With the new FiT payment solar panels look to be worthwhile. what are
the best ones, also how can one be sure of a good supplier and installer?
--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
With the new FiT payment solar panels look to be worthwhile. what are the
best ones, also how can one be sure of a good supplier and installer?
--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

Where are you?

Well I had mine installed by www.photonenergy.co.uk, who are based in
Reading.

Very professional company; very good value and would not hesitate to
recommend.

~£5k for 1kWp

~£9k for 2kWp

D

Vortex4 wrote:

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
With the new FiT payment solar panels look to be worthwhile. what are
the best ones, also how can one be sure of a good supplier and installer?
--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

Where are you?

Well I had mine installed by www.photonenergy.co.uk, who are based in
Reading.

Very professional company; very good value and would not hesitate to
recommend.

~£5k for 1kWp

~£9k for 2kWp

D
Sorry, should have said, North Staffordshire

--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
Vortex4 wrote:

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
With the new FiT payment solar panels look to be worthwhile. what are
the best ones, also how can one be sure of a good supplier and
installer?
--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

Where are you?

Well I had mine installed by www.photonenergy.co.uk, who are based in
Reading.

Very professional company; very good value and would not hesitate to
recommend.

~£5k for 1kWp

~£9k for 2kWp

D
Sorry, should have said, North Staffordshire

--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.

Call them for a quote. I believe they operate across the UK, with a couple
of satellite offices.

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped) so it
was a complete financial no-brainer.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Vortex4
wrote:

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped)
so it was a complete financial no-brainer.


Was it? What assumptions did you make about the average number of kWh per
day that you could extract from it? What fuel does it displace? How long is
the anticipated pay-back period?
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Vortex4
wrote:

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped)
so it was a complete financial no-brainer.


Was it? What assumptions did you make about the average number of kWh per
day that you could extract from it? What fuel does it displace? How long
is the anticipated pay-back period?
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array costing £9k

Read this: http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

FiT is 41.3 pp kWh this is for all energy generated regardless of whether
you use it or it is exported after April.

So £600 + income per year (tax exempt by the way)

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place and that is in effect
10p/unit so another £100 per year (that will reduce as and when the electric
co replace my prehistoric meter with a smart one).

Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. A no brainer.

D

On Feb 16, 11:40*am, "Vortex4" wrote:
"Roger Mills" wrote in message

...



In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Vortex4
wrote:

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped)
so it was a complete financial no-brainer.

Was it? What assumptions did you make about the average number of kWh per
day that you could extract from it? What fuel does it displace? How long
is the anticipated pay-back period?
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array costing £9k

Read this: *http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

FiT is 41.3 pp kWh this is for all energy generated regardless of whether
you use it or it is exported after April.

So £600 + income per year (tax exempt by the way)

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place and that is in effect
10p/unit so another £100 per year (that will reduce as and when the electric
co replace my prehistoric meter with a smart one).

Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. *A no brainer.

D

Until a future government chenge the FiT and you are left with an
expensive white elephant and no return of capital.

MBQ

On 16 Feb, 11:40, "Vortex4" wrote:

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place

I buy most of my electricity at night. PV isn't going to dent that.

On 16 Feb, 12:16, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:40*am, "Vortex4" wrote:





"Roger Mills" wrote in message

...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Vortex4
wrote:

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped)
so it was a complete financial no-brainer.

Was it? What assumptions did you make about the average number of kWh per
day that you could extract from it? What fuel does it displace? How long
is the anticipated pay-back period?
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array costing £9k

Read this: *http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

FiT is 41.3 pp kWh this is for all energy generated regardless of whether
you use it or it is exported after April.

So £600 + income per year (tax exempt by the way)

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place and that is in effect
10p/unit so another £100 per year (that will reduce as and when the electric
co replace my prehistoric meter with a smart one).

Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. *A no brainer.

D

Until a future government chenge the FiT and you are left with an
expensive white elephant and no return of capital.

MBQ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would never do that - there's a planet to save.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 16 Feb, 11:40, "Vortex4" wrote:

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place

I buy most of my electricity at night. PV isn't going to dent that.

Of course it is. All surplus electricity is EXPORTED to the grid.

In these situations your meter goes backwards (literally) and your bill
winds down.

Suggest you do some homework!

On 16 Feb, 12:49, "Vortex4" wrote:
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message

...

On 16 Feb, 11:40, "Vortex4" wrote:

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place

I buy most of my electricity at night. PV isn't going to dent that.

