Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?

Thanks.

mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

Hi,

I'm not a structural engineer...

Do you have any known history on who did the replacement and when?

Presumably the original picture window supported the wall with regular
uprights? What type of window or door is there now? (uPVC windows *can* be
built with internal structural supports, but if the installer didn't
bother...)

I doubt 3.5" angle iron (but what thickness???) is going to snap, *but* 12
foot is a long span and 12x8 foot of brickwork is very heavy. Instinctively
it doesn't feel right by a large margin (I've seen it done when the iron
was in the form of an arch, but not straight). The fact you are seeing a
bow in it confirms it's not good IMO.

Irrespective of whether it's likely to break, it would be wise IMHO to get a
couple of Acrow props under it pronto, to keep it stable in the meantime
(they're cheap enough to hire).


I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

What's supporting the inner leaf? Where does the roof load go (often inner
leaf, but do you know for sure?)

Personally, over that distance, I'd consider a steel box lintel of some
sort.

You might find this interesting reading:

http://www.catnic.com/libraries/document/150.pdf



Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?

Thanks.

I think you need to rectify this, and get the BCO involved - but watch this
space for more comments.

Cheers

Tim

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:29:55 +0000, Tim S wrote:
I doubt 3.5" angle iron (but what thickness???) is going to snap, *but* 12
foot is a long span and 12x8 foot of brickwork is very heavy. Instinctively
it doesn't feel right by a large margin (I've seen it done when the iron
was in the form of an arch, but not straight). The fact you are seeing a
bow in it confirms it's not good IMO.

That's my gut feeling, too - that's a heck of a lot of weight over quite
a long span, irrespective of the metal thickness. I can't offer any exact
calculations, but I certainly wouldn't want to put my head under that lot :-)

In message , Tim S
writes

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

What's supporting the inner leaf? Where does the roof load go (often inner
leaf, but do you know for sure?)

Personally, over that distance, I'd consider a steel box lintel of some
sort.

You might find this interesting reading:

http://www.catnic.com/libraries/document/150.pdf



Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?

Thanks.

I think you need to rectify this, and get the BCO involved - but watch this
space for more comments.

I'm even less of a structural engineer but....

When I was whinging to an architect about building a wall over a
concrete floor with uncertain foundations, he suggested using 3 courses
including expanded metal to form a beam. (blockwork).

Is it possible that the clearly inadequate angle iron is only intended
to support the first course?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On 12 Feb, 13:29, Tim S wrote:
I doubt 3.5" angle iron (but what thickness???) is going to snap, *but* 12
foot is a long span and 12x8 foot of brickwork is very heavy. Instinctively
it doesn't feel right by a large margin (I've seen it done when the iron
was in the form of an arch, but not straight). The fact you are seeing a
bow in it confirms it's not good IMO.

Sorry, can't comment on the angle iron but it is supporting quite a
lot less than you think. 12'x8' of brickwork is (by my calculations)
512 bricks. Remember that this 'lintel' is only supporting a triangle
above it. You could remove it and everything except that triangle
would remain happily in place.

A 12' span is 16 bricks. So assuming stretcher bond the total weight
is 16 bricks above the lintel plus 15 bricks on the row above plus 14
on the row above that etc. In total 16+15+14+...+2+1 if you get my
drift. I make that 136 bricks in total. Anything more than 4' above
the lintel is not supported by it. Still quite a weight but nowhere
near the 512 you were talking about.

HTH etc.

Andrew

In article
,
mike wrote:
Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?

Angle iron IMHO is pretty useless for this sort of thing - to make it
rigid enough would require far more material - ie iron - than a better
shape. Traditionally this would be an H section as in an RSJ. Or a box
section if fabricated. Or, of course a pre-stressed concrete lintel.

I guess what the BCO will say - get in a structural engineer to do the
proper calcs.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

mike has brought this to us :
Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?


That is a very wide, almost unsupported gap. When angle is used for a
such a wide gap it can tend to twist sideways as it bows, so I would be
very concerned about its potential for collapse, especially with all of
that considerable weight upon it. For your families safety I would
suggest putting one, better two Acro's in urgently until a proper
structural survey has been done.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Thanks for all the replies.

