"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Bruce
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 20:35
I'm not sure if I'm completely happy with saying sod 'em and let them rot
though. If "we" are amongst the more "civilised" peoples, we should not
stop trying to help people who are less fortunate.

It isn't a matter of being fortunate. It's a matter of being civilised.

Bill

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:48:55 +0000, Tim W wrote:
But Bill Wright's rant was in no way reasonable, nor balanced,
Of course it wan't balanced. It was a personal opinion. I'm not going to add
a section of loony left ranting to balance my views am I?

but
based entirely on ignorant prejudice and the politics of hatred. It
was an attempt to kill any chance of debate and impose bigoted views
that have not been considered acceptable since the end of World War 2.

Acceptable to who?


It is exactly the tactic employed by the BNP, who are not interested
in debate, but wish instead to build on and generate irrational
prejudice and hatred towards anyone who doesn't fit some arbitrary
(and quite unsupportable) definition of "White British".
The BNP are loony racists, pure and simple. No matter what they say they are
racists, and that is behind all their policies. I'm not a racist. Go on,
prove that I'm a racist.

Bill

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Bruce
Anyway, any society so immature that it cannot withstand old Enoch's
speech
is perhaps deserving of the mess it finds itself in later.

Yes well, the left like to gag right wing speakers by labelling them racist.

Bill

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On 29 Oct, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

100 nuclear power stations = 100,000 windmills, each one occupying the
land area of a nuclear power station more or less.

A windmill will occupy less than the amount of land in square yards that
a
nuclear site occupies in acres. It takes little land to plant a pole.


Yes, but you cant stack them all in the same bit of land.

They all need access roads to them.

They all need wires going to them.

They all need blowing up.

Bill

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Bruce wrote:
Almost nil. Dont build systems that can be run with total disregard for
sfety, and employ drunk ukrainains to run them is a good starting point.

Racist!

Bill

Tim W wrote:
Bruce
wibbled on Thursday 29 October 2009 20:35


You are Nick Griffin and I claim my £5.

You just verified my assertion the other day, in principle at least, when I
said:

*You try to start a reasoned and balanced debate on "Is excessive
immigration bad for Britain" without being instantly labelled as BNP.*

The modern day equivalent of Godwin's law perhaps?

The sinister side of political correctness (i.e. once you get past the
vertically challenged / differently attractive nonsense) shows its true
purpose. It enables you to suppress not only debate on various topics,
but also relegate many concepts to that of a "thought crime".

Bill makes some interesting arguments. I agree partly with his points. The
africans (generalised, exceptions noted) do seem good at producing corrupt
regimes beyond their fair share. Not all of africa is a parched wasteland
and just look at the mineral resources in South Africa.

I'm not sure if I'm completely happy with saying sod 'em and let them rot
though. If "we" are amongst the more "civilised" peoples, we should not
stop trying to help people who are less fortunate. However, we may need to
learn the best way to do that, and giving a massive pile of dosh that
instantly gets usurped into el-generalissimo's mucky mitts may not be the
best way...

Indeed.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Bruce wrote:

But Bill Wright's rant was in no way reasonable, nor balanced, but
based entirely on ignorant prejudice and the politics of hatred. It
was an attempt to kill any chance of debate and impose bigoted views
that have not been considered acceptable since the end of World War 2.

I think if you read some of Bill's regular posts, you would realise that
there were elements of playing Devil's advocate there. Even a hit of a
tongue pressed firmly in cheek. What he said (perhaps expressed rather
harshly) was that if what you are doing is not working, why carry on
doing it and expect to get different results? Similar arguments could be
applied to the "war on drugs" etc.

It is exactly the tactic employed by the BNP, who are not interested
in debate, but wish instead to build on and generate irrational
prejudice and hatred towards anyone who doesn't fit some arbitrary
(and quite unsupportable) definition of "White British".

The BNP will ride any bandwagon that they can loosely associate with
themselves in order to swell their support. Needless to say, that
support will not be particularly loyal or deep once they realise what
else they have associated with.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tim W wrote:

Anyway, any society so immature that it cannot withstand old Enoch's speech
is perhaps deserving of the mess it finds itself in later.

