Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher installations ?
Need someone that understands the plumbing / electrical requirements to
answer a couple of questions.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher
installations ? Need someone that understands the plumbing /
electrical requirements to answer a couple of questions.

Arfa

Some of them are 3 phase / 330V and therefore are not DIY able

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:21:15 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher installations ?
Need someone that understands the plumbing / electrical requirements to
answer a couple of questions.

Arfa

They are esssentially no different to install that domestic units except
for then following:

1) They have a warm-up time which can be lengthy if not fed from mains
hot and connected to a substantial electric supply.
2) They tend to use every little bit of the 600x600x860 cube of space
allocated to them. So service pipes and wires need careful planning.
3) They cost 10x as much.
4) Once prepared they take a smaller amount of load than a domestic unit
but they do it all in 5 mins, again and again.

With a cold feed and a 13A single phase supply they can take an hour to
prepare themselves.
With a hot feed and a 25A single phase supply they can take about 10
minutes.

Doubtless there are 3 phase supply models but I doubt they are a much
bigger load than the 25A 1ph unit.

HTH

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Ed Sirett wrote:
Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher installations ?
They are esssentially no different to install that domestic units except
for then following:

Agreed. And

(5) They often need external water softening within controlled/agreed
limits or the manufacturer's warranty may be voided.

Owain



Hmmph, waranty, waranty.

At work, we recently had coffee vending machines installed.
These have outboard water filters ( supplied ).

At the point of installation, we had a cold supply with a standard 3/4 BSP
'washing machine' tap.
This was used to fill the old ( preferable ) tea urn, via a standard
'washing machine' hose: 3/4 BSP at either end.

The jobsworth who arrived to install the machines pronounced that he
couldn't install them. They required a bare 15mm pipe stub, onto which
they would fit their own hose. The other end of the hose ( onto the filter
and vending machine ) was a standard 3/4 BSP fitting.

Says me: Why couldn't they just use the existing hose ( 3/4 BSP either
side ) from the previous boiler?

Oh, no.
Using 'another' hose would 'invalidate the warranty'.

What utter ********.
Of course it wouldn't, unless in some way it materially affected the
installation, which it clearly wouldn't.

I had to modify the plumbing arangements to suit the jobsworth.
He had to come back a week later.

Utter ********.

--
R

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Ed Sirett wrote:
Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher installations ?
They are esssentially no different to install that domestic units except
for then following:

Agreed. And

(5) They often need external water softening within controlled/agreed
limits or the manufacturer's warranty may be voided.

6: The last one I used needed an external detergent dispenser too.
Liquid detergent and softener were feed in via a pair of pumps and a
controller in the cupboard next to the washer.

wrote:

I have come across a type that were a different style entirely.
Crockery was stacked in trays designed to fit the washer and depending
on the shape and size of the items there could be a couple or more
trays on top of each other. The bottom of the washer would be at
normal countertop height so no stooping to load. The casing then
lowers from above to surround the trays and wash commences.

I assumed that was the norm. Both kitchens I washed up in as a teenager
had them, and the ships I occasionally sail on have something very similar.

Pete

In article ,
writes:
I have come across a type that were a different style entirely.
Crockery was stacked in trays designed to fit the washer and depending
on the shape and size of the items there could be a couple or more
trays on top of each other. The bottom of the washer would be at
normal countertop height so no stooping to load. The casing then
lowers from above to surround the trays and wash commences.
The operation was stacks of trays on one side, a stack was slid into
place on the washer ,casing lowered wash cycle done tray of clean
crocks slid out other side to dry then store.
very fast cycles but using very hot water from an external source.

The one in my university hall was a bit like that, and we used
to use it when we ran discos to keep washing up the glasses.
It was a continuous process though, with a line of trays being
drawn through on a slow moving belt.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
writes:
I have come across a type that were a different style entirely.
Crockery was stacked in trays designed to fit the washer and depending
on the shape and size of the items there could be a couple or more
trays on top of each other. The bottom of the washer would be at
normal countertop height so no stooping to load. The casing then
lowers from above to surround the trays and wash commences.
The operation was stacks of trays on one side, a stack was slid into
place on the washer ,casing lowered wash cycle done tray of clean
crocks slid out other side to dry then store.
very fast cycles but using very hot water from an external source.