The problem relates to the ongoing saga of my mother's woes with
Anglian Windows which I've posted about here before.

They removed a window, didn't prop it, didn't install a lintel, and a
triangle of bricks came away. The BCO came out and said a strong wind
or hard frost could bring the lot down.

Their "best brickie" came out and rebuilt it after installing the
angle iron - and you've never seen such a f***ing mess. Like some
rustic brickwork in Santa's grotto - not a straight line anywhere. A
neighbour described the wall as having a belly on it.

He came out and did it again. By this time the bricks were getting
pretty damaged from being taken apart and cleaned up twice. He'd only
brought a few new bricks (which weren't an exact match), didn't want
to go and buy any more and was considering going round the
neighbourhood in the hopes that someone might have some in their
garden that he could nick. In the end he botched it with the damaged
bricks. Then Anglian (after much ear-ache from me) paid for a company
called Construction Cosmetics to come out and paint the new bricks to
look weathered and blend in with the old. CC said that the bricks
were sufficiently damaged that it was hard to tell where brick ends
and mortar begins, but give it a few weeks to weather and see what it
looks like.

Actually their paintwork looks pretty good but it hasn't concealed the
fact the brickwork is still sh1t.

And the lintel looks like it's deflecting.

I've juts phoned my local BCO and he said that 12 feet is "hellishly
wide" and that he can say without seeing it that it won't be
adequate. He also said that it should have been done with a prior
building notice and that re-doing it should be done after submitting a
building notice.

As far as what should go in there, Dave Plowman was bang on: BCO said
get in a structural engineer to do the proper calcs.

Tim, thanks for that link to Catnic. On page 41 they do have the sort
of U-shaped lintels I was thinking of -- although on the same page
they also have something that looks like angle iron, presumably a
beefed up version though. I might give their tech help a call
tomorrow.

On Feb 12, 12:18*pm, mike wrote:
Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate *to support *8 foot of brick wall above?


I've just had 10' span done supporting an 8 foot high 8" brick wall
above. The engineer speciified two C section beams bolted together
(this lets you insert one at a time and do the job without props).

Each beam about 150mm x 90mm but I cannot remember the steel thickness
- my guess is about 8mm. the overlap (bearing) onto the surrounding
brick is 150mm.


Robert

"mike" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?

Unless it's an inch thick or more angle iron is pretty much useless for an
unsupported span as long as that. You need a box section, H section or other
solid geometric shape that resists downward pressure without distorting
sideways. The problem is not just the vertical load but the resistance to
twist and sideways deflection which will shear the mortar joints between the
bricks and then let their unsupported weight rest on the lintel and the
window.

You need a surveyor to do the appropriate calcs, design a proper solution
and then have it implemented at the expense of whoever cocked it up in the
first place.
--
Dave Baker

mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

Thanks for all the replies.

The problem relates to the ongoing saga of my mother's woes with
Anglian Windows which I've posted about here before.

Yes - I do remember now.

Anglian - another "tosser point" to them.

They removed a window, didn't prop it, didn't install a lintel, and a
triangle of bricks came away. The BCO came out and said a strong wind
or hard frost could bring the lot down.

snip

I've juts phoned my local BCO and he said that 12 feet is "hellishly
wide" and that he can say without seeing it that it won't be
adequate. He also said that it should have been done with a prior
building notice and that re-doing it should be done after submitting a
building notice.

Right - why not asked him if the LABC are prepared to prosecute or serve
enforcement against Anglian and/or their contractor. This is after all, the
whole point of Building Regs. How long ago was this done (original install
and the angle iron bodge)?

Maybe Hugo or one of the other (ex) BCO's here might be prepared to comment
on whether this is something LABC's would get involved with?

As far as what should go in there, Dave Plowman was bang on: BCO said
get in a structural engineer to do the proper calcs.