Its odd how being "offended" has been almost raised to the state of
capital crime now. There was a time where if someone complained that
they were offended by what someone else said, the response would have
been "so?", as it would have been implicitly understood that being able
to offend at will is a price / privilege that comes with living in
democracy with free speech. It may not be constructive to to cause
offence, but neither should it be legislated against.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:48:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:32:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:31:33 +0000, Derek Geldard
wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:58:49 -0500, Jules
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:07:53 +0000, Derek Geldard wrote:
So, the solution is simple, want it spelled out ?
More wind farms?


Spelled out in wind turbines ? That would be a thought to conjur with.

More seriously has anybody noticed that steady numbers of these things
having been built for a few years running now, their appearance
usually as seen from the motorways is getting more and more intrusive,
and I assume we are not there yet by a * very * long chalk.

Apparently we have "achieved" a total installed capacity of 4 GW this
year, including 1 GW installed in the last 12 months.

The projected total capacity for wind generated electricity is in the
region of 35 GW, so we are about 11% there. Only 89% to go. ;-)

oh no. that's *capacity*. In reality it only GENERATES about 30% on
average. So make that 10GW at best.
97% to go.


I agree that what is generated is a surprisingly small proportion of
their nominal capacity, but the two figures I quoted were defined on a
similar basis, so we are only 11% there, with another 89% to go.

Not really.Not if you want to be totally free of oil.

Thyat mens replacing gas, gheating oil, petrol diesel and everything.

About a 3:1 scale up.


I'm talking about what is planned, rather than what is sloshing about
in your tiny mind.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:53:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Those who consider nuclear power as a "no-brainer" solution to our
energy needs probably have no brain. ;-)

Well thats because you have a vested interest in something else, or have
swallowed the anti-nuke propaganda.


No, it's because I used to work in the nuclear industry.

At one time, I was pro-nuclear, but a few years working in the
industry cured me. ;-)

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:53:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dont build systems that can be run with total disregard for safety,


As in, all of the installations at Windscale/Sellafield, for example.


and employ drunk ukrainains to run them is a good starting point.


I don't think the workers at Sellafield are either drunk or Ukrainian.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:47:32 -0000, "Bill Wright"
wrote:
The BNP are loony racists, pure and simple. No matter what they say they are
racists, and that is behind all their policies. I'm not a racist. Go on,
prove that I'm a racist.


No need, you already proved it without any help from anyone.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:32:43 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

I have not checked the figures myself, but I have heard a number of
people state that more mercury is emitted in generating the extra
electricity needed to power old fashioned lamps, assuming that
generation is at the UK mix.

That may be true in the US with their more heavy reliance on coal, but
its not the case here.

The claim was made by, amongst others, a UK minister.

It may well be that, being a representative of the Labour Party,
they were lying, but I wouldn't be so sure as to make the categoric
statement you have.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:30:16 +0000 someone who may be Tim W
wrote this:-

Scary. Short of nuking them out of existence, what can you do. The poor sods
don't really have the luxury of the debate of "hmm, CFL or tungsten". Life
is running at a whole different level for a lot of them.

People are trying to set up a false question. Climate change
campaigners are well aware of the issues the poor face with climate
change. They are the ones who are already suffering the effects and
will suffer them most in the future. Take a look at the logos at the
bottom of http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=080_1175824841. For all
their faults, are Christian Aid, Cafod and Oxfam unaware of the
choices the poor face? I suggest they are not.

It is also false to paint all environmental organisations as being
run by rich westerners. To take one example, Friends of the Earth
policies are guided more by "southern" representatives than
"northern" ones. The influence can be seen by browsing
http://www.foei.org/

I heard an interesting set of facts last weekend. The person who
gave it didn't have the source, but I am happy to believe him.

UK population 1% of the world
UK emissions 3% of the world

Both the above are well known.

UK emissions since the start of the industrial revolution 17%

In other words we have a huge historic responsibility which we need
to discharge.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

David Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:30:16 +0000 someone who may be Tim W
wrote this:-

Scary. Short of nuking them out of existence, what can you do. The poor sods
don't really have the luxury of the debate of "hmm, CFL or tungsten". Life
is running at a whole different level for a lot of them.

People are trying to set up a false question. Climate change
campaigners are well aware of the issues the poor face with climate
change. They are the ones who are already suffering the effects and
will suffer them most in the future. Take a look at the logos at the
bottom of http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=080_1175824841. For all
their faults, are Christian Aid, Cafod and Oxfam unaware of the
choices the poor face? I suggest they are not.