Of course it is. *All surplus electricity is EXPORTED to the grid.

In these situations your meter goes backwards (literally) and your bill
winds down.

Really?! Who'd have thought it!

So PV under FiT comes down to hard economics, rather than feelgood
about powering my personal zero-carbon toaster (et al.)

So what's the capital cost of PV, what's the unit value to me
(delivering it backwards through the meter), what's the likely system
lifetime, payback period and why on earth should I then take this
sizable sum of money and invest it in a tiny PV system on a roof under
UK weather? As opposed to, lets say, backing a three-legged donkey in
the Grand National.

Suggest you do some homework!

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

On 16 Feb, 11:40, "Vortex4" wrote:

1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array

As if.

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

Fortunately I am well qualified there.

relax and read this:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:59:52 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy
Dingley wrote this:-

1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array

As if.

Scoff as much as you like.

In http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8340.0.html
the quoted figures a

"My 640 wp system has been in just over the 12 months now,

"the annual production was 496 kwh"

and

"Hi, on my 1kwp system that fitted on 19/7/08 to 19/7/09 i got
860kwh"

No-doubt you will accuse me or them of lying.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

Vortex4 wrote:

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

Fortunately I am well qualified there.

relax and read this:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

I am tempted.

I was looking at some of the warranty documents for the actual
panels - the ones "guaranteed to maintain 80% output for 25
years".

Initially it gives you a warm glow, but if it goes badly, they
only cover the cost of the panel, based on the original cost
discounted at x% per year. You seem to be responsible for
removal, testing to prove their reduced performance, and
re-instatement. I guess, unless it is a gross failure early on,
that it is not going to be cost-effective to exercise your
rights.

Looks like metering might also be interesting. If there is no
smart or export meter, which is down to the supplier, or your
pocket, I think they are simply going to "deem" a certain level
of export. Not sure yet who benefits here.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...
Vortex4 wrote:

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

Fortunately I am well qualified there.

relax and read this:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

I am tempted.

I was looking at some of the warranty documents for the actual
panels - the ones "guaranteed to maintain 80% output for 25
years".

Initially it gives you a warm glow, but if it goes badly, they
only cover the cost of the panel, based on the original cost
discounted at x% per year. You seem to be responsible for
removal, testing to prove their reduced performance, and
re-instatement. I guess, unless it is a gross failure early on,
that it is not going to be cost-effective to exercise your
rights.

Looks like metering might also be interesting. If there is no
smart or export meter, which is down to the supplier, or your
pocket, I think they are simply going to "deem" a certain level
of export. Not sure yet who benefits here.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

The PV inverter sits on a dedicated spur and has it's own "approved" meter
on the circuit.

The FiT is based on this reading ie all you generate whether exported or
not......and I assume after April this meter will be "read" just like the
main one.

In my case I have an old "analog" spinning disc meter as the main meter
which simply registers your net usage. It even goes backwards when PV
supply exceeds demand. I'm happy with that.

It seems like a ridiculously expensive way to save the planet. I have a
much simpler view that it is "cash back" on the immense amount of tax that I
directly and indirectly deliver to the Government. There aren't many
investments that yield 8% return out there.


D

On Feb 16, 3:54*pm, "Vortex4" wrote:
"Chris J Dixon" wrote in messagenews:i9cln55rcg07r22r5748qc9sdf4mlk7kpp@4ax .com...



Vortex4 wrote:

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

Fortunately I am well qualified there.

relax and read this:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/selling-elec...y-to-the-grid/

I am tempted.

I was looking at some of the warranty documents for the actual
panels - the ones "guaranteed to maintain 80% output for 25
years".

Initially it gives you a warm glow, but if it goes badly, they
only cover the cost of the panel, based on the original cost
discounted at x% per year. You seem to be responsible for
removal, testing to prove their reduced performance, and
re-instatement. I guess, unless it is a gross failure early on,
that it is not going to be cost-effective to exercise your
rights.

Looks like metering might also be interesting. If there is no
smart or export meter, which is down to the supplier, or your
pocket, I think they are simply going to "deem" a certain level
of export. Not sure yet who benefits here.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon *Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

The PV inverter sits on a dedicated spur and has it's own "approved" meter
on the circuit.

The FiT is based on this reading *ie all you generate whether exported or
not......and I assume after April this meter will be "read" just like the
main one.

