system, should keep em busy for
a while, chain gang style plus no work = no food/TV/showers/any other
prison luxuries!

The people who do this now who are presumably qualified and better
motivated often do not do a very good job. I'd hate to see the mess
that these scrotes would make of the road.

Then they stay there and do it again and again until they do.

They could start with basic stuff like bog cleaning and work their way
up from there,.

In message , DavidM
writes

Because they're all useless yobs who wouldn't do the job and would
nick anything of value. What kind of community service could they be
trusted with?
Repairing all the potholes in our road system, should keep em busy for
a while,

Ah - but that would be taking away all the jobs that all these bloody
foreigners are taking away from our brave lads

Who would the NF have to march against then ?


--
geoff

In message , MM
writes
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:00:57 +0100, "Jim K"
wrote:

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Aug 12, 3:24 pm, "Jim K" wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message

...



"MuddyMike" wrote in message
news:0uWdnRgrKo2rTtnTnZ2dnUVZ8jKdnZ2d@brightview. com...
RIP Broken Britain..
We went soft on discipline!.. We went soft on immigration! We went soft
on
crime..
Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were
prevented
from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a
troublemaker
round the ear.. Children have rights...

Except that this is the rule in Germany as well, yet parents there still
seem able to bring up their children "proper like".

coming from a national background of dumb mindless obedience that's hardly
surprising....

That's these days, isn't it?
We got rid of all their yobs for them IIRC.

mmmm I suspect its more a genetic strength/weakness depending who's
directing......

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there

--
geoff

geoff wrote:

In message , MM
writes

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there


Prussians party?

--
Tim Watts

In message , Tim Watts
writes
geoff wrote:

In message , MM
writes

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there


Prussians party?

They do when they're told to



--
geoff

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , MM
writes
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:00:57 +0100, "Jim K"
wrote:

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Aug 12, 3:24 pm, "Jim K" wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message

...



"MuddyMike" wrote in message
news:0uWdnRgrKo2rTtnTnZ2dnUVZ8jKdnZ2d@brightview. com...
RIP Broken Britain..
We went soft on discipline!.. We went soft on immigration! We went
soft
on
crime..
Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were
prevented
from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a
troublemaker
round the ear.. Children have rights...

Except that this is the rule in Germany as well, yet parents there
still
seem able to bring up their children "proper like".

coming from a national background of dumb mindless obedience that's
hardly
surprising....

That's these days, isn't it?
We got rid of all their yobs for them IIRC.

mmmm I suspect its more a genetic strength/weakness depending who's
directing......

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there

--
geoff
When I worked in Germany with German civilians in British
Army vehicle repair workshop. The standing joke was Germans live in order to
work and the British work in order to live. The Germans were very regimented
and had a fixed way of working no matter what was wrong but the British man
would listen and read what what was written on the report form and decide on
where to start. I must admit that after a heavy night out we
often slept in the turret

Robbie

"Roberts" wrote in message
...

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , MM
writes
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:00:57 +0100, "Jim K"
wrote:

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Aug 12, 3:24 pm, "Jim K" wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message

...



"MuddyMike" wrote in message
news:0uWdnRgrKo2rTtnTnZ2dnUVZ8jKdnZ2d@brightview. com...
RIP Broken Britain..
We went soft on discipline!.. We went soft on immigration! We went
soft
on
crime..
Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were
prevented
from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a
troublemaker
round the ear.. Children have rights...

Except that this is the rule in Germany as well, yet parents there
still
seem able to bring up their children "proper like".

coming from a national background of dumb mindless obedience that's
hardly
surprising....

That's these days, isn't it?
We got rid of all their yobs for them IIRC.

mmmm I suspect its more a genetic strength/weakness depending who's
directing......

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there

--
geoff
When I worked in Germany with German civilians in British
Army vehicle repair workshop. The standing joke was Germans live in order
to work and the British work in order to live. The Germans were very
regimented and had a fixed way of working no matter what was wrong but the
British man would listen and read what what was written on the report form
and decide on where to start. I must admit that after a heavy night out we
often slept in the turret

is that a euphemism?