Tim, thanks for that link to Catnic. On page 41 they do have the sort
of U-shaped lintels I was thinking of -- although on the same page
they also have something that looks like angle iron, presumably a
beefed up version though. I might give their tech help a call
tomorrow.

mike wrote:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

Someone is taking the ****.
Angle iron would'nt be strong enough to go over a double door, never
mind a 12 foot gap.

Take them to Court, as well as reporting them to the local Building
Control Officer.
Alan.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

mike wrote:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

A 12 foot wide picture window was replaced in a cavity gable wall,
with the result that the outer skin of the wall started to collapse.
There's a lintel on the inner wall but the outer wall was just built
off the original frame.

The collapsed part of the wall was taken down, the angle iron
installed (I didn't see it installed but I'm calculating it's 3.5
inches as it's not the full width of the brick but the outer edge is
visible), and the brickwork rebuilt.

It wasn't inspected by BCO.

To me it looks like there's a noticeable bow in the middle.

I can see why angle iron would be used so as not to disturb the inner
skin, but it seems quite a long span, and that some sort of U-shaped
construction on its side that would allow two or three courses of
bricks to be built within the U would be required. How is the weight
of the roof factored in?

Is there a table or calculator online that deals with this? And
should it be BCO inspected?


If there is noticeable deflection, you have a serious problem. Beams
are designed to limit deflections so (1) they do not cause problems in
the structure(s) above and (2) they are not noticeable.

You need to employ a qualified structural engineer or technician to
inspect the lintel and do some calculations. It is a simple,
straightforward task and should not cost a lot of money.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Angle iron IMHO is pretty useless for this sort of thing - to make it
rigid enough would require far more material - ie iron - than a better
shape. Traditionally this would be an H section as in an RSJ. Or a box
section if fabricated. Or, of course a pre-stressed concrete lintel.


What you and the OP describe as "angle iron" is very likely to be rolled
steel angle. If properly designed, and especially when used in pairs,
rolled steel angles can be structurally very effective.


I guess what the BCO will say - get in a structural engineer to do the
proper calcs.


The BCO would be right. Nothing less than consulting a professional
will do here.

(A.Lee) wrote:

mike wrote:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

Someone is taking the ****.
Angle iron would'nt be strong enough to go over a double door, never
mind a 12 foot gap.


Rolled steel angles go up to 200 x 200mm by 20mm. A pair of those will
be more than enough to span 3.6m (12 feet) and hold up a wall and joists
above. In fact they would support several storeys.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
Angle iron IMHO is pretty useless for this sort of thing - to make it
rigid enough would require far more material - ie iron - than a better
shape. Traditionally this would be an H section as in an RSJ. Or a box
section if fabricated. Or, of course a pre-stressed concrete lintel.


What you and the OP describe as "angle iron" is very likely to be rolled
steel angle.

Not having seen it I simply called it what the OP did.

If properly designed, and especially when used in pairs,
rolled steel angles can be structurally very effective.

If used in pairs and presumably bonded together it's effectively a C
section.


I guess what the BCO will say - get in a structural engineer to do the
proper calcs.


The BCO would be right. Nothing less than consulting a professional
will do here.

What's even more worrying is that an experienced builder will have seen
how these things are normally done - and can often guess at sizes, near
enough. Not that I'm recommending that.

--
*No hand signals. Driver on Viagra*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember mike saying
something like:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

Offhand, I would say absolutely not.

On Feb 12, 9:17*pm, Bruce wrote:

Rolled steel angles go up to 200 x 200mm by 20mm. *A pair of those will
be more than enough to span 3.6m (12 feet) and hold up a wall and joists
above. *In fact they would support several storeys.

Well, this is more like 5mm. Does that make it angel iron rather than
rolled steel angle?

mike wrote:
On Feb 12, 9:17 pm, Bruce wrote:

Rolled steel angles go up to 200 x 200mm by 20mm. A pair of those will
be more than enough to span 3.6m (12 feet) and hold up a wall and joists
above. In fact they would support several storeys.

Well, this is more like 5mm. Does that make it angel iron rather than
rolled steel angle?