In my case I have an old "analog" spinning disc meter as the main meter
which simply registers your net usage. *It even goes backwards when PV
supply exceeds demand. *I'm happy with that.

It seems like a ridiculously expensive way to save the planet. *I have a
much simpler view that it is "cash back" on the immense amount of tax that I
directly and indirectly deliver to the Government. * There aren't many
investments that yield 8% return out there.

No, but for that amount tied up for a few years you can easily get 3
or 4% compounded with guaranteed return of your capital at the end of
the term. Unless you have other reasons, like wanting to be "off
grid", then it's a no brainer, and PV loses every time.

MBQ

In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Vortex4
wrote:

It seems like a ridiculously expensive way to save the planet.

I would have to agree with that. I had no idea that you could sell it back
to the grid at 40-odd pence per unit - totally mad!

I have a much simpler view that it is "cash back" on the immense amount
of tax that I directly and indirectly deliver to the Government. There
aren't many investments that yield 8% return out there.


It may provide an annual *income* of 8% of the initial investment (if you're
lucky!) but even that will take over 12 years to recoup the installation
price. That's only an RoI of 8% if the installation is still worth what you
paid for it at the end of the 12 years. Time will tell whether it will be or
not - but I think I'd settle for a return of half that rate provided my
capital was guaranteed to be intact at the end.
--
Cheers,
Roger
_______
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 16, 3:54 pm, "Vortex4" wrote:
snip
The PV inverter sits on a dedicated spur and has it's own "approved" meter
on the circuit.

The FiT is based on this reading ie all you generate whether exported or
not......and I assume after April this meter will be "read" just like the
main one.

In my case I have an old "analog" spinning disc meter as the main meter
which simply registers your net usage. It even goes backwards when PV
supply exceeds demand. I'm happy with that.

It seems like a ridiculously expensive way to save the planet. I have a
much simpler view that it is "cash back" on the immense amount of tax that
I
directly and indirectly deliver to the Government. There aren't many
investments that yield 8% return out there.

#No, but for that amount tied up for a few years you can easily get 3
#or 4% compounded with guaranteed return of your capital at the end of
#the term. Unless you have other reasons, like wanting to be "off
#grid", then it's a no brainer, and PV loses every time.

#MBQ

This is the crux of all these dodgy costings - figures like '8% ROI' are
pointless when this is not an investment (which you can subsequently sell)
but a capital expenditure to generate revenue (hopefully).
To be cost effective you need to make enough money to pay back the capital
outlay in a reasonable time and also match or better the interest you would
have got if you had invested the money elsewhere.
[To me 'reasonable time' would be 5-10 years maximum.]
Also, as pointed out above, interest on an investment can be compounded; on
the PV generation to match this you would have to invest any money saved
from your electricity bill.
So payback (not profit) in 15-20 years if there are no additional costs (e.g
for repairs) and the payments are maintained and interest rates do not go up
significantly.
Meanwhile someone else has your money.

I would be more interested in how much it was just to get the spur and
meter - I could then add PV arrays as and when they were a good price and
probably do a lot better than the apparent £4k for a 1Kw panel.

I think we are generally in favour of alternative energy sources as long as
they are cost effective.

I suspect it would be a lot more cost effective to pay households to store
surplus energy (e.g. from wind farms when the wind is blowing) then release
it back into the grid when demand peaks.

Cheers

LGC

This is the crux of all these dodgy costings - figures like '8% ROI' are
pointless when this is not an investment (which you can subsequently sell)

Of course it is saleable. It's attached to the house and as such has value
of course this tech will be much cheaper in 10 years time but it will still
have value as it will generate an income stream for the new housholder.

The FiT will be in place for 25 years. OK in real terms the 41.3p per unit
will become "worth" less but nevertheless it's existence will dictate a
notional "value"

I would be more interested in how much it was just to get the spur and
meter - I could then add PV arrays as and when they were a good price and
probably do a lot better than the apparent £4k for a 1Kw panel.

You won't qualify for FiT on that basis

I think we are generally in favour of alternative energy sources as long
as they are cost effective.

On Feb 16, 11:40*am, "Vortex4" wrote:
Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. *A no brainer.

Ummm, no...
o 8% yield is effectively coming out of your capital
o You do not get your capital back in the future
o There are no guarantees about future FiT

Contrast with UK Gilts or US Treasuries. Ok, you MIGHT not get your
capital back in the future either but it is at least possible if not
probable :-)

This is a welfare program for Sharp's Welsh factories?
Anymore stakeholders or rather spongeholder energy technologies out
there who want the economies of scale to come out of taxpayer welfare
programs (and snaking line of brown overalls as ministry of silly
walks).


