One of the first jobs to tackle in refitting the bathroom at our flat
will be the lighting. We're going to put up a pine T&G ceiling which
will be supported on battens screwed to the 'real' ceiling, thus there
will be space for the lights, wiring, etc. in the space behind the
T&G. (The 'real' ceiling is solid concrete as far as I can detect,
there's no access beyond it).

What sort of lights must I, can I or should I have? Are they required
by the regulations to be of a specific IP rating or anything, or
designated as bathroom lights, or what? Is there any more specific
requirement for any lights which are actually above the bath?
Six downlighters is probably what we'll go for, the ones at my
mother-in-laws house are very satisfactory in the bathroom.

The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

As a minor additional question what sorts of lights and switches can
one have above a washbasin, are only pull switches allowed for such
lights? (It'll be pretty close to the bath, it's not a big bathroom).

--
Chris Green )

wrote in message
...
One of the first jobs to tackle in refitting the bathroom at our flat
will be the lighting. We're going to put up a pine T&G ceiling which
will be supported on battens screwed to the 'real' ceiling, thus there
will be space for the lights, wiring, etc. in the space behind the
T&G. (The 'real' ceiling is solid concrete as far as I can detect,
there's no access beyond it).

What sort of lights must I, can I or should I have? Are they required
by the regulations to be of a specific IP rating or anything, or
designated as bathroom lights, or what? Is there any more specific
requirement for any lights which are actually above the bath?
Six downlighters is probably what we'll go for, the ones at my
mother-in-laws house are very satisfactory in the bathroom.

The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

As a minor additional question what sorts of lights and switches can
one have above a washbasin, are only pull switches allowed for such
lights? (It'll be pretty close to the bath, it's not a big bathroom).

--
Chris Green )

Firstly Chris, any switch gear should either be a normal plate switch
outside the bathroom or a pull cord switch if it is to be used within the
room itself. Normal plate switches can arc over to damp hands, which is not
a very nice feeling.

The lights should marked as being able to use in a bathroom and are normally
sealed dichroic low voltage systems. I think B&Q are doing them very cheap
at the moment, or so I am told, with a gang of three arrangement.

You say that six lights should be enough, so taking two of these sized
systems from the existing supply should not cause any problems.

The space above the lights will need to allow good ventilation though, as
these little lights can give off a good bit of heat if they're on for long
periods, and I normally tell folks to leave a good 75mm above them to a
solid ceiling for this very reason.

The transformers used on these units are slim enough to slip into the space
left for the light fittings, so that should also not cause you any problems.
But the only other advice I give, is for you to leave a small gap all around
them to let them dissipate their heat properly too. So lifting them on to
small blocks of wood at each end of the unit should be enough. Anything to
let air get all around them as much as possible.


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The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

The exact height of the ceiling is very important in determining the answer.
Can you measure it? It will reflect on which zone the ceiling is, in various
locations. The zone determines the IP rating required.

If we can assume that the ceiling is between 2.25m and 3m from the floor,
then it will be Zone 2 above the bath/shower, Zone 3 within 60cm of the
shower/bath and unzoned more than 60cm from the shower/bath. This means you
need IPX4 (where X is any number) fittings right above the shower/bath.
However, outside this area, any fitting can be used, provided you don't
intend to use a hose to clean your bathroom. If you do intend to use a hose,
you must use IPX5. IPX4 means splash resistant. IPX5 means resistant to
water jets.

As a minor additional question what sorts of lights and switches can
one have above a washbasin, are only pull switches allowed for such
lights? (It'll be pretty close to the bath, it's not a big bathroom).

If it is more than 60cm from the bath and shower, there is no blanket
requirement to use pull cord switches or use special light fittings.
However, there is a general requirement to use switches and luminaires
suitable for their location. Having a live switch right above a basin might
not be considered a good idea. I've heard 30cm being considered a rule of
thumb to determine how far from a sink an accessory should be installed.

Christian.

wrote:
One of the first jobs to tackle in refitting the bathroom at our flat
will be the lighting. We're going to put up a pine T&G ceiling which
will be supported on battens screwed to the 'real' ceiling, thus there
will be space for the lights, wiring, etc. in the space behind the
T&G. (The 'real' ceiling is solid concrete as far as I can detect,
there's no access beyond it).

What sort of lights must I, can I or should I have? Are they required
by the regulations to be of a specific IP rating or anything, or
designated as bathroom lights, or what? Is there any more specific
requirement for any lights which are actually above the bath?
Six downlighters is probably what we'll go for, the ones at my
mother-in-laws house are very satisfactory in the bathroom.

The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

As a minor additional question what sorts of lights and switches can
one have above a washbasin, are only pull switches allowed for such
lights? (It'll be pretty close to the bath, it's not a big bathroom).

Take a look at:

http://amdea.org.uk/bath1.1.pdf

Roger.

BigWallop wrote:

Firstly Chris, any switch gear should either be a normal plate switch
outside the bathroom or a pull cord switch if it is to be used within the
room itself. Normal plate switches can arc over to damp hands, which is not
a very nice feeling.