Well angel iron might manage to hold up the 12 foot gap very well... :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

rmike wrote:

On Feb 12, 9:17*pm, Bruce wrote:

Rolled steel angles go up to 200 x 200mm by 20mm. *A pair of those will
be more than enough to span 3.6m (12 feet) and hold up a wall and joists
above. *In fact they would support several storeys.

Well, this is more like 5mm. Does that make it angel iron rather than
rolled steel angle?


"Angle iron" is a nickname.

It's probably still a rolled steel angle (the correct term), just a
small one. I've seen them as small as 25 x 25 x 3. Smaller ones are
bent from steel sheet, but I don't know what the proper name for those
is. Possibly angle iron? ;-)

As for "angel iron", I think you'd be on a wing and a prayer. ;-)

Just a thought.

The OP talks about a lintel across the inner skin. Does this cross the
cavity? I had something similar across a set of French Windows. The
inner skin of the cavity had a concrete lintel which was probably cast
in place. This was wide enough to cross the cavity and the height of
the soldier course. The soldier course was then built directly on top
of the steel Crittal windows. All fine until DG company removed the
window and the soldier course (but fortunately not the brickwork above
started to sag. Under these circumstances I wonder whether a piece of
angle iron that was screwed to the inner lintel at regular intervals
would provide sufficient support.

Andrew

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember mike saying
something like:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

Offhand, I would say absolutely not.


The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

On Feb 13, 10:35 am, Rod wrote:

Well angel iron might manage to hold up the 12 foot gap very well... :-)

On Feb 13, 12:38*pm, Bruce wrote:

As for "angel iron", I think you'd be on a wing and a prayer. *;-)

It was a simple typo. Enough of the awful puns, already.

Still, at least now I understand that Harris poll that revealed 68% of
Americans believe in angles.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

I'd say beating them over the head with the angle iron would do nicely.

--
*What hair colour do they put on the driver's license of a bald man? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

mike wrote:
On Feb 13, 10:35 am, Rod wrote:

Well angel iron might manage to hold up the 12 foot gap very well... :-)

On Feb 13, 12:38 pm, Bruce wrote:

As for "angel iron", I think you'd be on a wing and a prayer. ;-)

It was a simple typo. Enough of the awful puns, already.

Still, at least now I understand that Harris poll that revealed 68% of
Americans believe in angles.

Wot about the saxons?

(True - it was obviously a simple typo, the like of which I have many
times made, but 'twas so very amusing to my silly sense of humour.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

I'd say beating them over the head with the angle iron would do nicely.


Good idea.

Just don't use the one that is (almost) holding up the wall. ;-)

On Feb 12, 5:48*pm, Tim S wrote:

Right - why not asked him if the LABC are prepared to prosecute or serve
enforcement against Anglian and/or their contractor. This is after all, the
whole point of Building Regs. How long ago was this done (original install
and the angle iron bodge)?

Right, just phoned the BCO local to my mother (yesterday I spoke to my
local one for info only). Anyway, he says the same thing. Completely
inadequate, they shouldn't have done it and they should have submitted
a building notice first. Very friendly and co-operative about it and
he even remembered his previous visit from months ago ("Oh, yes, the
one where the wall was falling down") which gives you some idea of how
bad it was. He's meeting me there on Monday to look at it to see what
needs doing to make safe, he said he'll right a letter in support of
us but he also mentioned that ultimately it's the householder who
carries the can for non-compliance.

Will keep you posted.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce saying
something like:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?

Offhand, I would say absolutely not.


The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.
Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
Bruce wrote:

The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.
Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.


It isn't just a question of finding a piece of software to punch numbers
into. Three years at University and a similar amount of structured
training, followed by a uniquely demanding examination which has to be
passed to obtain professional qualification, teaches rather more
understanding than that.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce saying
something like:

For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.
Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.


It isn't just a question of finding a piece of software to punch numbers
into. Three years at University and a similar amount of structured
training, followed by a uniquely demanding examination which has to be
passed to obtain professional qualification, teaches rather more
understanding than that.

For a twelve foot window? Nah - if it's big enough, it's strong enough.
It's hardly the Forth Bridge, fgs.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce saying
something like:

For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.
Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.