The one in my university hall was a bit like that, and we used
to use it when we ran discos to keep washing up the glasses.
It was a continuous process though, with a line of trays being
drawn through on a slow moving belt.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Crikey !! Lots of info there then, and thanks for all the comments -
especially Ed with the 5 points. OK then. A bit more background. My wife and
daughter have a busy cafe which for the last 4 years, they have run using a
human dishwasher - daughter's husband at the moment. They have just bought
another cafe, so he is off to run that one for them, so it seemed like a
good time to think about a dishwashing machine. Trouble is that the building
is old, and we are restricted to a single phase input, and cold only water
feed. At a pinch, we can accommodate a separate 13A feed to the prep room
where the washing up is done now.

We had a guy out to look it all over, but he wanted to completely redesign
the whole area at a TTP price.

I have done a bit of research on these beasts, and it seems that single
phase 240v 2.8kW for a 13A feed is quite normal, or a configurable option if
the machine is fundamentally 415v 3 phase. I have been looking at a Maidaid
D510 (a 600 x 600 x 800 'under counter' unit) which is being offered second
hand at a good price. It is configurable for three power levels, 2.8kW being
the lowest. It claims cycle times of 60, 120 and 180 seconds, so first
question is, do these three times reference the three input power levels? So
if I feed it with the 2.8kW 13A configuration, am I going to get a 3 minute
cycle time ? Next question is what is all this about warm up and preparation
times ? I thought that these things hotted up the water pretty much on the
fly, or am I wrong there ? Do they have a hot water storage tank in them ?
It wouldn't be a problem if it took an hour to warm up in the first place.

I'm ok with the water softener unit. The machine I have been looking at has
one with it.

Finally, what are the requirements for the exhaust water ? Do they just
discharge into an open-vented standpipe like a domestic dishwasher or
washing machine, or do they have some other system ?

Lots more questions there then. Looking forward to some more good answers.
d;~}

TIA all

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news

I have done a bit of research on these beasts, and it seems that single
phase 240v 2.8kW for a 13A feed is quite normal, or a configurable option
if the machine is fundamentally 415v 3 phase. I have been looking at a
Maidaid D510 (a 600 x 600 x 800 'under counter' unit) which is being
offered second hand at a good price. It is configurable for three power
levels, 2.8kW being the lowest. It claims cycle times of 60, 120 and 180
seconds, so first question is, do these three times reference the three
input power levels?

No, they are how long the wash cycle lasts.

So if I feed it with the 2.8kW 13A configuration, am I going to get a 3
minute cycle time ? Next question is what is all this about warm up and
preparation times ? I thought that these things hotted up the water pretty
much on the fly, or am I wrong there ? Do they have a hot water storage
tank in them ? It wouldn't be a problem if it took an hour to warm up in
the first place.

They have a tank in the sump.
They pump hot water around to do the wash and then use a little fresh water
to do the rinse from another smaller tank.
They pump out a bit of the old water each time.

The less power you have the longer between washes as it only has the wash
time to preheat the rinse water if its busy.

I'm ok with the water softener unit. The machine I have been looking at
has one with it.

Detergent dispenser?


Finally, what are the requirements for the exhaust water ? Do they just
discharge into an open-vented standpipe like a domestic dishwasher or
washing machine, or do they have some other system ?

Stand pipe should be OK.
They don't empty much per cycle, but you need to empty and clean them at
least daily.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news

I have done a bit of research on these beasts, and it seems that single
phase 240v 2.8kW for a 13A feed is quite normal, or a configurable option
if the machine is fundamentally 415v 3 phase. I have been looking at a
Maidaid D510 (a 600 x 600 x 800 'under counter' unit) which is being
offered second hand at a good price. It is configurable for three power
levels, 2.8kW being the lowest. It claims cycle times of 60, 120 and 180
seconds, so first question is, do these three times reference the three
input power levels?

No, they are how long the wash cycle lasts.