That's already the situation of course.


The space above the lights will need to allow good ventilation though, as
these little lights can give off a good bit of heat if they're on for long
periods, and I normally tell folks to leave a good 75mm above them to a
solid ceiling for this very reason.

A 35 watt light will always give off 35 watts of heat won't it?
Presumably if one gets the 'forward reflecting IR' variety more of the
heat gets radiated down into the bathroom rather than left in the
void. Does anyone know if this really makes a lot of difference

--
Chris Green )

In article , BigWallop
writes

wrote in message
...

What sort of lights must I, can I or should I have? Are they required
by the regulations to be of a specific IP rating or anything, or
designated as bathroom lights, or what? Is there any more specific
requirement for any lights which are actually above the bath?
Six downlighters is probably what we'll go for, the ones at my
mother-in-laws house are very satisfactory in the bathroom.


The lights should marked as being able to use in a bathroom and are normally
sealed dichroic low voltage systems. I think B&Q are doing them very cheap
at the moment, or so I am told, with a gang of three arrangement.

We have some of the B&Q ones, 3 lamps on one transformer. If one lamp of
the 3 blows, you must change it immediately, otherwise the other 2 lamps
will also blow within a few minutes. Presumably there is no regulation
on the transformer.

They give a nice light quality in the bathroom, if you like that sort of
thing, I know some people who hate downlighters.
--
Tim Mitchell

Christian McArdle wrote:
The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

The exact height of the ceiling is very important in determining the answer.
Can you measure it? It will reflect on which zone the ceiling is, in various
locations. The zone determines the IP rating required.

If we can assume that the ceiling is between 2.25m and 3m from the floor,
then it will be Zone 2 above the bath/shower, Zone 3 within 60cm of the
shower/bath and unzoned more than 60cm from the shower/bath. This means you
need IPX4 (where X is any number) fittings right above the shower/bath.
However, outside this area, any fitting can be used, provided you don't
intend to use a hose to clean your bathroom. If you do intend to use a hose,
you must use IPX5. IPX4 means splash resistant. IPX5 means resistant to
water jets.

Ah, thanks, that was the detail I wanted, I thought there was
something related to height involved in the type of fitting allowed.
I'm sure the (false) ceiling will be more than 2.25 metres
above the floor, it *might* be more than 3 metres, I'll check.
Anyway if I go for IPx4 fittings they'll be OK regardless (not aiming
to use a hose in the bathroom!). Thanks.


As a minor additional question what sorts of lights and switches can
one have above a washbasin, are only pull switches allowed for such
lights? (It'll be pretty close to the bath, it's not a big bathroom).

If it is more than 60cm from the bath and shower, there is no blanket
requirement to use pull cord switches or use special light fittings.
However, there is a general requirement to use switches and luminaires
suitable for their location. Having a live switch right above a basin might
not be considered a good idea. I've heard 30cm being considered a rule of
thumb to determine how far from a sink an accessory should be installed.

It *might* be within 60cm of the bath, the washbasin is close to the
non tap end of the bath. I'll check on that as well. Does that 60cm
mean the switch needs to be more than 60cm from any part of the bath
or what exactly?

--
Chris Green )

Roger Wareham wrote:
Take a look at:

http://amdea.org.uk/bath1.1.pdf

Very useful, thanks.

--
Chris Green )

Anyway if I go for IPx4 fittings they'll be OK regardless (not aiming
to use a hose in the bathroom!). Thanks.

Also, they must also be suitable for location. If the manufacturer of the
fitting states "not for use in bathrooms", then it mustn't be fitted, even
outside the zones, as the manufacturer has asserted that they are not
suitable.

It *might* be within 60cm of the bath, the washbasin is close to the
non tap end of the bath. I'll check on that as well. Does that 60cm
mean the switch needs to be more than 60cm from any part of the bath
or what exactly?

Measured from any part of the bath or shower, horizontally. Taps are
irrelevent. It is about keeping stuff away from the reach of someone using
the bath or shower. However, I'm still not entirely sure I'm right. There
seems to be disagreement about whether standard switches can be installed in
Zone 3. I haven't got the regs in front of me to check the definitive
answer.

Christian.

In article ,
writes:
A 35 watt light will always give off 35 watts of heat won't it?
Presumably if one gets the 'forward reflecting IR' variety more of the
heat gets radiated down into the bathroom rather than left in the
void. Does anyone know if this really makes a lot of difference

Yes it does, but you'll be lucky if you can still find fully
aluminised MR16's -- it's become almost impossible to buy
anything other than dichroics nowadays.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Christian McArdle wrote:
Anyway if I go for IPx4 fittings they'll be OK regardless (not aiming
to use a hose in the bathroom!). Thanks.

Also, they must also be suitable for location. If the manufacturer of the
fitting states "not for use in bathrooms", then it mustn't be fitted, even
outside the zones, as the manufacturer has asserted that they are not
suitable.

OK, thanks.