If the govmint wants to do something put ASHP under Permitted
Development with a reasonable noise standard (they still haven't
defined the damn thing).

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Feb 16, 11:40 am, "Vortex4" wrote:
Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. A no brainer.

Ummm, no...
o 8% yield is effectively coming out of your capital

Poor terminology acknowledged.

o You do not get your capital back in the future

I disagree, but do not plan on moving for 10+ years so can't test it for a
while

o There are no guarantees about future FiT

Only 25 years if the system keeps working.

Look at the "table of tarriffs (sic) on the bottom of this page
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...n_tarriff.aspx

I have a suspicion this is merely one of many forthcoming "how to
manufacture domestic jobs, manufacture statistics and hide
statistics". All lined up for the "N% must be spent on green if an
extension built etc". All part of the creation of a manufactured
economy rather than a manufacturing economy, which USSR found failed
miserably.

Why PV are not economic...
- 2kW of PV's cost £5000 re Ebay.
- Annual generation say 1500kWhr, saving £150/yr @ 10p/kWhr.
- Payback of £3750 over 25yrs for £5000 outlay.

I'd rather a gov't negotiate a Bulk Buy of 2kW PV for £2500 and then
charge £2600 for people.
Instead we have a nonsense "sell back to the grid at 20x cost of
generation" which is a blatant "Welfare for Business" rather than
driving down the cost of PV through volume, quite shocking. Sharp no
doubt whinged loud enough.

"Vortex5" wrote in message
...


This is the crux of all these dodgy costings - figures like '8% ROI' are
pointless when this is not an investment (which you can subsequently
sell)

Of course it is saleable. It's attached to the house and as such has
value of course this tech will be much cheaper in 10 years time but it
will still have value as it will generate an income stream for the new
housholder.

The FiT will be in place for 25 years. OK in real terms the 41.3p per
unit will become "worth" less but nevertheless it's existence will dictate
a notional "value"

Do you seriously expect all future governments for the next 25 years to
stick by a scheme set up by this present shower?

Your faith is touching.

Look up 'War Bonds' sometime to see how honourable a government can be.

On 16/02/2010 20:22, David WE Roberts wrote:

Look up 'War Bonds' sometime to see how honourable a government can be.

I tried briefly, got nowhere. Care to expand?

Do you seriously expect all future governments for the next 25 years to
stick by a scheme set up by this present shower?

Your faith is touching.

Look up 'War Bonds' sometime to see how honourable a government can be.

I am not a tree hugger, I do not have a beard and for the record I have
zero faith in the current shower, who bleed an unbelievable amount of
taxation from me and my business every year along with having implemented
numerous so-called initiatives that make no sense whatsoever.

As far as I am concerned any opportunity to get a bit of cashback is
welcome. Let's have a discussion in 2020 about whether the investment was
worth it....or indeed worthy of the term "investment" at all. I plan on
still being here.

Vortex5 wrote:

The FiT will be in place for 25 years. OK in real terms the 41.3p per
unit will become "worth" less

"The rate will be indexed to the retail price index for the life of the
tariff"

Roger Mills wrote:

I would have to agree with that. I had no idea that you could sell it back
to the grid at 40-odd pence per unit - totally mad!

You can power electric fires in your back garden with it for all they
care, they'll still pay you 41p/unit, they will pay an *extra* 3p/unit
if you do actually export it to the grid!

"Vortex5" wrote in message
...


You won't qualify for FiT on that basis

From what I read you don't qualify for FiT if you had a grant for
installation.

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
On 16/02/2010 20:22, David WE Roberts wrote:

Look up 'War Bonds' sometime to see how honourable a government can be.

I tried briefly, got nowhere. Care to expand?

Sorry, typo - in WW2 it was called War Loan in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_bond explains how other countries did it.

In the UK the stock was undated (i.e. had no fixed date when it would be
repaid) but was sold on the understanding that after the war the people who
loaned the government their money would get it back.

However, this turned out to be inconvenient and War Loan is still being
traded today, but at a substantial discount from the original purchase
price.

See
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...s-1139854.html
for some commentary.

So people (such as my parents) who loaned their savings to the government in
good faith got cheated after the war and lost a significant amount of money.

Moral - don't trust any government when it makes long term promises.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Vortex5" wrote in message
...


