Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?


It would just act like a giant trap surely? Can't see why it would't work.

Would need to ensure there was easy access as it would block easily
though.

Darren

dmc wrote:
It would just act like a giant trap surely? Can't see why it would't work.

A blocked trap full of 10 gallons of tea leaves and grease? *I* don't
want to empty it!

Andy

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?


It would work. Until the sump accumulates enough grot to block it.

In a normal U-type waste the entire content is flushed almost whenever
you use it (as it retains so little water). In the version you describe
there could be a lot of water which might well not flush through for
long periods. That is a recipe for blockage and truly revolting stagnant
waste.

Any possibility of fitting the units 50mm in front of the wall so that
there is a gap behind the oven? Or taking the waste out through the wall?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

The Medway Handyman wrote:

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the
waste pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up
the other side & reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge
'U' in the waste pipe.
I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always
be full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

That would work, it's just a giant trap. Any new incoming water raises the
level and displaces water 'over the edge' into the downstream pipework.
Like a WC bowl - they can cope with rushing water.

On the other hand, it would be highly vulnerable to blockages, any grit or
fibre which settled in that section would stay there, gradually gumming
together with hair, fat & fishbones. Ask the old boy to promise that he'll
dismantle it and flush it with caustic soda once a month, and it might be
viable.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:27:36 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Surely it wouldn't work?

I've used that sort of arrangement for condensate wastes but I'd expect
using it for dirty water would result in it blocking up with large amounts
of muck settling out in it.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Teenagers: tired of being harassed by your stupid parents?
Act now! Move out, get a job and pay your own bills,
while you still know everything!

Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

More sensibly, tell them the big u bend wouldn't comply with building
regs (I'm pretty sure it wouldn't comply with the rules on falls on
pipes).

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?


It sort of would. BUT the mass of water would take some acceleration to
get moving, and probably carry on, possibly sucking it dry.

I am not sure its to regulations either.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

Easy answer.

Fit MDF false wall and tile it.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:27:36 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee'
were present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years
old and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit
the newish ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along
the length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe -
due to various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The
oven goes right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to
the soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the
tea making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other
side & reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the
waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be
full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity
here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

As per all the other answers, it would work, as long as it's sealed. And
it would block easily in that situation too.

Here's somewhere else it was used, on a somewhat larger scale:

http://www.romanaqueducts.info/siphons/siphons.htm

The Medway Handyman wrote:

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

A U-bend is a U-bend. All you have here is a ginormous U-bend.

That is not to say that a ginormous U-bend is going to be in the slightest bit
desirable.

-- JJ

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be
full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity
here.

Surely it wouldn't work?


It sort of would. BUT the mass of water would take some acceleration to
get moving, and probably carry on, possibly sucking it dry.

I can just picture one of the old dears getting sucked down the plughole after
emptying the teapot. She would probably get stuck, so you'd need a waste
disposal unit to finish the job.

-- JJ

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

Can you not move the whole lot 40mm clear of the wall and fit something
along the work top to take up the space? Alternatively shunt the
oven/hob unit forward?

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:27:36 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:


One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

Others have come up with varying comments about the arrangement. I had a
problem in my last house with what turned out to be a long unsupported
length of waste under the floor boards in an upstairs kitchen. It drained
washing machine and dishwasher, and becaue it had been installed without
any clips for a length of about 6-8 ft. It had been installed with a fall,
but eventually sagged just an inch or two, and the dip finally clogged up
with crud, which manifested itself when the w/m pumped out through the d/w!
New floor, new ceiling downstairs, plumbing corrected......[1]

Yes, tell then it can be done, instal with a couple of access points for
cleaning out, but strictly at their risk, and on the understanding that
they will be responsible for cleaning out the pipes. If they want you to do
it, tell them it will be a very unpleasant job, and your charges will
reflect that.

[1] why is it thst every house I've ever moved into has always had ****
poor plumbing......