It is also false to paint all environmental organisations as being
run by rich westerners. To take one example, Friends of the Earth
policies are guided more by "southern" representatives than
"northern" ones. The influence can be seen by browsing
http://www.foei.org/

I heard an interesting set of facts last weekend. The person who
gave it didn't have the source, but I am happy to believe him.

UK population 1% of the world
UK emissions 3% of the world

Both the above are well known.

UK emissions since the start of the industrial revolution 17%

In other words we have a huge historic responsibility which we need
to discharge.


I blame it all on the chinese myself. I am sure they invented fire. They
invented everything else.

Or was it the greeks., They invented the steam engine.


Or possibly the Mesopotamians. Didn't they invent farming, responsible
for completely transforming the ecosystem and creating the sahara?


Nope. I think its all God's fault, for inventing human beings and giving
them the wherewithal to affect the environment without giving them the
understanding of the implications.

Let God sort it out.

I need more coffee.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:02:14 +0000 someone who may be Bruce
wrote this:-

Calder Hall had a good safety record. The major problems were at the
original, adjacent Windscale site, where the 1957 fire in Pile 1 was
the worst nuclear accident on record until Three Mile Island and later
Chernobyl.

Are you trying to tell us that the various disasters at
Chelyabinsk-65/40 [1] were not as bad as the incident (a near
disaster, but not a disaster) at Three Mile Island? That
Krasnoyarsk-26 has had no effect on the surrounding area?

I will grant you that the Tomsk-7 explosion was after Three Mile
Island (and Chernobyl).


[1] I have used the cold war names. The various disasters can be
looked up in a search engine using the three names. There is a list
of locations at
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/nuclear_fac.htm



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:52:05 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
A windmill will occupy less than the amount of land in square yards that
a
nuclear site occupies in acres. It takes little land to plant a pole.

Yes, but you cant stack them all in the same bit of land.

They all need access roads to them.

They all need wires going to them.

They all need blowing up.

Inflatable wind turbines - whatever next? Of course they'd probably use
all the power they generated just in keeping themselves inflated - but
shhh, it's green tech, so it *must* be good ;-)

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:22:03 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:


I heard an interesting set of facts last weekend.

Here's another one *Another * CFL died yesterday. An Osram Dulux
Energy Saver 15W/827 120 ma , Made in Slovakia.

Allegedly rated 15,000 hrs. average life.

That's 2 out of 4 of this type after less than 6 months.

The person who
gave it didn't have the source, but I am happy to believe him.

UK population 1% of the world
UK emissions 3% of the world

Both the above are well known.

Surprisingly round figures, what ?


UK emissions since the start of the industrial revolution 17%


We didn't **** it all against the wall drinking cocktails out of
hollowed out pineapples.

In other words we have a huge historic responsibility which we need
to discharge.

I just set that against the benefits to all humanity of our
contributions to engineering, science, knowledge and medicine etc.

Where would India be without the railways and The English Language?

Derek

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:


Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.

Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.

Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable, what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.

Cheers

All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out. How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?

Derek

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:09:28 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:32:43 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

I have not checked the figures myself, but I have heard a number of
people state that more mercury is emitted in generating the extra
electricity needed to power old fashioned lamps, assuming that
generation is at the UK mix.

That may be true in the US with their more heavy reliance on coal, but
its not the case here.

The claim was made by, amongst others, a UK minister.

It may well be that, being a representative of the Labour Party,
they were lying, but I wouldn't be so sure as to make the categoric
statement you have.

Nulab ? Did he open his mouth ?

If so he lied.

Trust me.

Derek

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:47:32 -0000, "Bill Wright"
wrote:
The BNP are loony racists, pure and simple. No matter what they say they
are
racists, and that is behind all their policies. I'm not a racist. Go on,
prove that I'm a racist.


No need, you already proved it without any help from anyone.

That's not an answer.

Bill

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Bruce wrote:

But Bill Wright's rant was in no way reasonable, nor balanced, but
based entirely on ignorant prejudice and the politics of hatred. It
was an attempt to kill any chance of debate and impose bigoted views
that have not been considered acceptable since the end of World War 2.

I think if you read some of Bill's regular posts, you would realise that
there were elements of playing Devil's advocate there. Even a hit of a
tongue pressed firmly in cheek.
I'm glad someone has some insight.


