Interesting...

As some may remember, I'm fixing a 1950's bungalow, with a solid concrete
uninsulated ground floor.[1]

I'd ruled out insulation, believing it had to go *under* the screed (or
slab). Turns out I was wrong, when I came across Marmox board - a
polystyrene insulating board faced with fibre glass/cement which can
*allegedly* be tiled straight onto (compressive load 30 tonnes/m2 according
to manufacturer).

I then ruled out UFH, believing electric was the only option in this case.

Ho hum: While I was looking to see if there was anything cheaper than
Marmox, came across this:

http://www.floorheater.co.uk/

"Easy panel" is the product of interest - 25mm polystyrene with grooves to
take 12mm or 16mm PEX pipe for wet underfloor heating. 30t/m2 compressive
load, 15t/m2 prolonged.

Looks like the company is importing a Swedish, or at least Scandanavian
product. Claims you can tile straight onto it. Had a response to an email
earlier to them, just waiting to see the cost of the insulated 25mm board
(non insulated products are priced on the website).

*If* it compares favourably to Marmox + cost of rads+vertical rads + fan
convectors (which I won't then need) I shall have to give it serious
consideration.

I'm not asking advice, because I'd be amazed if anyone here has actually
installed this stuff (please speak up if you have or know someone!) -
thought it might be of interest though...

If the quote looks reasonable, I'll ask for an offcut to look at and do a
test bond to the floor to see if it looks like it will actually handle the
job. Really don't want to be putting tiles down and taking them up again
before I'm dead, if I can help it ;-

Cheers

Tim

[1] Repeated my boss's measurements on Sunday: 1 thermometer 0.7m above
floor, another 0.05m above floor. 4C difference - and my feet were freezing
off through socks and shoes. Granted the building is only minimally heated
for frost protection (I brought the air upto 12C with half a central
heating system and a gas fire over 6 hours) - so the slab is extra cold,
but all the same... It's probably going to be a cold floor if I just tile
over it.

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:56:30 +0000, Tim S wrote:

http://www.floorheater.co.uk/

Interesting. I've added a link to the Wiki UFH page
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...rfloor_Heating.

Have you priced up getting the existing floor dug out and replaced with
proper insulated slab with embedded UFH? No system using thin insulation on
top of an existing uninsulated slab is going to give similar efficiency.
Plus is the existing slab properly DPCed?

On a job I've been working on the builders did just this - to an area of
about 7m x 3m total. Took 2 labourers about a day to dig it out, maybe
half a day to level the area with concrete, maybe another half day to lay
polythene DPC + 100m polystyrene (+ UFH piping), another day or so to
concrete. They were mixing up the concrete in a barrowmix: on a bigger job
with readymix one would obviously save some time over that.

--
John Stumbles

I've got nothing against racists - I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one

Hi,

John Stumbles coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:56:30 +0000, Tim S wrote:

http://www.floorheater.co.uk/

Interesting. I've added a link to the Wiki UFH page
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...rfloor_Heating.

Have you priced up getting the existing floor dug out and replaced with
proper insulated slab with embedded UFH?

No - partly because the thought of the amount of work, mess and expected
cost scared me (even if I didn't do the job!). Perhaps it might be less bad
than I thought if I did price it, but it's too late now - I've made the
decision not to do that and I'm too single minded to change my mind at this
stage as work's started (which is probably a good thing IMHO with a large
project). The idea of adding any insulation to the surface was an
opportunistic one as it doesn't add much to the work and doesn't break the
basic plan. The UFH is even more opportunistic - but I'm not commited until
I prove it to not be an utterly stupid thing to do. At least the extra work
for UFL plumbing is offest by no radiator plumbing.

If I think for one minute that sticking stuff under floor tiles is going to
make them less than long lived, I'll scrap this and go back to the original
plan as robustness and longevity is a higher priority for us.

No system using thin insulation
on top of an existing uninsulated slab is going to give similar
efficiency.

Agreed. The whole thing started off due to discussion at work about how
effective 25mm of Jablite was compared to nothing. Of course, there'll be
more losses with UFL as it runs at 27C as opposed to the floor tiles
getting to maybe 18C with insulation but no UFH. There is an element of a
previous discussion suggesting losses away from the external walls may be
less due to the ground retaining some heat - I'll never calculate that
though. But a worse case calculation based on the board's k-value assuming
a certain (constant) ground temperature will be easy enough.

Plus is the existing slab properly DPCed?

