My kitchen ceiling was damaged a while ago by various water leaks. I'm
going to fix it very soon, and thought I should take the opportunity to
sort out the lighting while I can still run the cables.

The current arrangement is a single 3-spot fitting in the centre of the
room. This forces you to work in your own shadow at every single
worktop, even the one that projects out into the middle.

Here's a picture of the room at present:
http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/kitchen.jpg . It's taken from the
doorway; the worktop bottom right is the one that sticks into the middle
of the room, the brown line down the right edge of the picture is the
side of a cupboard that's above it, on the wall opposite the main run of
cupboards. The cooker is in the rightmost corner (not visible).

I'll be having the ceiling plastered smooth, and I'll be painting it
white. So I quite like the idea of having some fluorescent tubes on top
of the wall units in the picture, reflecting their light off the
ceiling. My concern is that the distance between cupboard top and
ceiling is not massive - is the light likely to spread properly across
the room, or just be lighting up the edge above the cupboards?

I'd also fit a downlighter above the sticking-out worktop, and above the
sink - the two main places where you're currently in your own shadow.
I'd like to do the same for the cooker, but it has a big stainless hood
above it and with someone stood in front I don't think there's anywhere
to aim the light in. The hood does have a small light in so it's not
vital. Finally, I'd put small strips under the cupboards to light up the
main run of worktop.

Does all this seem reasonable? I have no experience on which to judge
light levels - am I likely to be massively over- or under-lighting the room?

How would one typically wire cupboard-top fluoro tubes? An FCU on the
wall and then flex to the tube holder sitting on the cupboard?

What sort of tube power should I pick? And what sort of technology for
the downlighters?

Any other advice?

Cheers,

Pete

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:59:50 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:

My kitchen ceiling was damaged a while ago by various water leaks. I'm
going to fix it very soon, and thought I should take the opportunity to
sort out the lighting while I can still run the cables.

The current arrangement is a single 3-spot fitting in the centre of the
room. This forces you to work in your own shadow at every single
worktop, even the one that projects out into the middle.

Here's a picture of the room at present:
http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/kitchen.jpg . It's taken from the
doorway; the worktop bottom right is the one that sticks into the middle
of the room, the brown line down the right edge of the picture is the
side of a cupboard that's above it, on the wall opposite the main run of
cupboards. The cooker is in the rightmost corner (not visible).

I'll be having the ceiling plastered smooth, and I'll be painting it
white. So I quite like the idea of having some fluorescent tubes on top
of the wall units in the picture, reflecting their light off the
ceiling. My concern is that the distance between cupboard top and
ceiling is not massive - is the light likely to spread properly across
the room, or just be lighting up the edge above the cupboards?

I'd also fit a downlighter above the sticking-out worktop, and above the
sink - the two main places where you're currently in your own shadow.
I'd like to do the same for the cooker, but it has a big stainless hood
above it and with someone stood in front I don't think there's anywhere
to aim the light in. The hood does have a small light in so it's not
vital. Finally, I'd put small strips under the cupboards to light up the
main run of worktop.

Does all this seem reasonable? I have no experience on which to judge
light levels - am I likely to be massively over- or under-lighting the room?

How would one typically wire cupboard-top fluoro tubes? An FCU on the
wall and then flex to the tube holder sitting on the cupboard?

What sort of tube power should I pick? And what sort of technology for
the downlighters?

Any other advice?

Cheers,

Pete

This topic was discussed on 13th October .
I have just removed a 3 x reflector fitting as I was fed up being in
my own shadow .I have gone from fluorescent to ordinary bulb to
halogen and the reflectors and have now gone back to fluoroescent .
I fitted this one having seen it mentioned in that other thread .
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MLTFL58W.html
It's like chalk and cheese .I also have tubes under the cupboards
which is great also.

Pete Verdon d
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 19:59

My kitchen ceiling was damaged a while ago by various water leaks. I'm
going to fix it very soon, and thought I should take the opportunity to
sort out the lighting while I can still run the cables.