The BNP will ride any bandwagon that they can loosely associate with
themselves in order to swell their support. Needless to say, that support
will not be particularly loyal or deep once they realise what else they
have associated with.
Most people in the UK are essentially decent and fair, and many that are
drawn to the BNP because they have been abandoned by the main parties are
actually repelled by the racism of that party. Or they perhaps swallow it
unhappily because there's no alternative party for them to support.

I know a BNP supporter who works with Poles and Asians and all sorts. He
gets on with them perfectly well and to him their race or origin is
irrelevant. He has to keep his BNP allegiance secret from them of course,
which is an absurd position to be in. Now that bloke, let's face it, isn't a
racist, but he's in a racist party because it's the only one he can find
that represents most of his views. This is how the BNP have captured a lot
of support, and if there was a determinedly non-racist party that opposed
immigration and political correctness and the general ******** that infest
mainstream politics they would soon capture a lot of the BNP's support.

Bill

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:

Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.

Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.

Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable, what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.

Cheers

All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out.

you should see about 2-3 times background for that area. Somewhat less
than dartmoor or other radon sites, but detectable.


How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?


None of course.

Derek

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:55:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out.

you should see about 2-3 times background for that area.

Not at all easy to measure without an ultra low-background counter
and/or concentrating the sample then.

Of course it all depends on precisely what you mean by "Hotspot".

Somewhat less
than dartmoor or other radon sites, but detectable.


How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?


None of course.


Derek

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby
wrote:


They were not designed and built as nuclear power stations. Their
requirement came from the political and military desire for us to have
cold war military toys.

Derek

Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.

Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.

Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable,

Which isotopes and in which direction did the wind carry them and how
far ?

what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.

Ditto politicians, ditto trade union leaders, and ditto activists,

Ditto everybody where kudos, money and/or effort is involved. A bit of
trivial corner cutting with the paperwork on a commercial contract.

Exactly the same happened to us. A German company supplied hundreds of
calibration certificates for detectors they sold us. Somebody at BNFL
held a sample of them up to the light together and noticed they were
absolutely identical. The German company apologised but said said we
on behalf of BNFL had pressed them for a low price and a fast delivery

That sort of thing has gone on as long as tinkers have been selling
horses, and a salesman will promiss the world on a golden plate to get
an order.


Cheers
Adam

Derek

David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:32:43 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

I have not checked the figures myself, but I have heard a number of
people state that more mercury is emitted in generating the extra
electricity needed to power old fashioned lamps, assuming that
generation is at the UK mix.
That may be true in the US with their more heavy reliance on coal, but
its not the case here.

The claim was made by, amongst others, a UK minister.

Quite possibly... IIRC (I don't have the reference to hand) the research
figures however come from the US which has a far higher reliance on coal
than we do in their power gen mix.

It may well be that, being a representative of the Labour Party,
they were lying, but I wouldn't be so sure as to make the categoric
statement you have.

I was not suggesting that he was lying - just ill informed. (not that I
would find it hard to believe a minister was lying).

There is a worked calculation he

http://www.energyrace.com/commentary..._cfls_updated/

No idea if its correct - but it looks plausible. You will note that the
lower Hg count is in favour of CFLs but only by a small margin. That is
based on US power generation, who uses a far higher percentage of coal
than we do.

Back to the point however, it was not the general level of environmental
Hg I was particularly concerned about (neither are desirable) - more the
local levels following breakages etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:55:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out.
you should see about 2-3 times background for that area.

Not at all easy to measure without an ultra low-background counter
and/or concentrating the sample then.


Not at all. If you get 5 clicks per minute on yer trusty geiger at home,
and 15 a minute there...

Thats how my friend did it back in the 70's. Hew was looking for
evidence of Nooclear CoverUps. Being a good leftie and all.

He found nothing at all except at sSellafiled, About 3x background. On
the beach

Dounreay was too far to travel too.



Of course it all depends on precisely what you mean by "Hotspot".


Nice emotive term. A coal ash tip is hotter, and so is dartmoor.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:13:26 +0000, me9 wrote:
I remember a lab (tech college) I worked in in the 60s. It did radiochemistry
(but had to be closed down at times when radiation levels increased). With
the normal substances used in the lab the counter hardly got up into the 30s.
When the senior lecturer got out his pocket watch the counter went beserk,
full scale deflection and a high pitched buzz.