No. None whatsoever. The email I got back from teh company said to use
cementous tile adhesive to stick the panels down as what they'd normally
recommend isn't very good in the damp. But I'm looking at a couple of coats
of Aquaseal (Aqua Stop IIRC) onto the concrete / screed anyway for good
measure. The floor has survived 50 years with a variety of floor coverings
including vinyl, clay tiles and wood tiles with no obvious problems so I'm
not particularly concerned. No mushrooms on the walls, though that may be
due to what looks like a chemical DPC that's been injected some time ago
(found the injection holes behind some skirting I pulled off last week).


On a job I've been working on the builders did just this - to an area of
about 7m x 3m total. Took 2 labourers about a day to dig it out, maybe
half a day to level the area with concrete, maybe another half day to lay
polythene DPC + 100m polystyrene (+ UFH piping), another day or so to
concrete. They were mixing up the concrete in a barrowmix: on a bigger job
with readymix one would obviously save some time over that.


That's interesting. The cost break point for me for 95m2 is about 2500 quid.
That is the combined cost of Marmox board (stronger jablite in effect) and
all the rads, soem vertical rads (not cheap but a necessity due to room
shapes) and a couple of Myson fan convectors (also not cheap, but
required).

I wonder why no-one's done a marmox type board based of PIR foam? Would seem
to be an obvious product, unless there's a technical difficulty... Did scan
the Celotex and Kingspan sites, but there's nothing identical in
application.

I'll come back when I have some more info from them.

Cheers

Tim

Looks like the company is importing a Swedish, or at least Scandanavian
product. Claims you can tile straight onto it.

One claim that strikes me as taking the proverbial was...

"Whereas an electrical system can easily be damaged irreparably by a
lightning strike or power-surge, The Box system utilises a water pipe
to heat the floor, meaning it's safe from any such damage."

I haven't heard of any internal underfloor electric heating suffering
from a direct lightning strike personally, but i'm sure it's no more
likely than a muppet drilling fixings into a wet floor system.

Oh, and then there are the (minor) discrepancies, like...

"It has been established through careful testing that the PEX water
pipe used in the system could last, in use, for over 400 years."

"In special tests carried out by the Royal Institute of Technology,
Stockholm, it is estimated that our water pipe could last, in use, for
up to 500 years!"

Colin Wilson coughed up some electrons that declared:

Looks like the company is importing a Swedish, or at least Scandanavian
product. Claims you can tile straight onto it.

One claim that strikes me as taking the proverbial was...

"Whereas an electrical system can easily be damaged irreparably by a
lightning strike or power-surge, The Box system utilises a water pipe
to heat the floor, meaning it's safe from any such damage."

I haven't heard of any internal underfloor electric heating suffering
from a direct lightning strike personally, but i'm sure it's no more
likely than a muppet drilling fixings into a wet floor system.

Oh, and then there are the (minor) discrepancies, like...

"It has been established through careful testing that the PEX water
pipe used in the system could last, in use, for over 400 years."

"In special tests carried out by the Royal Institute of Technology,
Stockholm, it is estimated that our water pipe could last, in use, for
up to 500 years!"

I noticed that. But PEX is PEX, so I'm happy with that bit - other people
use it for UFH.

It's the ability of the panels not to deform and to remain stuck that I'm
most concerned about.

It's very hard finding people who've tried this stuff - Marmox is nigh on
impossible to verify and that's a more common product AFAICS...

Cheers

Tim

In article , Tim S
writes

I wonder why no-one's done a marmox type board based of PIR foam? Would seem
to be an obvious product, unless there's a technical difficulty... Did scan
the Celotex and Kingspan sites, but there's nothing identical in
application.

I'm not convinced that composite boards are such an advantage in
flooring applications, I think I'd prefer a layer of easily laid PIR
foam sheets carefully sealed at joints, followed by your Marmox with
staggered joints and bonded down with contact adhesive.

PIR foam sheets rated for use in floors are available.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

Tim S wrote:
Colin Wilson coughed up some electrons that declared:

Looks like the company is importing a Swedish, or at least Scandanavian
product. Claims you can tile straight onto it.

One claim that strikes me as taking the proverbial was...

"Whereas an electrical system can easily be damaged irreparably by a
lightning strike or power-surge, The Box system utilises a water pipe
to heat the floor, meaning it's safe from any such damage."

I haven't heard of any internal underfloor electric heating suffering
from a direct lightning strike personally, but i'm sure it's no more
likely than a muppet drilling fixings into a wet floor system.

Oh, and then there are the (minor) discrepancies, like...

"It has been established through careful testing that the PEX water
pipe used in the system could last, in use, for over 400 years."

"In special tests carried out by the Royal Institute of Technology,
Stockholm, it is estimated that our water pipe could last, in use, for
up to 500 years!"

I noticed that. But PEX is PEX, so I'm happy with that bit - other people
use it for UFH.

It's the ability of the panels not to deform and to remain stuck that I'm
most concerned about.

