Had two jobs this/last week involving grouting wall tiles, one where I have
tiled a wall and one where I raked out the old grout on existing tiles.

It's been really hot & humid in sunny Medway this/last week and both
bathrooms have been short on the ventilation front.

In both cases I've noticed that the grout in small areas has dried with
small 'pinholes' in it.

The newly tiled wall should have been dry, tiled on Saturday, grouted
Monday. The raked out grouted wall showed the same symptoms.

Used a proper grout float on both walls, proper grout finisher, different
make of adhesive/grout in each case, both newly purchased. Not seem this
before.

Is it the humidity & temperature that causes this? PITA as I had to regrout
in both cases to get a good finish.

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

If you are referring to the scouring sponges, 'grouting sponge'
doesn't have any colouring in it to rub off on the grout. If
you use a green one for the kitchen pans with white grout, you
can find green staining appear in the grout surface.
Yes, leave something out and charge 10 times the price...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 13 Aug 2007 22:58:38 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

If you are referring to the scouring sponges, 'grouting sponge'
doesn't have any colouring in it to rub off on the grout. If
you use a green one for the kitchen pans with white grout, you
can find green staining appear in the grout surface.
Yes, leave something out and charge 10 times the price...

Why would anyone use a pan scourer ..even the spongy type to grout
tiles with . As far as I can tell a grouting sponge is much the same
as any other sponge ...(some may be slightly softer than others .)
other than a natural sponge of course but they are prohibited are they
not .

On 2007-08-13 23:47:51 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Had two jobs this/last week involving grouting wall tiles, one where I have
tiled a wall and one where I raked out the old grout on existing tiles.

It's been really hot & humid in sunny Medway this/last week and both
bathrooms have been short on the ventilation front.

In both cases I've noticed that the grout in small areas has dried with
small 'pinholes' in it.

The newly tiled wall should have been dry, tiled on Saturday, grouted
Monday. The raked out grouted wall showed the same symptoms.

Used a proper grout float on both walls, proper grout finisher, different
make of adhesive/grout in each case, both newly purchased. Not seem this
before.

Is it the humidity & temperature that causes this? PITA as I had to regrout
in both cases to get a good finish.

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

I've just completed a tiling job using large format (305mm sq.)
limestone tiles. I went to a lot of trouble contacting the major
adhesives manufacturers and talking to their technical departments.
Probably the two significant ones in terms of coverage of applications
are Ardex and Weber (used to be Howtex).

Ardex were especially helpful in terms of choice of fixing system and
procedures to use and their web site has a lot of useful information
for different applications. I was especially concerned about
fixing to different surfaces - in the same room there are plasterboard,
ply, plaster. Ideally, one should use a different fixing and
sometimes grouting approach for each of these (can be more if it will
be a wet area), but I wasn't going to buy three different sets of
materials - especially when each comes in minimum of 11kg bags.
Equally, the premixed materials that are sold under some of the
manufacturer's other brand labels such as Dunlop are not well suited to
the applications I had.

Ardex came up with a solution that could be made to cover the entire
requirement of fixing and grouting by choice of commercial adhesive,
admix and primer and then grout and admix for that part. It also
ended up being the least expensive approach to the complete job. A
primer was used for the plywood to assist bonding to that. The admix
for the adhesive both makes it flexible but also extends working time.
The same was true for the grout. Professional tilers often use
faster setting adhesives because they can work faster or have an
assistant doing part of the work. Often there is a requirement to
walk on the tiles fairly soon after laying.

For the occasional tiler, they told me that short open time can be
risky and that especially in warm conditions can waste a lot of
material because the adhesive has gone off too quickly. Crucially,
for grout, the suggestion was to use a slower setting one and also to
seal the tiles after fixing but before grouting using Lithofin MN
Stainstop. For stone tiles, especially softer ones like limestone,
this is critical to avoid staining, but also significantly reduces
absorption of water. I was warned that rapid drying causes pin holes
and potential cracking, as does mixing to the wrong consistency. I
wonder whether ceramic tiles absorb water through the sides of the tile.

Regarding the grout mixing, it was recommended to proceed slowly and
after the initial addition of powder to water and the first stirring,
to allow the adhesive to slake for a few minutes and then stir again,
adjusting consistency if needed.

I also bought a couple of books. Considering the investment in the
materials and time, I thought that that would be a worthwhile
investment. Of these, the best I found was one called Setting Tile by
Michael Byrne. It's a U.S. book, which results in measurements being
in imperial, which is unfortunate, but the techniques, materials and
content are generic. He gives a large number of hints, tips and
methods that come from his own experiences. For £11.50, it's a good buy.