The current arrangement is a single 3-spot fitting in the centre of the
room. This forces you to work in your own shadow at every single
worktop, even the one that projects out into the middle.

Here's a picture of the room at present:
http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/kitchen.jpg . It's taken from the
doorway; the worktop bottom right is the one that sticks into the middle
of the room, the brown line down the right edge of the picture is the
side of a cupboard that's above it, on the wall opposite the main run of
cupboards. The cooker is in the rightmost corner (not visible).

I'll be having the ceiling plastered smooth, and I'll be painting it
white. So I quite like the idea of having some fluorescent tubes on top
of the wall units in the picture, reflecting their light off the
ceiling. My concern is that the distance between cupboard top and
ceiling is not massive - is the light likely to spread properly across
the room, or just be lighting up the edge above the cupboards?
I'd also fit a downlighter above the sticking-out worktop, and above the
sink - the two main places where you're currently in your own shadow.
I'd like to do the same for the cooker, but it has a big stainless hood
above it and with someone stood in front I don't think there's anywhere
to aim the light in. The hood does have a small light in so it's not
vital. Finally, I'd put small strips under the cupboards to light up the
main run of worktop.

Does all this seem reasonable? I have no experience on which to judge
light levels - am I likely to be massively over- or under-lighting the
room?

You can never have too much light in a kitchen - especially as the under
cupboard strips can all be fluro strips so efficient.

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

How would one typically wire cupboard-top fluoro tubes? An FCU on the
wall and then flex to the tube holder sitting on the cupboard?

That's one option. I'm going to joint the flex to the T+E above the ceiling
in my case - but that is in a loft void, so guaranteed accessible. Another
option is to stick a 5A socket (you know, the old round pin ones) just
under the ceiling and plug the whole linked strip in (socket is on the
lighting circuit of course). But an unfused FCU also on the lighting
circuit would be fine.

What sort of tube power should I pick? And what sort of technology for
the downlighters?

One with a standard tube size like T5 (T4 can be weird), eg:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BRL0548.html

Choose lengths according to each cupboard or run (allowing space for the
connectors and the brightness should be fine.

Any other advice?

Cheers,

Pete

Although the lamps I linked to can be switched at each point, it may be
worth adding extra switches so you can bring the under-cupboard lights on
seperately.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

In article ,
Tim W writes:
Pete Verdon d
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 19:59

My kitchen ceiling was damaged a while ago by various water leaks. I'm
going to fix it very soon, and thought I should take the opportunity to
sort out the lighting while I can still run the cables.

The current arrangement is a single 3-spot fitting in the centre of the
room. This forces you to work in your own shadow at every single
worktop, even the one that projects out into the middle.

Here's a picture of the room at present:
http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/kitchen.jpg . It's taken from the
doorway; the worktop bottom right is the one that sticks into the middle
of the room, the brown line down the right edge of the picture is the
side of a cupboard that's above it, on the wall opposite the main run of
cupboards. The cooker is in the rightmost corner (not visible).

I'll be having the ceiling plastered smooth, and I'll be painting it
white. So I quite like the idea of having some fluorescent tubes on top
of the wall units in the picture, reflecting their light off the
ceiling. My concern is that the distance between cupboard top and
ceiling is not massive - is the light likely to spread properly across
the room, or just be lighting up the edge above the cupboards?
I'd also fit a downlighter above the sticking-out worktop, and above the
sink - the two main places where you're currently in your own shadow.
I'd like to do the same for the cooker, but it has a big stainless hood
above it and with someone stood in front I don't think there's anywhere
to aim the light in. The hood does have a small light in so it's not
vital. Finally, I'd put small strips under the cupboards to light up the
main run of worktop.

Does all this seem reasonable? I have no experience on which to judge
light levels - am I likely to be massively over- or under-lighting the
room?

You can never have too much light in a kitchen - especially as the under
cupboard strips can all be fluro strips so efficient.

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

Yes, exactly what I do too.