It's very hard finding people who've tried this stuff - Marmox is nigh on
impossible to verify and that's a more common product AFAICS...

Cheers

Tim

Maybe best bet is get a piece, put a tile on it, stand on it and have
someone measure it accurately. Any movement and forget it.


NT

coughed up some electrons that declared:



Maybe best bet is get a piece, put a tile on it, stand on it and have
someone measure it accurately. Any movement and forget it.


NT

Sound advice - then I can make sure the DPM/adhesive/board/adhesive/tile
bonds are all happy.

Waiting for a price by email - my ISP crashed for the entire day so email
for me is backed up on other people's servers

Cheers

Tim

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:


Waiting for a price by email - my ISP crashed for the entire day so email
for me is backed up on other people's servers

OK. The ISP lost their ATM uplink to BT's 20C network. Ow.

But it's back, I have the email and it looks like:

Marmox 20mm and EasyPanel 25mm [1] are *very* similar in price.
PEX pipe and manifolds are comparable to the rads/convectors I would need.

So - insulation vs insulation+UFH is comparable. Either is 2k more expensive
than doing neither (what I originally intended).

I think it would be worth getting a sample of the EasyPanel for
examination - after I run a crude heat loss calculation...

[1] The PEX pipe is 16mm, so even in 25mm, some of the pipe will have a lot
less insulation between it and the floor slab. 20 vs 2

Cheers

Tim

Ah - seem to have found the actual manufacturer at last:

http://www.floore.se/

Better pictures and technical info in this PDF:

http://www.floore.se/filer/ForetagspresFlooreEN.pdf

Seems to rely on 0.1mm ali foil to strengthen the top layer, nothing
apparent on the bottom face. Need Mapei Kerabond to stick tiles on.
----

Right - anyone know a good floor U-value calculator (free) that allows me to
play with layer construction? Google's not being very helpful.



My pathetically crude number crunch: 25mm EasyPanel has a U-value of 1.63.
20mm Marmox is ballpark at about 1.3

If we assume:

a) the ground is 5C mean in winter (seems to be bourne out by a rough slab
surface measuremment I took last week),

b) The ground is an infinite heatsink (worst case, but largely ********, but
I don't have data to do better)

c) We consider a floor with insulation at U=1.5 and compare UFH (27C) vs
insulated with floor surface at 19C, then the *extra* power lost by the UFH
system, during the colder days is:

d) Floor area of kitchen is 19m2

(27-19)*19*1.5=an *extra* 230W wasted by UFL. This is on top of the common
base loss of (19-5)*19*1.5=400W

230W is about a tenner per month for heating that room for 12 hours at
current gas prices. Plus the other rooms.

Hmm - not looking good, but not unexpected...

It would be interesting to do these numbers properly though...

Tim S wrote:
Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:


Waiting for a price by email - my ISP crashed for the entire day so email
for me is backed up on other people's servers

OK. The ISP lost their ATM uplink to BT's 20C network. Ow.

But it's back, I have the email and it looks like:

Marmox 20mm and EasyPanel 25mm [1] are *very* similar in price.
PEX pipe and manifolds are comparable to the rads/convectors I would need.

So - insulation vs insulation+UFH is comparable. Either is 2k more expensive
than doing neither (what I originally intended).

I think it would be worth getting a sample of the EasyPanel for
examination - after I run a crude heat loss calculation...

[1] The PEX pipe is 16mm, so even in 25mm, some of the pipe will have a lot
less insulation between it and the floor slab. 20 vs 2

Cheers

Tim
Tim: the heatloss down to heat loss up ratio is entirely dependent on
the ratio of insulation underneath to isnualation above `(flooring,
carpets dogs/cats sofas etc)

50mm is probably the minimum for a screed floor but this should work
well enough.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim: the heatloss down to heat loss up ratio is entirely dependent on
the ratio of insulation underneath to isnualation above `(flooring,
carpets dogs/cats sofas etc)

Seems improbable.

If the floor's at 25, and the room at 20, but the ground underneath at 5
I'd expect a *lot* more loss downwards that if the ground underneath
was at 15.

And I suspect the "U" value of several metres of dry soil could be quite
high - whereas wet soil, with water trickling through it, could steal
enormous amounts of heat.

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim: the heatloss down to heat loss up ratio is entirely dependent on
the ratio of insulation underneath to isnualation above `(flooring,
carpets dogs/cats sofas etc)

Seems improbable.

If the floor's at 25, and the room at 20, but the ground underneath at 5
I'd expect a *lot* more loss downwards that if the ground underneath
was at 15.

You run UFH at around 45C water.

At that temp the differential between heat lost down to up, is much less
dependent on outside temp: inside temp.