--
The Wanderer

Life is a catastrophic success.

wrote in message
...
Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

ROFL! (having just had to open mine up to wiggle the spade connectors on the
timer)

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the
newish ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along
the length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe -
due to various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven
goes right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to
the soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the
tea making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other
side & reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the
waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be
full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

It will work, but there is a fair risk of syphonage. I would keep the low
level section as short as possible and step up to 50mm pipe immediately
after the last elbow before the soil pipe. If possible, I would also fit a
running trap at the start of the lowest section, which ought to attract much
of the rubbish as well as making cleaning it out easier, and I would fit
access points at every elbow. There also ought to be a running trap in
the50mm pipe, just before the soil pipe, just in case the rest does manage
to syphon out.

Colin Bignell

Rod wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee'
were present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few
years old and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the
hall & fit the newish ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of
the wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units &
along the length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a
soil pipe - due to various other fittings it couldn't be fitted
lower down. The oven goes right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next
to the soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc
with the tea making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the
waste pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up
the other side & reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge
'U' in the waste pipe. I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge
'U' would always
be full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity
here. Surely it wouldn't work?


It would work. Until the sump accumulates enough grot to block it.

Hadn't got that far, but you are right, its asking for a blockage.


In a normal U-type waste the entire content is flushed almost whenever
you use it (as it retains so little water). In the version you
describe there could be a lot of water which might well not flush
through for long periods. That is a recipe for blockage and truly
revolting stagnant waste.

Yerbut, nobut, yerbut if you pulled out the plug on a sink full of water, it
would have the effect of compressing the air in the waste upstream of the U,
so less water would be pushed out of the other end?

Any possibility of fitting the units 50mm in front of the wall so that
there is a gap behind the oven? Or taking the waste out through the
wall?

Alas no, the kitchen is narrow anyway & there are several door frames on the
other side of the wall.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

wrote:
Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

What an un Christian idea :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

wrote:
More sensibly, tell them the big u bend wouldn't comply with building
regs (I'm pretty sure it wouldn't comply with the rules on falls on
pipes).

Aha! My Get out of Jail Card!

Cheers



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:27:36 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

A real 'U' bend has (or should have!) a smooth flow - one formed from
elbows would have severe restrictions and would definitely not work
correctly.
Even a bottle trap is designed to give some sort of a consistent flow.

Swept elbows might be a bit better, but avoid sharp 90 degree ones.

I've used elbows in a drain system, but only in a general 'downward'
direction

I'd advise that if you carry out the work as they 'suggest', get them
to sign a disclaimer regarding its subsequent performance.

--
Frank Erskine

In message , The Wanderer
writes
[1] why is it thst every house I've ever moved into has always had ****
poor plumbing......

Same with me, it couldn't be that there are loads of **** poor plumbers
out there could it?

--
Clint Sharp

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Rod wrote:

In a normal U-type waste the entire content is flushed almost whenever
you use it (as it retains so little water). In the version you
describe there could be a lot of water which might well not flush
through for long periods. That is a recipe for blockage and truly
revolting stagnant waste.

Yerbut, nobut, yerbut if you pulled out the plug on a sink full of water, it
would have the effect of compressing the air in the waste upstream of the U,
so less water would be pushed out of the other end?


Wasn't thinking about compression of air - but that is another thing to
think about!

In a normal trap even turning on the tap for s few seconds will cause
enough flow to replace all the water in the trap. So the foetid nasty
yuck gets taken towards the sewer. In the version you describe, a few
ounces of water entering the start of the super-trap will merely
displace the same amount from the far end. The majority of the water in
the trap will remain. The (relatively) fresh stuff will simply mix with
the yuck that is already there. Such yuck is very attractive to bacteria
which can form mats of blocking material.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Jan 19, 8:27*pm, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. *The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. *Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. *The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. *No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. *Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. *I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Could you run the pipe through the wall at the back, then back through
the wall at the other end?

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee'
were present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years
old and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit
the newish ones.

A plan was produced. Sink to remain where it was on the left end of
the wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units &
along the length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a
soil pipe - due to various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower
down. The oven goes right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next
to the soil pipe. No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc
with the tea making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. Put several elbows in the
waste pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up
the other side & reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge
'U' in the waste pipe.
I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always
be full of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. I'm start to doubt my own sanity
here.
Surely it wouldn't work?

