Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well maintained -
inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able to
tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole but
in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I can't get
at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible with)
inhibitor solutions: can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am not
sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

On Jan 26, 7:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:

sludge in bottom of rads?

Q:- would a leak sealer be able to penetrate throught the sludge to
get to the pinhole(s)?

Sounds to have happened a bit quick for a well maintained system...

Cheers
JimK

"spamlet" wrote in message
m...
Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained - inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole
but in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I
can't get at it.

If the radiators are starting to pinhole through the metal and the surface
paint then you either have a few very abnormally weak areas of metal in a
massive area of radiator or you are about to have a sieve.

Which do you think is more likely?

I am assuming this is much like the similar problems you get with car
radiators and heater cores.
Once they are rotten then you can kid yourself that a magic leak stopper
will cure all your problems long term or you can start budgeting for a
replacement.

I must say that I have never seen pinholing in radiators - even those 25+
years old.

They surely must be very rotten - especially as it is in more than one
radiator.

How old is 'fairly old'?

Sadly, I would write them all off and replace as soon as possible - granted
that a leak stopper may get you through the next month or so until you can
survive without the heating for a few days.

Even so, it should be possible to work your way round the house replacing a
radiator at a time without shutting down the whole system.

Comiserations.

Dave R

"JimK" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 7:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:

sludge in bottom of rads?

Q:- would a leak sealer be able to penetrate throught the sludge to
get to the pinhole(s)?

Sounds to have happened a bit quick for a well maintained system...

Cheers
JimK

Hi Jim,

The holes have (so far ) been near the top of the rads, and I have flushed
them - when changing most of the copper pipes for plastic a couple of years
ago - so sludge is not a problem with the current holes at least. Possibly
someone let them get low at some time and left a rusty tidemark? (The rads
were here before we were.)

So, do these leak sealers work, and do they mix with the usual inhibitors?

Cheers,
S

On Jan 26, 8:46 pm, "spamlet" wrote:
"JimK" wrote in message

...

On Jan 26, 7:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:

sludge in bottom of rads?

Q:- would a leak sealer be able to penetrate throught the sludge to
get to the pinhole(s)?

Sounds to have happened a bit quick for a well maintained system...

Cheers
JimK

Hi Jim,

The holes have (so far ) been near the top of the rads, and I have flushed
them - when changing most of the copper pipes for plastic a couple of years
ago - so sludge is not a problem with the current holes at least. Possibly
someone let them get low at some time and left a rusty tidemark? (The rads
were here before we were.)

So, do these leak sealers work, and do they mix with the usual inhibitors?

Cheers,
S

intriguing - pinholes at the top of rads??! - only ones I've ever
dealt with (tho not many) were at bottom near either valve...

pass

JimK

"JimK" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 8:46 pm, "spamlet" wrote:
"JimK" wrote in message

...

On Jan 26, 7:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:

sludge in bottom of rads?

Q:- would a leak sealer be able to penetrate throught the sludge to
get to the pinhole(s)?

Sounds to have happened a bit quick for a well maintained system...

Cheers
JimK

Hi Jim,

The holes have (so far ) been near the top of the rads, and I have
flushed
them - when changing most of the copper pipes for plastic a couple of
years
ago - so sludge is not a problem with the current holes at least.
Possibly
someone let them get low at some time and left a rusty tidemark? (The
rads
were here before we were.)

So, do these leak sealers work, and do they mix with the usual
inhibitors?

Cheers,
S

intriguing - pinholes at the top of rads??! - only ones I've ever
dealt with (tho not many) were at bottom near either valve...

pass

JimK

The first that appeared was near to a spot weld holding the two skins of the
rad together, and looked to be due to a flaw bubble in the steel - or maybe
splash from the welder.
The second was higher up on the sloping outward part of a rad, and possibly
a weakness from the folding.
The third is at the top between two rads back to back, where I can't get at
it.

S

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:38:57 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

intriguing - pinholes at the top of rads??! - only ones I've ever
dealt with (tho not many) were at bottom near either valve...

I've had 'em near the top in the face of the vertical "tubes" and the
horizontal top "tube". I suspect that the system had never had any
inhibitor in it and was a good ten years old when the holes appeared,
in a couple of rads. I soldered little bits of copper over them,
drained the system and refilled with inhibitor no more holes
appeared.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jan 26, 1:27*pm, "spamlet" wrote:
Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well maintained -
inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. *In the first two I was able to
tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole but
in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I can't get
at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible with)
inhibitor solutions: *can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am not
sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

Ive succesfully use two park epoxy on my car radiadtor, its under 15lb
and 200f so it should work on a boiler radiator. Filling a system and
not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:38:57 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

intriguing - pinholes at the top of rads??! - only ones I've ever
dealt with (tho not many) were at bottom near either valve...

I've had 'em near the top in the face of the vertical "tubes" and the
horizontal top "tube". I suspect that the system had never had any
inhibitor in it and was a good ten years old when the holes appeared,
in a couple of rads. I soldered little bits of copper over them,
drained the system and refilled with inhibitor no more holes
appeared.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Good idea Dave: I haven't been very lucky with getting solder to stick to
old iron in the past but it may be worth a try. On the other hand it might
make the hole bigger...