It *might* be within 60cm of the bath, the washbasin is close to the
non tap end of the bath. I'll check on that as well. Does that 60cm
mean the switch needs to be more than 60cm from any part of the bath
or what exactly?

Measured from any part of the bath or shower, horizontally. Taps are
irrelevent. It is about keeping stuff away from the reach of someone using
the bath or shower. However, I'm still not entirely sure I'm right. There
seems to be disagreement about whether standard switches can be installed in
Zone 3. I haven't got the regs in front of me to check the definitive
answer.

The PDF document that someone else pointed to from this thread is
quite useful. The washbasin will certainly be within 60 cms of the
bath horizontally but it could well be arranged that the switch for
the light is further away than that. We're not quite sure what sort
of light to have above the washbasin yet so details of that bit are
still somewhat vague.

--
Chris Green )

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:39:30 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

The exact height of the ceiling is very important in determining the answer.
Can you measure it? It will reflect on which zone the ceiling is, in various
locations. The zone determines the IP rating required.

If we can assume that the ceiling is between 2.25m and 3m from the floor,
then it will be Zone 2 above the bath/shower, Zone 3 within 60cm of the
shower/bath and unzoned more than 60cm from the shower/bath. This means you
need IPX4 (where X is any number) fittings right above the shower/bath.
However, outside this area, any fitting can be used, provided you don't
intend to use a hose to clean your bathroom. If you do intend to use a hose,
you must use IPX5. IPX4 means splash resistant. IPX5 means resistant to
water jets.

Interesting! When I put the lighting in our bathroom the only
questions I asked here were about number of lights and what might
overload the circuit - I figured the ceiling was high enough to make
it unzoned.

I ended up with a 50W shower downlighter over the shower, 2
bathroom-suitable pearl glass globes on either side of the shower and
2 bog-standard 20W low voltage downlighters over the bath and sink,
reasoning that the ceiling is at least 6 feet away from both and as
such you'd have to be going some to get water up that high. The
telephone type shower attachment on the bath taps is at the opposite
end of the bath to where the downlighter is, if you see what I mean. I
don't think it's powerful enough to get that high up the wall!

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs

"Witchy" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:39:30 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The ceiling is quite high (thus the false T&G ceiling presents no
problem), it's distinctly more than the normal modern house ceiling
height.

The exact height of the ceiling is very important in determining the
answer.
Can you measure it? It will reflect on which zone the ceiling is, in
various
locations. The zone determines the IP rating required.

If we can assume that the ceiling is between 2.25m and 3m from the floor,
then it will be Zone 2 above the bath/shower, Zone 3 within 60cm of the
shower/bath and unzoned more than 60cm from the shower/bath. This means
you
need IPX4 (where X is any number) fittings right above the shower/bath.
However, outside this area, any fitting can be used, provided you don't
intend to use a hose to clean your bathroom. If you do intend to use a
hose,
you must use IPX5. IPX4 means splash resistant. IPX5 means resistant to
water jets.

Interesting! When I put the lighting in our bathroom the only
questions I asked here were about number of lights and what might
overload the circuit - I figured the ceiling was high enough to make
it unzoned.

I ended up with a 50W shower downlighter over the shower, 2
bathroom-suitable pearl glass globes on either side of the shower and
2 bog-standard 20W low voltage downlighters over the bath and sink,
reasoning that the ceiling is at least 6 feet away from both and as
such you'd have to be going some to get water up that high. The
telephone type shower attachment on the bath taps is at the opposite
end of the bath to where the downlighter is, if you see what I mean. I
don't think it's powerful enough to get that high up the wall!

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs


Have you ever tried splashing up that high when you're drunk ? I don't mean
with shower. :-))


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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:17:47 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs


Have you ever tried splashing up that high when you're drunk ? I don't mean
with shower. :-))

Hehehe! Given where the bog is in relation to the downlighter there
would have to be some superhuman feats involved here.....

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs

Witchy wrote in message . ..

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

If you do, you're throwing heated air out, like pointing a small fan
heater outside. A crossflow exchanger would mean you retain the
majority of the heat while still changing the wet air for dry.

Regards, NT

On 14 Oct 2003 15:08:29 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

Witchy wrote in message . ..

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

If you do, you're throwing heated air out, like pointing a small fan
heater outside. A crossflow exchanger would mean you retain the
majority of the heat while still changing the wet air for dry.

I didn't know such a beast existed....ta! I'll have a google around.

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs

Witchy wrote in message . ..
On 14 Oct 2003 15:08:29 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

My only concern is that because we've built an open shower steam can
sometimes get that high and I might have to fit some sort of fan to
the outside wall. Something to be worried about?

If you do, you're throwing heated air out, like pointing a small fan
heater outside. A crossflow exchanger would mean you retain the
majority of the heat while still changing the wet air for dry.

I didn't know such a beast existed....ta! I'll have a google around.

cheers

witchy/binarydinosaurs

Hi. Finally remembered the name of them, Heat Recovery Ventilation, HRV.

Regards, NT