I'm suddenly reminded of:

http://www.hunkinsexperiments.com/pa...earfission.htm

UK population 1% of the world
UK emissions 3% of the world
That's as it should be. We have led the world in industrialisation and now
we reap the benefits. It would be a poor do if we were only emitting the
same per capita as the blacks in Africa, after all the effort we put in
while they were still wasting their time being savages. CO2 emission is a
measure of success .

Bill

In other words we have a huge historic responsibility which we need
to discharge.
We've done so much good for the world that all the backward nations should
be grateful. They should be paying aid to us, not the other way round.

Bill

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:30:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:55:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out.
you should see about 2-3 times background for that area.

Not at all easy to measure without an ultra low-background counter
and/or concentrating the sample then.


Not at all. If you get 5 clicks per minute on yer trusty geiger at home,
and 15 a minute there...


Depends on the accuracy you need. FWIR the standard deviation is equal
to the square root of the total counts. IE roughly speaking to get an
accuracy of 1.4% you need to aquire 10,000 counts. Might as well call
it 1-2 days and check into a hotel for a night or two. A problem with
counting as long as that is that the counting instrument can pick up a
burst of counts from EMI or detector malfunctions and you'd never
know, whats more the instrument has probably never been tested in such
a stringent application.

Thats how my friend did it back in the 70's. Hew was looking for
evidence of Nooclear CoverUps. Being a good leftie and all.

He found nothing at all except at sSellafiled, About 3x background. On
the beach


All the nuclear stations (except Trawsfynneth) sample fish in aquatic
environment, you can usually see a boathouse near the sea some
distance from the reactors with a nuclear counting lab and a small
boat in it. We equipped the Magnox stations with them.

The greens would have "Oi polloi" believe they have a monopoly on
environmental monitoring.

Dounreay was too far to travel too.


I've heard that there is a quarry somewhere near the Aberdeen ring rd.
(Anderson drive ?) that is reputed to be "red hot". I've not found it
yet, which is one reason I asked our learned friend where his supposed
"hotspots" near Dounreay are, but he appears to want to keep his
little twinkling light under a bushel.


Of course it all depends on precisely what you mean by "Hotspot".


Nice emotive term. A coal ash tip is hotter, and so is dartmoor.


Derek

On 30 Oct, 16:24, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby



wrote:

Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.

Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.

Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable, what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.

Cheers

All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of *the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out. How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?

Derek

Sorry, bad term, they were commonly referred to as hotspots, but were
actually fragments of fuel rod washing up on the sho

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/409348.stm

http://www.sepa.org.uk/radioactive_s..._research.aspx

Serious enough risk that some beaches have been closed off for months
at a time.

People injured , who knows

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/vi...l-1586341.html

Dounreay`s mission is now to decommission, whatever the future of
nuclear , what`s learnt at Dounreay is extremely important in leraning
how to tempt genie back near bottle.

Problems with French installations, there have been some,do know that
the European Presurised Reactors, EPR, under construction,France and
Finland are way over budget and the other design lined up for the
U.K , Westinghouse AP1000 just hit safety design problems

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/nuclear...the_nucle.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-co...09/09-173.html

So nuclear isn`t the non fossil plug and play option the lobby would
lead you to believe.

Still no ones answered where proposed high level waste repository is
going to be?

Cheers
Adam

On 27 Oct, 15:29, Tim W wrote:
John Rumm
* wibbled on Tuesday 27 October 2009 14:54

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:26:32 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

If enough people bulk buy, then the inflated sales figures will convince
the manufactures there is enough demand that cares about bulb type to
carry on making them.

You mean the manufacturers will break the law?

They will - however they won't need to really since the laws bend. You
make them in areas without controls - import them for "specialist
purposes" - high temperature lamps, heating lamps, rough handling lamps
etc.

Ah, like that famous compost accelerator, ammonium sulfamate. Not a
weedkiller at all.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Or that excellent patio cleaner Armillatox. No way would you consider
that as a garden fungicide.

Pete Shew

Bill Wright wrote:
In other words we have a huge historic responsibility which we need
to discharge.
We've done so much good for the world that all the backward nations should
be grateful. They should be paying aid to us, not the other way round.


They are.

In so many ways.

But dont tell them.