You won't qualify for FiT on that basis

From what I read you don't qualify for FiT if you had a grant for
installation.




No they are entirely separate. Up to £2k5 Low Carbon Buildings grants were
available until suddenly "pulled" (for pv) last week. No surprise. It's
no longer possible to get the grant for pv

FiT applies to all qualifying installations since July 15 last year.
http://tinyurl.com/yg2azqg

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
On 16/02/2010 20:22, David WE Roberts wrote:

Look up 'War Bonds' sometime to see how honourable a government can be.

I tried briefly, got nowhere. Care to expand?

**** Gah! WW1! The Independant article does explain quite well what happened
to the value of the money lent to the government. ****
Sorry, typo - in WW2 it was called War Loan in the UK.
snip
See
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...s-1139854.html
for some commentary.

So people (such as my parents) who loaned their savings to the government
in good faith got cheated after the war and lost a significant amount of
money.

Moral - don't trust any government when it makes long term promises.

On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:28:31 +0000 John Rumm wrote :
Especially when its one that figures its on the way out, and wants
to do as much within its power as possible to queer the pitch for
the new incumbents.

You can't make that accusation wrt War Loan, since successor
governments haven't had to pay it back. Now if GB was to borrow a
pile of dosh via 4-year dated gilts ..

"According to the Debt Management Office, the average maturity of
UK sovereign debt is 14 years. In the US, it's about four years.
In France and Germany it's six or seven. Greek debt has an average
maturity of just under 8 years. As I mentioned yesterday, they
have about 10% of their debt coming due in the next few months."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...k_britain.html

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com

Andy Burns wrote:

You can power electric fires in your back garden with it for all they
care, they'll still pay you 41p/unit, they will pay an *extra* 3p/unit
if you do actually export it to the grid!

Until they have suitable meters, which many suppliers are not yet
willing to fit, the amount actually exported will simply be
estimated. Some expect this to be set at 50%, which is probably
high for most installations.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

Until they have suitable meters, which many suppliers are not yet
willing to fit, the amount actually exported will simply be
estimated. Some expect this to be set at 50%, which is probably
high for most installations.

Who can blame them? they're already being stung for the 41p * "n" units,
why pay for an extra meter when they can pay 3p * "n/2" instead? Even
with the optimistic n=1000 a few people have quoted, then it's £15/year
to not fit the meter v.s £100's to fit one.

On Feb 16, 7:24*pm, "Vortex5"
wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message

...

On Feb 16, 11:40 am, "Vortex4" wrote:
Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. *A no brainer.

Ummm, no...
o 8% yield is effectively coming out of your capital

Poor terminology acknowledged.

o You do not get your capital back in the future

I disagree,

Explain please! How do you expect to get ALL your capital back?

but do not plan on moving for 10+ years so can't test it for a
while

Even less chance of a return of your capital.

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 16, 7:24 pm, "Vortex5"
wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message

...

On Feb 16, 11:40 am, "Vortex4" wrote:
Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. A no brainer.

Ummm, no...
o 8% yield is effectively coming out of your capital

Poor terminology acknowledged.

o You do not get your capital back in the future

I disagree,

#Explain please! How do you expect to get ALL your capital back?

but do not plan on moving for 10+ years so can't test it for a
while

#Even less chance of a return of your capital.


Just a thought (haven't time to check just now) but does the agreement
transfer with the house when it is sold?

David WE Roberts wrote:
snip
So people (such as my parents) who loaned their savings to the
government in good faith got cheated after the war and lost a
significant amount of money.


Did a lot better than the inhabitants of Tyneham.

Moral - don't trust any government when it makes long term promises.

What's "long term" got to do with it?

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
David WE Roberts wrote:
snip
So people (such as my parents) who loaned their savings to the
government in good faith got cheated after the war and lost a
significant amount of money.


Did a lot better than the inhabitants of Tyneham.

Moral - don't trust any government when it makes long term promises.

What's "long term" got to do with it?

Andy
And, ISTM, you are complaining not that politicians are corrupt, but
that they are not corrupt *IN YOUR FAVOUR*'....

Huge wrote:
On 2010-02-16, David WE Roberts wrote:
"Clive George" wrote in message


Moral - don't trust any government when it makes long term promises.

Too long.

"Don't trust any Government."

There, that's better.

Government is merely the successful mafia running a protection racket.

Who define themselves as legal.

Bear that in mind when voting.