On 2007-08-14 12:15:41 +0100, Owain said:

Andy Hall wrote:
I've just completed a tiling job using large format (305mm sq.)
limestone tiles.... ... the best I found was one called Setting Tile by
Michael Byrne. It's a U.S. book, which results in measurements being
in imperial, which is unfortunate,

but given you were using 305mm tiles anyway, not too big a problem :-)

Owain

Well exactly. There were quite a few cuts, and of course the tile
circular saw has proper metric scales.

While I think of it, I also bought some tile layout software -
Precision Tile from another U.S. source, Laurel Creek Software.

My objective was to do some trial layouts which are important anyway
but especially where large format tiles are used. Initially I had
thought of using Autosketch or Google's thing or even bits of graph
paper, but it seemed like a lot of work.

Then I happened on Precision Tile and looked in detail through the web
site http://www.laurelcreeksoftware.com

It seemed to do what I wanted in terms of being a simple to use,
application specific CAD program that allows visualisations and more
importantly, allows quick changes to be made. In effect, it's like a
simpler version of some of the kitchen design packages.

Normally I like to have download evaluations of software before buying,
and this does have the disadvantage of only running on Windows rather
than an operating system, but at $24.95 with electronic delivery (about
£13), in the context of an investment of a few hundred £ in tiles and
materials it seemed reasonable.

The results are excellent. I can run it in a Parallels or VMWare
environment and it does what the author describes. I was able to
produce basic layouts for the room in well under an hour by inputting
tile dimensions and grout widths and then simply drawing the walls.
The tiles can then be overlaid and moved around in different trial
layouts. At one point, I considered adding in bands of small
mosaics towards the corners of two of the walls, but this not only
didn't look right visually, but wouldn't have fitted correctly.

A more difficult problem was the vertical positioning of the tiles.
There were three options for this, being

- to split the cuts equally at top and bottom of the tiling

- to split the space equally between the top of the tiling and a length
of granite used for the basin

- to split the space equally between the underside of a cupboard and
the top of a different piece of granite used to make a top for the
cistern enclosure.

This was debated long and hard. The technically correct solution is
the first one, but it does not produce a good visual appearance around
the focal point when walking into the room, which is the basin and
granite counter on which it sits. As a result, I went for the second
option, which is somewhat better than the third with both looking
better than the first.

I did also mock up bits of the layout in the room with old sample tiles
that I scrounged from the supplier.

It was certainly worth spending the time on trying out the layouts and
coincidentally saved on cuts and material used - the software gives an
indication of how many tiles will be needed.

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:47:51 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

In my experience an 'ordinary' sponge won't last the job but a
grouting sponge will outlast it. (My 'ordinary' one was part of a free
car cleaning kit. It was in shreads in no time. The proper one that I
got finished the fully tiled bathroom and is still fit for use, no
sign of shredding.)

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-13 23:47:51 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Had two jobs this/last week involving grouting wall tiles, one where I
have
tiled a wall and one where I raked out the old grout on existing tiles.

It's been really hot & humid in sunny Medway this/last week and both
bathrooms have been short on the ventilation front.

In both cases I've noticed that the grout in small areas has dried with
small 'pinholes' in it.

The newly tiled wall should have been dry, tiled on Saturday, grouted
Monday. The raked out grouted wall showed the same symptoms.

Used a proper grout float on both walls, proper grout finisher, different
make of adhesive/grout in each case, both newly purchased. Not seem this
before.

Is it the humidity & temperature that causes this? PITA as I had to
regrout
in both cases to get a good finish.

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

I've just completed a tiling job using large format (305mm sq.) limestone
tiles. I went to a lot of trouble contacting the major adhesives
manufacturers and talking to their technical departments. Probably the
two significant ones in terms of coverage of applications are Ardex and
Weber (used to be Howtex).

Ardex were especially helpful in terms of choice of fixing system and
procedures to use and their web site has a lot of useful information for
different applications. I was especially concerned about fixing to
different surfaces - in the same room there are plasterboard, ply,
plaster. Ideally, one should use a different fixing and sometimes
grouting approach for each of these (can be more if it will be a wet
area), but I wasn't going to buy three different sets of materials -
especially when each comes in minimum of 11kg bags. Equally, the
premixed materials that are sold under some of the manufacturer's other
brand labels such as Dunlop are not well suited to the applications I had.

Ardex came up with a solution that could be made to cover the entire
requirement of fixing and grouting by choice of commercial adhesive, admix
and primer and then grout and admix for that part. It also ended up
being the least expensive approach to the complete job. A primer was
used for the plywood to assist bonding to that. The admix for the
adhesive both makes it flexible but also extends working time. The same
was true for the grout. Professional tilers often use faster setting
adhesives because they can work faster or have an assistant doing part of
the work. Often there is a requirement to walk on the tiles fairly soon
after laying.