Bill

Adam Aglionby wrote:
On 30 Oct, 16:24, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby



wrote:

Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.
Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.
Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable, what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.
Cheers
All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out. How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?

Derek

Sorry, bad term, they were commonly referred to as hotspots, but were
actually fragments of fuel rod washing up on the sho

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/409348.stm

http://www.sepa.org.uk/radioactive_s..._research.aspx

Serious enough risk that some beaches have been closed off for months
at a time.


IF the sort of luminous watches we all used to have post war, were
washed up on a beach, it would be, with today's standards, enough to
close off a beach.

As would half a dozen smoke alarms.



People injured , who knows


Obviouly no one does. As there are none.

Have you BEEN there?


I have actually. Its the most desolate and deserted piece of land in the UK.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/vi...l-1586341.html

Dounreay`s mission is now to decommission, whatever the future of
nuclear , what`s learnt at Dounreay is extremely important in leraning
how to tempt genie back near bottle.


Dounreay is a bloody nusiance. It was never built with decomissioning in
mind, and its proving a bugger to take apart to todays safety standards.

Of course in the 50's it would have been ripped apart and teh worst
stuff dumped in lead cans, and left there..


Problems with French installations, there have been some,do know that
the European Presurised Reactors, EPR, under construction,France and
Finland are way over budget and the other design lined up for the
U.K , Westinghouse AP1000 just hit safety design problems

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/nuclear...the_nucle.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-co...09/09-173.html


Well if you MUST read the Guardian,and greenpeace, you can hardly expect
objective reporting.


So nuclear isn`t the non fossil plug and play option the lobby would
lead you to believe.


It is actually.

Still no ones answered where proposed high level waste repository is
going to be?


reprocess it.

Burn it in reactors.

That's the obvious answer.

Eventually you end up with more or less fast decay uisotopes, and thse
only need storing for a short time anyway.

The earth is already full of long term isotopes, or we wouldn't have
nuclear power anyway. Putting the odd bit back hardly seems an issue.




Cheers
Adam

peteshew wrote:
On 27 Oct, 15:29, Tim W wrote:
John Rumm
wibbled on Tuesday 27 October 2009 14:54

David Hansen wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:26:32 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-
If enough people bulk buy, then the inflated sales figures will convince
the manufactures there is enough demand that cares about bulb type to
carry on making them.
You mean the manufacturers will break the law?
They will - however they won't need to really since the laws bend. You
make them in areas without controls - import them for "specialist
purposes" - high temperature lamps, heating lamps, rough handling lamps
etc.
Ah, like that famous compost accelerator, ammonium sulfamate. Not a
weedkiller at all.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Or that excellent patio cleaner Armillatox. No way would you consider
that as a garden fungicide.


You would if you had honey fungus.

Pete Shew

On 31 Oct, 10:11, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Adam Aglionby wrote:
On 30 Oct, 16:24, Derek Geldard wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:23:56 -0700 (PDT), Adam Aglionby

wrote:

Reasonably well informed about Dounreay, its toxic shaft, its liquid
waste tankers getting busted for bald tyres on public roads, the
radioactive hotspots on the shoreline and the classic JCB through the
power cables incident, through main and backup run beside each other
in the same trench.
Dounreay was fast reactor research but still generated power at some
point and crucial to learning how to clean up, the shaft is the wolds
most expensive crane grab game.
Short memories about safety at Sellafield, apart from Cockcroft`s
Follies on Calder Hall that saved Cumberland from still being
uninhabitable, what about the falsified records at the MOX plant ,
nuclear industry civil or military is not good at telling the truth.
Cheers
All in all probably right - ish.

But we don't intend to replicate that set up.

Can you tell a similar story about the largest Nuclear Site in Europe,
the French Commercial Reactors at Gravellines ?

Do you have the co-ords of *the hotspots on the coast near Dounreay
I'd like to go and check them out. How many people suffered internal
contamination from these hotspots and who were they ?

Derek

Sorry, bad term, they were commonly referred to as hotspots, but were
actually fragments of fuel rod washing up on the sho

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/409348.stm

http://www.sepa.org.uk/radioactive_s...ioning/dounrea...

Serious enough risk that some beaches have been closed off for months
at a time.

IF the sort of luminous watches we all used to have post war, were
washed up on a beach, it would be, with today's standards, enough to
close off a beach.