Jim K

In message , Roberts
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , MM
writes
On Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:00:57 +0100, "Jim K"
wrote:

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
...
On Aug 12, 3:24 pm, "Jim K" wrote:
"tim...." wrote in message

...



"MuddyMike" wrote in message
news:0uWdnRgrKo2rTtnTnZ2dnUVZ8jKdnZ2d@brightview. com...
RIP Broken Britain..
We went soft on discipline!.. We went soft on immigration! We went
soft
on
crime..
Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were
prevented
from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a
troublemaker
round the ear.. Children have rights...

Except that this is the rule in Germany as well, yet parents there
still
seem able to bring up their children "proper like".

coming from a national background of dumb mindless obedience that's
hardly
surprising....

That's these days, isn't it?
We got rid of all their yobs for them IIRC.

mmmm I suspect its more a genetic strength/weakness depending who's
directing......

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there

--
geoff
When I worked in Germany with German civilians in British
Army vehicle repair workshop. The standing joke was Germans live in order to
work and the British work in order to live. The Germans were very regimented
and had a fixed way of working no matter what was wrong but the British man
would listen and read what what was written on the report form and decide on
where to start. I must admit that after a heavy night out we
often slept in the turret

Ah - but the BAOR was in Prussia, the Septics were all in the south

.... completely different mentality down there


--
geoff

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mark
saying something like:

And I disagree totally with evictions for
the entire family if one member is accused of rioting or looting.

Ding.
Except when the entire family is already on notice/warning for
anti-social behaviour and the next incident would see them out.
Otherwise, I regard it as entirely draconian and unfair to penalise a
family for the actions of a 16yr-old who might be up to all sorts of
things his parents don't know about. Gawd nose, I was, at that age.

geoff wrote:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
geoff wrote:

In message , MM
writes

I worked in Germany for many years and one fundamental difference is
that the Germans know when to stop partying and start working, whereas
we British don't.


You're confusing Prussians with Bavarians there


Prussians party?

They do when they're told to


:-

--
Tim Watts

On 16/08/2011 03:57, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mark
saying something like:

And I disagree totally with evictions for
the entire family if one member is accused of rioting or looting.

Ding.
Except when the entire family is already on notice/warning for
anti-social behaviour and the next incident would see them out.
Otherwise, I regard it as entirely draconian and unfair to penalise a
family for the actions of a 16yr-old who might be up to all sorts of
things his parents don't know about. Gawd nose, I was, at that age.

+1

In article , Mark i@dontget
lotsofspamanymore.invalid scribeth thus
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:37:42 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Hugh - Was Invisible
saying something like:

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.

+1000
Indeed. The likelihood of a full-time underclass with no money, no
prospects and nothing over their heads will definitely lead to a serious
rise in muggings, burglaries, etc. The people in that situation will
simply look on it as something they're forced to do to make ends meet.
Sheeit, it's bad enough at the moment - why add to it.

cue the right wing loons

It's a shame that everything seems to boil down to right or left wings
views and everyone "has" to take sides. I prefer to evaluate policies
individually and support the ones that I believe will work and to
oppose those I don't like. Neither the right or the left has all the
answers.



Yes seems the world is adversarial. Is this just simply a human
behavioural trait or do we really have free choice in the matter?..

--
Tony Sayer

In message , stuart noble
writes
On 15/08/2011 10:51, Mark wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:37:42 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Hugh - Was Invisible
saying something like:

Yes we need to punish criminals.

We also need to do our best to include everyone in society. Taking away
benefits and housing from people with no immediate employment prospects
will simply lead to more stealing and riots - unless of course we shoot
them all or pay to keep them all in prison for years.