It isn't just a question of finding a piece of software to punch numbers
into. Three years at University and a similar amount of structured
training, followed by a uniquely demanding examination which has to be
passed to obtain professional qualification, teaches rather more
understanding than that.

For a twelve foot window? Nah - if it's big enough, it's strong enough.
It's hardly the Forth Bridge, fgs.


You can have the last word.

On Feb 13, 1:46*pm, Rod wrote:

(True - it was obviously a simple typo, the like of which I have many
times made, but 'twas so very amusing to my silly sense of humour.)

No offence taken, I've been round uk-diy long enough to have seen many
of these spontaneous outbreaks of Gylesbrandrethitis.

Also, I just turned up the page about 68% of Americans believing in
angels. It also says that 41% don't believe in UFOs... which I think
proves that 99% of pollsters don't know how to word a question
sensibly.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?PID=618

Rod wrote:
mike wrote:
On Feb 12, 9:17 pm, Bruce wrote:

Rolled steel angles go up to 200 x 200mm by 20mm. A pair of those will
be more than enough to span 3.6m (12 feet) and hold up a wall and joists
above. In fact they would support several storeys.

Well, this is more like 5mm. Does that make it angel iron rather than
rolled steel angle?

Well angel iron might manage to hold up the 12 foot gap very well... :-)

Its devil iron,and will cast you into the Pit.

mike wrote:
On Feb 13, 10:35 am, Rod wrote:

Well angel iron might manage to hold up the 12 foot gap very well... :-)

On Feb 13, 12:38 pm, Bruce wrote:

As for "angel iron", I think you'd be on a wing and a prayer. ;-)

It was a simple typo. Enough of the awful puns, already.

Still, at least now I understand that Harris poll that revealed 68% of
Americans believe in angles.

Not surprised. Tons of the buggers round here.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce saying
something like:

Does anyone know if a 3.5 inch angle iron over a 12 foot span is
adequate to support 8 foot of brick wall above?
Offhand, I would say absolutely not.

The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.

I'd be looking at at least 9" deep I beam.


Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.

Bruce wrote:
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
Bruce wrote:
The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.
For sure. If I was doing any brickwork like that by the seat of my pants
in the middle of nowhere I'd have been looking at a length of I-beam or,
at a pinch, two L-sections opposing each other and straps welded across
between them underneath.
Ideally, I'd have looked up some prog to punch the numbers into, though.


It isn't just a question of finding a piece of software to punch numbers
into. Three years at University and a similar amount of structured
training, followed by a uniquely demanding examination which has to be
passed to obtain professional qualification, teaches rather more
understanding than that.

You would guesstimate load and look at allowable deflection and go from
there to a table.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember mike saying
something like:

RIP Hunter S. Thompson

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The important thing here is to get a professional opinion from a
qualified structural engineer - something to beat Anglian over the head
with. Nothing less than that will do any good.

I'd say beating them over the head with the angle iron would do nicely.


Nobody has mentioned the similarity in sound of "Anglian" and "angle
iron". A coincidence? I don't think so ...

replying to mike, Nikki wrote:
I have the same issue I have a 12foot window (original when built) bricks are
supported currently but what looks like some bent iron and the fact the
windows have metal frames. Safe style will not upgrade with French doors and
side panels until I sort a proper lintel. From what I have read this is above
standard and not that simple. 4 builders have looked at and ran off scared due
to the size! I am at the end of my teather I don't know what to do! I don't
have a lot of spare cash and everyone that looks at confuses me as I don't
believe any of them really know what to do. The cavity is not really a cavity
inside the house is supported by a concrete lintel the brick work on the out
side is up against this no really cavity. This means I need a 12 foot +
something that can only be the thickness of a brick and needs to support all
of the external bricks in order for me to replace the single glazed rubbish
for new pvc. I just don't know what to do I need a cost effective as possible
but with out cutting corners. And pref someone who knows what they are talking
about. Some say the window can stay in others say they will need to come out
to do!!!!!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...el-542071-.htm

On 30/08/2017 13:14, Nikki wrote:
replying to mike, Nikki wrote:
I have the same issue.

What issue?

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