Glad you mentioned that, Dalgety Bay, radium contamination from
aircarft dial manufactu

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publicati...e-e851f9dfd863

Not regarded a major risk in that quantity , but Radium killed its
discoverer Marie Curie and lots of innocent factory workers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls

As would half a dozen smoke alarms.

People injured , who knows

Obviouly no one does. As there are none.

Have you BEEN there?

I have actually. Its the most desolate and deserted piece of land in the UK.

Couple of times, Thurso less than 15 miles away has an excellent chip
shop and one of the best stocked sweetie shops anywhere.
The clear light in the far north is a highly reccomended experience.

Think Cape Wrath at the other corner really gets award for most
desolate place.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/vi...ay-chiefs-of-b...

Dounreay`s mission is now to decommission, whatever the future of
nuclear , what`s learnt at Dounreay is extremely important in leraning
how to tempt genie back near bottle.

Dounreay is a bloody nusiance. It was never built with decomissioning in
mind, and its proving a bugger to take apart to todays safety standards.

The technology involved and the reliabilty required is astonishing,
can only admire the engineers working on the projects, anything after
is going to look simple.


Of course in the 50's it would have been ripped apart and teh worst
stuff dumped in lead cans, and left there..

Down the shaft, no lead cans...


Problems with French installations, there have been some,do know that
the European Presurised Reactors, EPR, under construction,France *and
Finland are way over budget and the other design lined up for the
U.K , Westinghouse AP1000 just hit safety design problems

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/nuclear...prs_problems_r...

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-co...09/09-173.html

Sorry whatever source , dosen`t change story , EPR is wildly over
budget.




Well if you MUST read the Guardian,and greenpeace, you can hardly expect
objective reporting.

Didn`t quote the Guardian, did quote the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory
Commision , which do hope is reasonably objective.

So nuclear isn`t the non fossil plug and play option the lobby would
lead you to believe.

It is actually.

EPR has yet to be built and is hitting problems, alternative has just
failed safety case, sorry what are you going to build a new generation
of AGRs?



*Still no ones answered where proposed high level waste repository is
going to be?

reprocess it.

Burn it in reactors.

That's the obvious answer.

So obvious no one is doing it.

Dounreay as a fast breeder failed.

Yucca Mountain has an uncertain future but the stuff has to go
somewhere, reprocessing jsut generates more low and mid waste and
false records:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_M...ste_repository



Eventually you end up with more or less fast decay uisotopes, and thse
only need storing for a short time anyway.

The earth is already full of long term isotopes, or we wouldn't have
nuclear power anyway. Putting the odd bit back hardly seems an issue.


None of them exist naturally in the concentrations we have created, if
only could water the darn stuff back down.

Cheers
Adam


Cheers
Adam

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:28:16 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

Back to the point however, it was not the general level of environmental
Hg I was particularly concerned about (neither are desirable) - more the
local levels following breakages etc.

I think that the "health & safety" lobby is going overboard on the
subject, the usual gold plating we see in the UK from people unable
to judge risks. Open a window if someone wants, but compared to
fillings it is a minor problem.

In large numbers it is a different issue, but I very much doubt if
more than one is broken in a house at any one time. I have broken
one or two since the early 1980s (obviously the old glass jar ones
were harder to break, but the ones without a glass jar have been
around for as long in the form of the Thorn 2D).


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:08:57 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Adam
Aglionby wrote this:-

Problems with French installations, there have been some,do know that
the European Presurised Reactors, EPR, under construction,France and
Finland are way over budget

And over time. I gather they have given up providing estimated
completion dates for the one in Finland.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:11:14 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Adam
Aglionby wrote this:-

Glad you mentioned that, Dalgety Bay, radium contamination from
aircarft dial manufactu

http://www.sepa.org.uk/radioactive_substances/publications/dalgety_bay_reports.aspx
has some more up to date reports.

Not regarded a major risk in that quantity

It is a while since I read some of the information. However, from
memory there would be a visible "burn", a red patch the skin, if an
adult was to hold some of the found particles against their skin for
around 15 minutes. In other words fairly "hot" and obviously much
more radioactive than a luminous watch.

The major risk is ingestion, which would expose people to the
particle for a long time. Adults are unlikely to be exposed to major
risk, but children could be. Children eat sand sometimes.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54