How would one typically wire cupboard-top fluoro tubes? An FCU on the
wall and then flex to the tube holder sitting on the cupboard?

That's one option. I'm going to joint the flex to the T+E above the ceiling
in my case - but that is in a loft void, so guaranteed accessible. Another
option is to stick a 5A socket (you know, the old round pin ones) just
under the ceiling and plug the whole linked strip in (socket is on the
lighting circuit of course). But an unfused FCU also on the lighting
circuit would be fine.

I suggest the use of Klik lighting plugs and sockets.
You want Klik S26 Architrave sockets mounted on the wall
just above and just below your cupboards.

What sort of tube power should I pick? And what sort of technology for
the downlighters?

One with a standard tube size like T5 (T4 can be weird), eg:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BRL0548.html

Choose lengths according to each cupboard or run (allowing space for the
connectors and the brightness should be fine.

They are old T5 technology (the 4, 6, 8, 13W short tubes).

If you have standard 60cm wide units, the new T5 tubes are
designed to exactly match these, i.e. they are multiples
of 60cm long (1x, 2x, and 3x 60cm), minus a fixed amount
(about 4cm) to allow for end-caps.
(There are some other lengths too -- actually they are all
designed to match modular ceiling panel sizes.)

For each size, there is a HO (high output) bright tube, and
a HE (high efficiency) less bright tube. I usually fit the
HO tubes on top of the cupboards, and always fit the HE tubes
under cupboards. Make sure all the colours match - colour
835 would be my choice for a well lit kitchen.

For 3 cupboard's width, the HO is an 80W tube, and the HE is
a 35W tube. For 1 cupboard's width, they're 24W and 14W
respectively.

I don't buy fittings -- they're hard to find and usually too
bulky. I just buy bare ballasts (they're all electronic) and
the G5 endcaps, and if you're using loose endcaps, you need
terry clips to hold the tubes. The HO tubes get very hot, so
space them away from the surface.

For the under cupboard lights, you want them as far forward
as possible so you aren't looking at the tube reflection in
the middle of the worktop. I fix them to the back of the
pelmet. For the over cupboard lighting, again you want them
near the front rather than at the back. If you don't have a
top pelmet, then push them back just far enough that the
tubes are out of direct sight.

Any other advice?

Cheers,

Pete

Although the lamps I linked to can be switched at each point, it may be
worth adding extra switches so you can bring the under-cupboard lights on
seperately.

Yes, I switch the general lighting (above cupboard) separately
from the task lighting (worktop and downlighters).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 21:48

I suggest the use of Klik lighting plugs and sockets.
You want Klik S26 Architrave sockets mounted on the wall
just above and just below your cupboards.

Hmm Hager... Nice. I notice that they can be got from RS for surprisingly
little dosh:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/s...ct&R=226608 8

and

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/s...ct&R=226835 9
--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Andrew Gabriel
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 21:48

One with a standard tube size like T5 (T4 can be weird), eg:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BRL0548.html

Choose lengths according to each cupboard or run (allowing space for the
connectors and the brightness should be fine.

They are old T5 technology (the 4, 6, 8, 13W short tubes).

If you have standard 60cm wide units, the new T5 tubes are
designed to exactly match these, i.e. they are multiples
of 60cm long (1x, 2x, and 3x 60cm), minus a fixed amount
(about 4cm) to allow for end-caps.
(There are some other lengths too -- actually they are all
designed to match modular ceiling panel sizes.)

For each size, there is a HO (high output) bright tube, and
a HE (high efficiency) less bright tube. I usually fit the
HO tubes on top of the cupboards, and always fit the HE tubes
under cupboards. *Make sure all the colours match - colour
835 would be my choice for a well lit kitchen.

Any pointers on where to get the new ones Andrew?

ie is this one?

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/75230/...-T5-Striplight

What would you do if you could mostly use those, but have an odd 40cm wide
islanded cupboard that you'd like to match the lighting, such as I will
have?