So if I feed it with the 2.8kW 13A configuration, am I going to get a 3
minute cycle time ? Next question is what is all this about warm up and
preparation times ? I thought that these things hotted up the water
pretty much on the fly, or am I wrong there ? Do they have a hot water
storage tank in them ? It wouldn't be a problem if it took an hour to
warm up in the first place.

They have a tank in the sump.
They pump hot water around to do the wash and then use a little fresh
water to do the rinse from another smaller tank.
They pump out a bit of the old water each time.

The less power you have the longer between washes as it only has the wash
time to preheat the rinse water if its busy.

I'm ok with the water softener unit. The machine I have been looking at
has one with it.

Detergent dispenser?


Finally, what are the requirements for the exhaust water ? Do they just
discharge into an open-vented standpipe like a domestic dishwasher or
washing machine, or do they have some other system ?

Stand pipe should be OK.
They don't empty much per cycle, but you need to empty and clean them at
least daily.



You can tell that I'm new to this ! I don't know anything about detergent
dispensers ... I assumed (wrongly obviously!!) that as detergent was needed,
it would have a 'once a day' or something hopper for it if a powder, or
perhaps a little suction pipe to go into a gallon container if it was
liquid. Doh !

Understood on the sump tank for the hot water. So presumably, this holds
enough water for a couple of cycles, given that the demand is small ? From
what you say then, it seems that all three cycle times are still available,
irrespective of the input power that it is configured for. So 1, 2 and 3
minute for light, medium and heavy soiling ? Do these three cycle times use
corresponding amounts of water from the pre-heated tankful, meaning that if
you are able to run one minute cycle times, you would be able to run almost
continuously ?

I don't think that we would actually need to. It can get very busy during
the lunch service, but I would still think that you could get away with
running it perhaps once every 10 minutes, if you keep a good rotation of
'stock' plates and cups etc, going. Thanks for your input. All useful stuff.
Appreciated.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

You can tell that I'm new to this ! I don't know anything about detergent
dispensers ... I assumed (wrongly obviously!!) that as detergent was
needed, it would have a 'once a day' or something hopper for it if a
powder, or perhaps a little suction pipe to go into a gallon container if
it was liquid. Doh !

Some may have a dispenser but some don't.


Understood on the sump tank for the hot water. So presumably, this holds
enough water for a couple of cycles, given that the demand is small ? From
what you say then, it seems that all three cycle times are still
available, irrespective of the input power that it is configured for. So
1, 2 and 3 minute for light, medium and heavy soiling ? Do these three
cycle times use corresponding amounts of water from the pre-heated
tankful, meaning that if you are able to run one minute cycle times, you
would be able to run almost continuously ?

The cycles use the same amount of water on the machines I have seen.


I don't think that we would actually need to. It can get very busy during
the lunch service, but I would still think that you could get away with
running it perhaps once every 10 minutes, if you keep a good rotation of
'stock' plates and cups etc, going. Thanks for your input. All useful
stuff. Appreciated.

Arfa

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:37:08 +0000, Owain wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
Anyone on here know anything about commercial dishwasher installations
?
They are esssentially no different to install that domestic units
except for then following:

Agreed. And

(5) They often need external water softening within controlled/agreed
limits or the manufacturer's warranty may be voided.

Owain

Agreed, although, the Winterhalter units I have installed had integral
units.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 10:02:44 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news

I have done a bit of research on these beasts, and it seems that
single phase 240v 2.8kW for a 13A feed is quite normal, or a
configurable option if the machine is fundamentally 415v 3 phase. I
have been looking at a Maidaid D510 (a 600 x 600 x 800 'under counter'
unit) which is being offered second hand at a good price. It is
configurable for three power levels, 2.8kW being the lowest. It claims
cycle times of 60, 120 and 180 seconds, so first question is, do these
three times reference the three input power levels?

No, they are how long the wash cycle lasts.

So if I feed it with the 2.8kW 13A configuration, am I going to get a
3 minute cycle time ? Next question is what is all this about warm up
and preparation times ? I thought that these things hotted up the
water pretty much on the fly, or am I wrong there ? Do they have a hot
water storage tank in them ? It wouldn't be a problem if it took an
hour to warm up in the first place.

They have a tank in the sump.
They pump hot water around to do the wash and then use a little fresh
water to do the rinse from another smaller tank. They pump out a bit of
the old water each time.