My technique with the earlier holes was just to drill and tap them and glue
in a small screw, but in the current example there isn't room for this.

Still nobody seems to have much to say about the leak stopping and
inhibiting chemicals. Shame as they are quite expensive to just 'suck it
and see'.

Cheers
S

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"spamlet" wrote in message
m...
Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained - inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin
hole but in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where
I can't get at it.

If the radiators are starting to pinhole through the metal and the surface
paint then you either have a few very abnormally weak areas of metal in a
massive area of radiator or you are about to have a sieve.

Which do you think is more likely?

I am assuming this is much like the similar problems you get with car
radiators and heater cores.
Once they are rotten then you can kid yourself that a magic leak stopper
will cure all your problems long term or you can start budgeting for a
replacement.

I must say that I have never seen pinholing in radiators - even those 25+
years old.

They surely must be very rotten - especially as it is in more than one
radiator.

How old is 'fairly old'?

Sadly, I would write them all off and replace as soon as possible -
granted that a leak stopper may get you through the next month or so until
you can survive without the heating for a few days.

Even so, it should be possible to work your way round the house replacing
a radiator at a time without shutting down the whole system.

Comiserations.

Dave R

The rads actually 'feel' quite sound. I did replace one recently as it was
too big for the room once double glazed. It was v heavy compared with
modern ones but still of a similar design.

We are a bit short of cash at the mo, and not ready for a big refit, so stop
gaps are all we are after if they work at all. As there is a wide range in
price on the leak stopping and inhibiting chemicals I was just fishing to
see if anyone had any good advice on which worked and which to avoid. (We've
also got the b' motorised valve actuator packing up for the third time -
'pop' 'pop' 'pop' from the radio for ages every time ch and hw are on at the
same time, thanks to those infuriatingly fragile microswitches I've
complained about here before... yet more quids down the drain.)

He ho.

S

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 26, 1:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:
Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained -
inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to
tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole
but
in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I can't
get
at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible with)
inhibitor solutions: can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am
not
sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

Ive succesfully use two park epoxy on my car radiadtor, its under 15lb
and 200f so it should work on a boiler radiator. Filling a system and
not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

I've used epoxy - on the plastic parts of car rads at least - but have never
entirely trusted it in places that might lead to total loss if it began to
fail - for example in the small 'glove compartment' rads, that only come on
when selected.

Have you tried any of the leak stopping products?

cheers,
S

Filling a system and not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

My system has never had inhibitor added, not for the last 30 years anyway.
Not been drained for over 10 years either.
Open tank system so I suppose some new water would have been introduced to replace evaporation.

My thinking is the water will be pretty inert by now. What do you think?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:54:25 GMT, Spamlet wrote:

Good idea Dave: I haven't been very lucky with getting solder to stick
to old iron in the past but it may be worth a try.

Clean well back to bright metal, acid flux and enough heat. You'll
need to drain the radiator so there isn't any water nearby or won't
stand a chance.

TBH I can't remeber how I stuck the little bits on now, it was 20 odd
years ago. No great areas of burn paint so I didn't use a blow lamp.
I don't think my 25W electric soldering iron would have enough
capacity. Maybe I used the Portasol gas powered one, that whacks out
about 60W flat out. Or it might have be Alradite...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jan 27, 11:54*am, "Spamlet" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jan 26, 1:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:





Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained -
inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to
tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole
but
in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I can't
get
at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible with)
inhibitor solutions: can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am
not
sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

Ive succesfully use two park epoxy on my car radiadtor, its under 15lb
and 200f so it should work on a boiler radiator. Filling a system and
not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

I've used epoxy - on the plastic parts of car rads at least - but have never
entirely trusted it in places that might lead to total loss if it began to
fail - for example in the small 'glove compartment' rads, that only come on
when selected.

Have you tried any of the leak stopping products?

cheers,
S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have gallons on hand for boilers , but I have never needed them, at
one location I have a 1,700,000 btu boiler. Here in the US we dont
drain down water boilers, if you do it must be fired right away to
remove the Oxygen, and fired for a long time, so its only a good time
to do it just before or during heating season. There are stop leak
products that are cheap, about as much as a cheap bottle of Whiskey or
a gallon of antifreeze, they work if the leak is small. But first
thing is keep the Pressure-Altitude of the water at the minimum needed
to get water to the highest radiator, I only need 15lb to go up 30ft
or 3 stories. www.heatinghelp.com is where US boiler pros are, post on
The Wall for better info, im just a owner not a repair tech, but my
radiators are near 90 years old. here we dont add treatments unless
its bad water, maybe your water has chemicals in it that are
corrosive. I know one boiler I have the install manual states if water
is corrosive or extremely high in mineral content Distilled water
should be used. High mineral content leads to scale and popping that
reduces efficency and might ruin a boiler eventualy. Big systems are
monitored. try www.heatinghelp.com

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:54:25 GMT, Spamlet wrote:

Good idea Dave: I haven't been very lucky with getting solder to stick
to old iron in the past but it may be worth a try.