Sorry for being thick - too many choices, don't have a feel for this stuff;
thought I was safe having rejected T4 in favour of T5!

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Tim W wrote:

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

Thanks for this, and the other advice.

I'm still unsure what sort of light I should be using for the
downlighters. My impression is that this is in something of a state of
flux. I guess 12v halogens are the "default", but should I be looking at
something else as well?

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
Tim W wrote:

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

Thanks for this, and the other advice.

I'm still unsure what sort of light I should be using for the
downlighters. My impression is that this is in something of a state of
flux. I guess 12v halogens are the "default", but should I be looking at
something else as well?

Pete

We have 8 of these in a large kitchen cieling and they serve us well.
However they are not ecologically friendly. I dislike flourescent tubes
in the cieling.
Are there any alternatives to 12v halogens (50watt) or does the industry
consider this still to be 'work in progress'?

--
R100RT
Aprilia Pegaso 650 IE "The Flying Mythos"
Formerly: James Captain, A10, C15, B25, Dnepr M16 solo, R80/7, R100RT
(green!)
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

In article ,
Jeweller writes:
Pete Verdon wrote:
Tim W wrote:

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

Thanks for this, and the other advice.

I'm still unsure what sort of light I should be using for the
downlighters. My impression is that this is in something of a state of
flux. I guess 12v halogens are the "default", but should I be looking at
something else as well?

I would consider making LEDs ones, but commercial ones of the right
colour and light output are still prohibitively expensive, so you
are probably stuck with halogens for the time being.

We have 8 of these in a large kitchen cieling and they serve us well.
However they are not ecologically friendly. I dislike flourescent tubes
in the cieling.
Are there any alternatives to 12v halogens (50watt) or does the industry
consider this still to be 'work in progress'?

The industry would tell you that you are using the wrong types of
lights for general lighting.

Pete is intending to use them for task lighting, which is the right
application. Hence he won't need anything like 50W nor anything like
8 of them.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Tim W writes:
Andrew Gabriel
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 21:48

One with a standard tube size like T5 (T4 can be weird), eg:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BRL0548.html

Choose lengths according to each cupboard or run (allowing space for the
connectors and the brightness should be fine.

They are old T5 technology (the 4, 6, 8, 13W short tubes).

If you have standard 60cm wide units, the new T5 tubes are
designed to exactly match these, i.e. they are multiples
of 60cm long (1x, 2x, and 3x 60cm), minus a fixed amount
(about 4cm) to allow for end-caps.
(There are some other lengths too -- actually they are all
designed to match modular ceiling panel sizes.)

For each size, there is a HO (high output) bright tube, and
a HE (high efficiency) less bright tube. I usually fit the
HO tubes on top of the cupboards, and always fit the HE tubes
under cupboards. *Make sure all the colours match - colour
835 would be my choice for a well lit kitchen.

Any pointers on where to get the new ones Andrew?

I buy the lighting components separately.
T5 electronic ballasts mainly from eBay. Have also used Farnell
and RS, but choice very limited (and often no longer stocked).
G5 lampholders and 5/8" terry clips from CPC (probably RS too).
T5 tubes from mail order suppliers. Make sure you choose ones
with the colour temperature specified, and all matching.

ie is this one?

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/75230/...-T5-Striplight

Yes it is. The new T5's start from 14W, whereas the old ones
go up to 13W. 14W is a HE tube (24W is the equivalent HO tube).

What would you do if you could mostly use those, but have an odd 40cm wide
islanded cupboard that you'd like to match the lighting, such as I will
have?

I have an example like this, where I've recessed a 21W 2D lamp
into the top of the cupboard. It's recessed because the cupboard
faces a step down into the kitchen from a slightly higher dining
room, and if it was on top without being recessed (and without any
cupboard top pelmets), the tube would be visible from the dining
room. I'll dig out some pictures and put them up (probably not
until next week).

You could use an 8W old type T5 tube.

When you start using multiple tube ranges, you will introduce
the additional difficulty of matching tube colours across
ranges.