The less power you have the longer between washes as it only has the
wash time to preheat the rinse water if its busy.

I'm ok with the water softener unit. The machine I have been looking
at has one with it.

Detergent dispenser?


Finally, what are the requirements for the exhaust water ? Do they
just discharge into an open-vented standpipe like a domestic
dishwasher or washing machine, or do they have some other system ?

Stand pipe should be OK.
They don't empty much per cycle, but you need to empty and clean them
at least daily.



You can tell that I'm new to this ! I don't know anything about
detergent dispensers ... I assumed (wrongly obviously!!) that as
detergent was needed, it would have a 'once a day' or something hopper
for it if a powder, or perhaps a little suction pipe to go into a gallon
container if it was liquid. Doh !

Understood on the sump tank for the hot water. So presumably, this holds
enough water for a couple of cycles, given that the demand is small ?
From what you say then, it seems that all three cycle times are still
available, irrespective of the input power that it is configured for. So
1, 2 and 3 minute for light, medium and heavy soiling ? Do these three
cycle times use corresponding amounts of water from the pre-heated
tankful, meaning that if you are able to run one minute cycle times, you
would be able to run almost continuously ?

I don't think that we would actually need to. It can get very busy
during the lunch service, but I would still think that you could get
away with running it perhaps once every 10 minutes, if you keep a good
rotation of 'stock' plates and cups etc, going. Thanks for your input.
All useful stuff. Appreciated.


On the machines I've installed and used even the 13A unit was able to
keep up the supply of wash cycles. This would have been with a usage of
say 10 cycles in about 30-40 minutes. Although you can load and empty the
trays away from the machine so the between cycle time is fairly small.
Nevertheless the trays are very hot and 30 seconds to 1 minute is
realistically needed to exchange trays. There are other types.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

wrote:
Pete Verdon wrote:
wrote:

I have come across a type that were a different style entirely.
Crockery was stacked in trays designed to fit the washer and depending
on the shape and size of the items there could be a couple or more
trays on top of each other. The bottom of the washer would be at
normal countertop height so no stooping to load. The casing then
lowers from above to surround the trays and wash commences.

I assumed that was the norm. Both kitchens I washed up in as a teenager
had them, and the ships I occasionally sail on have something very similar.

It was mainly on ships that I came across them. Sometimes called hood
dishwashers.
[...]
Cruise ships often have to conform to United States Port Health
requirements. The USPH inspection can leave grown men quaking as it
so vigorous. The hood type of washer is a lot easier to keep clean
than a cabinet type.

Ah, well, these aren't cruise ships but square-rigged sail training
vessels: http://is.gd/iotL . The dishwasher (actually, I believe it's
technically a sanitiser as it heats up but doesn't really wash -
everything gets washed by hand before it goes in) has multiple trays
that get passed through it but it's front-loading with a flip-down door
rather than a descending hood.

I think the choice of sanitiser rather than dishwasher is because it
uses less water - or possibly just to ensure that there's lots of
character-building washing-up to be done :-)

Pete

wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:04:28 +0000, Pete Verdon wrote:

Ah, well, these aren't cruise ships but square-rigged sail training
vessels: http://is.gd/iotL .

You've lost a mast since I went on one of them about 20 years ago.

Ah ha!

Yep, this is true, but we've gained quite a lot of climbing frame in
exchange :-) If I remember rightly you only used to have one square
topsail and a weird triangular topgallanty thing that I've never seen
anywhere else. We've got lots to do aloft now: http://is.gd/iqAA

I think the choice of sanitiser rather than dishwasher is because it
uses less water - or possibly just to ensure that there's lots of
character-building washing-up to be done :-)

ISTR the W Churchill just had two deep sinks and plenty of Hot water.

Stavros (and formerly William) has two deep sinks, plenty of hot water,
and the sanitiser (that leaks out the door when you're close-hauled
given enough wind - not designed for sailing ships :-) ). Maybe the
sanitiser is needed for those Port Regulations you mentioned? I hear
they went through a phase of showing everyone a H&S video on how to wash
up, but then stopped again because it was silly.

The pan bash: http://is.gd/iqzQ

Pete