Clean well back to bright metal, acid flux and enough heat. You'll
need to drain the radiator so there isn't any water nearby or won't
stand a chance.

TBH I can't remeber how I stuck the little bits on now, it was 20 odd
years ago. No great areas of burn paint so I didn't use a blow lamp.
I don't think my 25W electric soldering iron would have enough
capacity. Maybe I used the Portasol gas powered one, that whacks out
about 60W flat out. Or it might have be Alradite...

--
Cheers
Dave.

I find a miniature blow lamp can get small areas of a big piece of metal hot
enough for solder - but making it stick is another matter. Brazing would be
better, but I have heard next to nothing about this since I was at school
40y ago!

S

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Jan 27, 11:54 am, "Spamlet" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...
On Jan 26, 1:27 pm, "spamlet" wrote:





Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained -
inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to
tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole
but
in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I can't
get
at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any
to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible
with)
inhibitor solutions: can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am
not
sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

Ive succesfully use two park epoxy on my car radiadtor, its under 15lb
and 200f so it should work on a boiler radiator. Filling a system and
not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

I've used epoxy - on the plastic parts of car rads at least - but have
never
entirely trusted it in places that might lead to total loss if it began to
fail - for example in the small 'glove compartment' rads, that only come
on
when selected.

Have you tried any of the leak stopping products?

cheers,
S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have gallons on hand for boilers , but I have never needed them, at
one location I have a 1,700,000 btu boiler. Here in the US we dont
drain down water boilers, if you do it must be fired right away to
remove the Oxygen, and fired for a long time, so its only a good time
to do it just before or during heating season. There are stop leak
products that are cheap, about as much as a cheap bottle of Whiskey or
a gallon of antifreeze, they work if the leak is small. But first
thing is keep the Pressure-Altitude of the water at the minimum needed
to get water to the highest radiator, I only need 15lb to go up 30ft
or 3 stories. www.heatinghelp.com is where US boiler pros are, post on
The Wall for better info, im just a owner not a repair tech, but my
radiators are near 90 years old. here we dont add treatments unless
its bad water, maybe your water has chemicals in it that are
corrosive. I know one boiler I have the install manual states if water
is corrosive or extremely high in mineral content Distilled water
should be used. High mineral content leads to scale and popping that
reduces efficency and might ruin a boiler eventualy. Big systems are
monitored. try www.heatinghelp.com
_______________________

Thanks for the extra info Mark. 90 year old rads is quite impressive. Our
system is not pressurised, though obviously the pressure in each rad will
vary with how the balancing valves have to be set, and how fast we run the
pump. We always use the minimum speed we can get away with (Full speed
makes the system overflow - one other way that the inhibitor chemicals could
become diluted.)

Cheers,
S

"Graham." wrote in message
...


Filling a system and not firing it right away to remove oxygen leads to
rust. A boiler
should never be drained -refilled and let sit all summer withouts days
of high firing. There are stop leak products but the metal is thin.

My system has never had inhibitor added, not for the last 30 years anyway.
Not been drained for over 10 years either.
Open tank system so I suppose some new water would have been introduced to
replace evaporation.

My thinking is the water will be pretty inert by now. What do you think?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

I don't know Graham, but if the pipes and rads I have changed over the years
are anything to go by, you will have a lot of sludge, and it can take an
awful lot of flushing to get it out as the coppery black goo is pretty
heavy. As to corrosion, obviously the local water supply varies in hardness
and mineral content, but even this is pretty closely controlled these days.
There are probably electrical/ionic effects that can cause local corrosion
if all the metal is not uniform, in any system. But not being chemist or
engineer these are only assumptions.

Cheers,
S

"spamlet" wrote in message
m...
Hi All: happy new year...

Over the last few months pin holes have started to appear in our ch
radiators - which are fairly old, but thought to have been well
maintained - inhibitor in system etc.

The holes have appeared in 3 different rads. In the first two I was able
to tap a screw and seal them, but now a third rad has developed a pin hole
but in this case it is between the two leaves of a double rad, where I
can't get at it.

I see that there are some rad sealing products which we could try: any to
look out for that are known to be good?

And, how do these sealing products get on with (are they compatible with)
inhibitor solutions: can we add both at the same time?

(There has been various plumbing work over the last year or so, and I am
not sure of whether those who carried it out drained and/or replaced the
inhibitors.).

Cheers,
S

Well, never did find out about the effectiveness or otherwise of
inhibitors/leak stoppers. But it did eventually dawn on me that the
'doubleness' of the rad actually makes a temporary fix easier: just cut a
cork down to a little wider than the gap between the two layers and slide it
in over the pinhole. That will do for now!

Cheers,
S

On Feb 2, 5:49 pm, "Spamlet" wrote:
Well, never did find out about the effectiveness or otherwise of
inhibitors/leak stoppers. But it did eventually dawn on me that the
'doubleness' of the rad actually makes a temporary fix easier: just cut a
cork down to a little wider than the gap between the two layers and slide it
in over the pinhole. That will do for now!

Cheers,
S

nice lateral thought!