Sorry for being thick - too many choices, don't have a feel for this stuff;
thought I was safe having rejected T4 in favour of T5!

T4 products are easier to find in the likes of B&Q, CPC, etc.
Just beware that when a manufacturer goes to the wall (like
Omicron seems to have), you will have to replace the fittings
too, as T4 tube sizes and power ratings are not standardised.

The other thing I prefer about T5 are the availability of the
HO (high output) tubes, which IME are better for general
lighting, but would be too bright for the task lighting where
HE (High Efficiency) tubes can be used instead.

It's worth mentioning T8 as well. T8 tubes and gear are easier
to find, and if you can hide T8 tubes, there's no reason to
avoid them. I tend to use T5 tubes because in my situation,
the T5 tubes have been easier to hide.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel
wibbled on Saturday 31 October 2009 10:26

snip?

T4 products are easier to find in the likes of B&Q, CPC, etc.
Just beware that when a manufacturer goes to the wall (like
Omicron seems to have), you will have to replace the fittings
too, as T4 tube sizes and power ratings are not standardised.

The other thing I prefer about T5 are the availability of the
HO (high output) tubes, which IME are better for general
lighting, but would be too bright for the task lighting where
HE (High Efficiency) tubes can be used instead.

It's worth mentioning T8 as well. T8 tubes and gear are easier
to find, and if you can hide T8 tubes, there's no reason to
avoid them. I tend to use T5 tubes because in my situation,
the T5 tubes have been easier to hide.


That's really useful information - thank you for taking the time.
Fortunately I haven't bought anything yet so I can use all this.

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
Jeweller writes:
Pete Verdon wrote:
Tim W wrote:

I agree with your layout - it should work nicely.

Thanks for this, and the other advice.

I'm still unsure what sort of light I should be using for the
downlighters. My impression is that this is in something of a state of
flux. I guess 12v halogens are the "default", but should I be looking at
something else as well?

I would consider making LEDs ones, but commercial ones of the right
colour and light output are still prohibitively expensive, so you
are probably stuck with halogens for the time being.

I would be interested in your opinion of these
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GULED3W.html


We have 8 of these in a large kitchen cieling and they serve us well.
However they are not ecologically friendly. I dislike flourescent tubes
in the cieling.
Are there any alternatives to 12v halogens (50watt) or does the industry
consider this still to be 'work in progress'?

The industry would tell you that you are using the wrong types of
lights for general lighting.

Pete is intending to use them for task lighting, which is the right
application. Hence he won't need anything like 50W nor anything like
8 of them.


--
Robert

In article ,
robert writes:

I would be interested in your opinion of these
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GULED3W.html

"Colour Temperatu 5000-7000 K"

That makes it unsuitable for any use that I can think of.
You want same colour temperature as the other lights
in the room. I recommended 3500K earlier in the thread
for a kitchen. Living areas of a home usually use lower
lighting levels, and 2700K is more appropriate in that
case.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
writes:
On 31 Oct,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

That makes it unsuitable for any use that I can think of.
You want same colour temperature as the other lights
in the room. I recommended 3500K earlier in the thread
for a kitchen. Living areas of a home usually use lower
lighting levels, and 2700K is more appropriate in that
case.

If I could find suitable lamps I'd go up to 3500K minimum.

Trouble is, you need significantly higher lighting level
(at least twice the illuminance level) at 3500K for it to
appear natural. Doing that with 1-to-1 swap of filament
lamp for a CFL retrofit is unlikely.

Judging by what I see shining out of the windows, I think one or two of my
neighbours are using lamps of about 6500K. I suspect they are sourced from
abroad.

I see them too, and they are available here.
I often wonder if the purchase was a mistake, or if
deliberate, if they subsequently thought it was a good idea.
6000K requires 100-1000 times the illuminance level to look
natural (lookup Kruithof curve), and I doubt they replaced
one 100W lamp with 100 x 6000K retrofits!

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]