How is the waste arranged at present?

Could they get an oven that's not quite so deep? Then run the waste in the
normal way.

Or mount the sink higher up and run the waste above the worktop. That'd be
nice. You'd need a small step or two up, maybe a bible stand, and could give
short cermons there too, or even baptisms.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:27:36 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. The 'committee' were
present.

Walk away or if you do it, move house and go ex-directory. Jobs such
as that will come back to bite you again and again.


--

It would work. Until the sump accumulates enough grot to block it.

Hadn't got that far, but you are right, its asking for a blockage.


especially as its in a church
where someone who doesnt know about the long pipe
at a fraught wedding catering do
will pour hot custard or soup down it
then leave it to set...

When it overflows where will the water go,
will it go down a drain
or into the main room destroying carpets etc?

[g]

On Jan 19, 9:11*pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Looked at a job for a local church on the way home. *The 'committee' were
present.

A parishioner has given them a load of kitchen units only a few years old
and they want me to rip out the tatty old units in the hall & fit the newish
ones.

A plan was produced. *Sink to remain where it was on the left end of the
wall, built in oven & hob on the right of it.

Obvious problem, the waste from the sink runs through the units & along the
length of the wall around 2' above the floor & enters a soil pipe - due to
various other fittings it couldn't be fitted lower down. *The oven goes
right to the back of the unit.

I explained this & suggested we move the sink to the other end, next to the
soil pipe. *No, they didn't want that, it would cause havoc with the tea
making.

One old boy came up with a 'solution'. *Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.

I tried to explain that it wouldn't work, the huge 'U' would always be full
of water & the sink wouldn't empty properly.

He was adamant that it would work. *I'm start to doubt my own sanity here.

Surely it wouldn't work?

It sort of would. BUT the mass of water would take some acceleration to
get moving, and probably carry on, possibly sucking it dry.

There's no siphon effect cos the exit into the soil pipe is higher
than the body of water.

MBQ

On 19 Jan, 20:27, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
....
One old boy came up with a 'solution'. *Put several elbows in the waste
pipe, to take it down to floor level, under the unit, back up the other side
& reconnect to the waste - effectively forming a huge 'U' in the waste pipe.
....
Surely it wouldn't work?

It would work up until the point when it didn't :-)

Others have already discussed the issues, I'd add that :-

a) Sods law applies and any failure would be at the worst possible
time
b) From your description, access to resolve the problem could well be
difficult

Ignore the suggestions that you do it but give a disclaimer - that's a
recipe for later arguments and loss of goodwill. If you implement it,
you will be asked to fix it when it breaks.

My recommendation is that you suggest one or more workable solutions -
others have suggested a few - and if the church won't accept one of
them, politely decline the job.

newshound wrote:
wrote

Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

ROFL! (having just had to open mine up to wiggle the spade connectors on the
timer)

I didn't know gods had timers inside with spade connectors. Lower tech
than one might have expected.

Pete

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:31:27 +0000, Pete Verdon wrote:

newshound wrote:
wrote

Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

ROFL! (having just had to open mine up to wiggle the spade connectors on the
timer)

I didn't know gods had timers inside with spade connectors. Lower tech
than one might have expected.

No, but the Devil is in the detail...

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:43:47 -0800, mark_bluemel wrote:

My recommendation is that you suggest one or more workable solutions -
others have suggested a few - and if the church won't accept one of
them, politely decline the job.

Trouble with Godbotherers, they probably expect a miracle.

--
John Stumbles

Thank God I'm an atheist

Appelation Controlee wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:31:27 +0000, Pete Verdon wrote:

newshound wrote:
wrote

Offer to fit a Saniflo.

See if their god really is on their side.

ROFL! (having just had to open mine up to wiggle the spade
connectors on the timer)

I didn't know gods had timers inside with spade connectors. Lower
tech than one might have expected.

No, but the Devil is in the detail...

See you later, macerator....