For the occasional tiler, they told me that short open time can be risky
and that especially in warm conditions can waste a lot of material because
the adhesive has gone off too quickly. Crucially, for grout, the
suggestion was to use a slower setting one and also to seal the tiles
after fixing but before grouting using Lithofin MN Stainstop. For stone
tiles, especially softer ones like limestone, this is critical to avoid
staining, but also significantly reduces absorption of water. I was
warned that rapid drying causes pin holes and potential cracking, as does
mixing to the wrong consistency. I wonder whether ceramic tiles absorb
water through the sides of the tile.

Regarding the grout mixing, it was recommended to proceed slowly and after
the initial addition of powder to water and the first stirring, to allow
the adhesive to slake for a few minutes and then stir again, adjusting
consistency if needed.

I also bought a couple of books. Considering the investment in the
materials and time, I thought that that would be a worthwhile investment.
Of these, the best I found was one called Setting Tile by Michael Byrne.
It's a U.S. book, which results in measurements being in imperial, which
is unfortunate, but the techniques, materials and content are generic.
He gives a large number of hints, tips and methods that come from his own
experiences. For £11.50, it's a good buy.


What was up with "I was warned that rapid drying causes pin holes and
potential cracking, as does mixing to the wrong consistency" instead of
adding all the pretentious waffle?
The OP only wanted to know if humidity & temperature causes pinholes not
your life story.

On 2007-08-14 17:27:25 +0100, "No Kidding" idontlikemond@ys said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-08-13 23:47:51 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Had two jobs this/last week involving grouting wall tiles, one where I
have
tiled a wall and one where I raked out the old grout on existing tiles.

It's been really hot & humid in sunny Medway this/last week and both
bathrooms have been short on the ventilation front.

In both cases I've noticed that the grout in small areas has dried with
small 'pinholes' in it.

The newly tiled wall should have been dry, tiled on Saturday, grouted
Monday. The raked out grouted wall showed the same symptoms.

Used a proper grout float on both walls, proper grout finisher, different
make of adhesive/grout in each case, both newly purchased. Not seem this
before.

Is it the humidity & temperature that causes this? PITA as I had to
regrout
in both cases to get a good finish.

BTW is there actually any difference between a 'grouting sponge' and a
'sponge' - apart from the price? I cant see any.

I've just completed a tiling job using large format (305mm sq.) limestone
tiles. I went to a lot of trouble contacting the major adhesives
manufacturers and talking to their technical departments. Probably the
two significant ones in terms of coverage of applications are Ardex and
Weber (used to be Howtex).

Ardex were especially helpful in terms of choice of fixing system and
procedures to use and their web site has a lot of useful information for
different applications. I was especially concerned about fixing to
different surfaces - in the same room there are plasterboard, ply,
plaster. Ideally, one should use a different fixing and sometimes
grouting approach for each of these (can be more if it will be a wet
area), but I wasn't going to buy three different sets of materials -
especially when each comes in minimum of 11kg bags. Equally, the
premixed materials that are sold under some of the manufacturer's other
brand labels such as Dunlop are not well suited to the applications I had.

Ardex came up with a solution that could be made to cover the entire
requirement of fixing and grouting by choice of commercial adhesive, admix
and primer and then grout and admix for that part. It also ended up
being the least expensive approach to the complete job. A primer was
used for the plywood to assist bonding to that. The admix for the
adhesive both makes it flexible but also extends working time. The same
was true for the grout. Professional tilers often use faster setting
adhesives because they can work faster or have an assistant doing part of
the work. Often there is a requirement to walk on the tiles fairly soon
after laying.

For the occasional tiler, they told me that short open time can be risky
and that especially in warm conditions can waste a lot of material because
the adhesive has gone off too quickly. Crucially, for grout, the
suggestion was to use a slower setting one and also to seal the tiles
after fixing but before grouting using Lithofin MN Stainstop. For stone
tiles, especially softer ones like limestone, this is critical to avoid
staining, but also significantly reduces absorption of water. I was
warned that rapid drying causes pin holes and potential cracking, as does
mixing to the wrong consistency. I wonder whether ceramic tiles absorb
water through the sides of the tile.

Regarding the grout mixing, it was recommended to proceed slowly and after
the initial addition of powder to water and the first stirring, to allow
the adhesive to slake for a few minutes and then stir again, adjusting
consistency if needed.

I also bought a couple of books. Considering the investment in the
materials and time, I thought that that would be a worthwhile investment.
Of these, the best I found was one called Setting Tile by Michael Byrne.
It's a U.S. book, which results in measurements being in imperial, which
is unfortunate, but the techniques, materials and content are generic.
He gives a large number of hints, tips and methods that come from his own
experiences. For £11.50, it's a good buy.


What was up with "I was warned that rapid drying causes pin holes and
potential cracking, as does mixing to the wrong consistency" instead of
adding all the pretentious waffle?

There's no pretentious waffle - simply some additional information,
which in the context of tiling projects may well be useful.


The OP only wanted to know if humidity & temperature causes pinholes not
your life story.

Were you actually contributing anything or just pricking your own pinholes?