+1000
Indeed. The likelihood of a full-time underclass with no money, no
prospects and nothing over their heads will definitely lead to a serious
rise in muggings, burglaries, etc. The people in that situation will
simply look on it as something they're forced to do to make ends meet.
Sheeit, it's bad enough at the moment - why add to it.

cue the right wing loons

It's a shame that everything seems to boil down to right or left wings
views and everyone "has" to take sides. I prefer to evaluate policies
individually and support the ones that I believe will work and to
oppose those I don't like. Neither the right or the left has all the
answers.

We're probably closer than we think to some kind of military rule
unless we allow the police to use whatever methods they think fit. An
unaccountable police force is not a nice prospect but it beats the hell
out of the toothless bureaucracy we currently have to endure.

As in 1930's Germany?
--
hugh

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Yes seems the world is adversarial. Is this just simply a human
behavioural trait or do we really have free choice in the matter?..

Human instinct. Was once just one village against another. Gangs in town
just a development of that. Football teams too.

And of course anyone in that village who dares to be different.

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Aug 16, 3:57*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mark
saying something like:

And I disagree totally with evictions for
the entire family if one member is accused of rioting or looting.

Ding.
Except when the entire family is already on notice/warning for
anti-social behaviour and the next incident would see them out.

Trouble is all they do then is pass them on to someopne else,
since when has throwing your dog**** in someone elses garden been a
solution.

Otherwise, I regard it as entirely draconian and unfair to penalise a
family for the actions of a 16yr-old who might be up to all sorts of
things his parents don't know about. Gawd nose, I was, at that age.

I agree and what I don't like is the police wanting to bring in extra
laws so they can use them against
anyone at anytime like the stop and search.

We already have laws where we can fine people, even 16 year olds I
believe, so why not fine them
say £20 a week for a specific time ? and/or removing any items that
are believed to be the proceeds of crime.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

Trouble is all they do then is pass them on to someopne else,
since when has throwing your dog**** in someone elses garden been a
solution.

There used to be a teacher at the bottom of my garden that thought it was OK
to chuck his dogs **** over my fence just because I had a shed there and he
though it would be unnoticed.
Bloody idiot forgot that you have to paint sheds and I gave it him all back.
Is it any wonder the kids are like they are when the teachers and the
parents are morons?

THE RIOTERS PRAYER:


Our father, who art in prison, my mum knows not thy name, thy Riots come,
read it in the sun, in Birmingham, as it is in London, give us this day our
Welfare bread & forgive us our looting, as we're happy to loot those who
defend stuff against us, lead us not into employment but deliver us free
housing, for thine is the telly, the Burberry & the Barcardi, forever and
ever...Init

On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:01:05 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Aug 16, 3:57*am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mark
saying something like:

And I disagree totally with evictions for
the entire family if one member is accused of rioting or looting.

Ding.
Except when the entire family is already on notice/warning for
anti-social behaviour and the next incident would see them out.

Trouble is all they do then is pass them on to someopne else,
since when has throwing your dog**** in someone elses garden been a
solution.

Otherwise, I regard it as entirely draconian and unfair to penalise a
family for the actions of a 16yr-old who might be up to all sorts of
things his parents don't know about. Gawd nose, I was, at that age.

I agree and what I don't like is the police wanting to bring in extra
laws so they can use them against
anyone at anytime like the stop and search.

Indeed. So many laws have been ill thought out and used in
inappropriate situations. For example Anti terror laws have been used
against children involved in peaceful protests.

We already have laws where we can fine people, even 16 year olds I
believe, so why not fine them
say £20 a week for a specific time ? and/or removing any items that
are believed to be the proceeds of crime.

They'll probably just nick more stuff. How can anyone tell whether a
£20 note came from crime or was legit?

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In message , MuddyMike
writes
THE RIOTERS PRAYER:


Our father, who art in prison, my mum knows not thy name, thy Riots come,
read it in the sun, in Birmingham, as it is in London, give us this day our
Welfare bread & forgive us our looting, as we're happy to loot those who
defend stuff against us, lead us not into employment but deliver us free
housing, for thine is the telly, the Burberry & the Barcardi, forever and
ever...Init


http://www.wimp.com/manchesterriots/


--
geoff