And I suspect the "U" value of several metres of dry soil could be quite
high - whereas wet soil, with water trickling through it, could steal
enormous amounts of heat.


3 meters of wet soil is about the same as 50mm of polystyrene.

Bur the thermal 'mass' is vast.

takes days of heating to get it up to temp..


Andy

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

3 meters of wet soil is about the same as 50mm of polystyrene.

And wet (well quite damp) soil is what I have.

Bur the thermal 'mass' is vast.

takes days of heating to get it up to temp..

And it's going to arrive at a mean away from the walls at this time of year,
assuming room heated 50% of the day, of perhaps avg(5,27) = 16.

Repeating crappy calculation from earlier:

Area=19m2, deltaT=11C, U=1.63 - so total loss down is 340W

With 20mm Marmox and no UFH, lets say the mean earth mass is avg(5,20) = 12C
ish U=1.3, deltaT=8C so total loss down is 200W ish.

With that scenario, we could say the "luxury" of UFH costs us an extra 140W
for 19m2 room at 50% duty cycle heating. That's more like 2.50 quid/month
for the colder months.

Most of the other rooms downstairs are bedrooms, so should be on a lower
duty cycle, but as 2 are kids bedrooms, that may not always be true...

Hmm.

I'm off to have a look at doing better calculations...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

Ah - seem to have found the actual manufacturer at last:

http://www.floore.se/

Better pictures and technical info in this PDF:

http://www.floore.se/filer/ForetagspresFlooreEN.pdf

And my immediate thought is:

Marmox looks robust - both faces are surfaced with fibreglass bonded with a
cementous polymer. Sounds solid stuff...

http://www.marmox.com/pdf/Marmox%20F...on%20Sheet.pdf


EasyPanel seems Ok on the top (0.1mm foil). But the bottom looks weak. How
well is that stuff going to stick down, and stay stuck down?...

I'd have it under a floating floor, where minor compression isn't problem.
I'm not yet convinced it's going to provide solid lasting support for
tiles...

Sample time I think...

Cheers

Tim

On Jan 7, 10:21*am, Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

3 meters of wet soil is about the same as 50mm of polystyrene.

And wet (well quite damp) soil is what I have.

Bur the thermal 'mass' is vast.

takes days of heating to get it up to temp..

And it's going to arrive at a mean away from the walls at this time of year,
assuming room heated 50% of the day, of perhaps avg(5,27) = 16.

Repeating crappy calculation from earlier:

Area=19m2, deltaT=11C, U=1.63 - so total loss down is 340W

With 20mm Marmox and no UFH, lets say the mean earth mass is avg(5,20) = 12C
ish U=1.3, deltaT=8C so total loss down is 200W ish.

With that scenario, we could say the "luxury" of UFH costs us an extra 140W
for 19m2 room at 50% duty cycle heating. That's more like 2.50 quid/month
for the colder months.

Most of the other rooms downstairs are bedrooms, so should be on a lower
duty cycle, but as 2 are kids bedrooms, that may not always be true...

Hmm.

I'm off to have a look at doing better calculations...

Cheers

Tim

This is 'presumably?' electric cable underfloor heating?
An acquaintance has underfloor water heating cables, tied in with part
of an older installation of baseboard water radiators in the basement
area, from a conversion from oil furnace to electric hot water furnace
by a previous owner.

terry coughed up some electrons that declared:


This is 'presumably?' electric cable underfloor heating?

No - it's wet. Electric would be too expensive.

Cheers

Tim

wrote:
On 7 Jan,
Tim S wrote:

With that scenario, we could say the "luxury" of UFH costs us an extra 140W
for 19m2 room at 50% duty cycle heating. That's more like 2.50 quid/month
for the colder months.

Most of the other rooms downstairs are bedrooms, so should be on a lower
duty cycle, but as 2 are kids bedrooms, that may not always be true...

Hmm.

You should be able to run the roms at a lower temperature with UFH, as the
heat is where you want it. This will negate some of the extra losses thrpugh
the floor.

yup.

I have a roomstat set to 18C and SWMBO says its 'fine with a jumper on'

By running 24x7, that 18C is utterly even: with timing, I used to feel
cold until the stat showed 19-20C.

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

I have a roomstat set to 18C and SWMBO says its 'fine with a jumper on'

By running 24x7, that 18C is utterly even: with timing, I used to feel
cold until the stat showed 19-20C.

That's interesting. Do you have a feel for whether it was much more
expensive to run at 18C all the time.

BTW - found an approximation formula for U-values of uninsulated floors:

http://www.warmafloor.co.uk/knowledg...insulation.asp

(some good reading material there)

U = 0.05 + 1.65(P/A) - 0.6(P/A)^2

where P=length of exposed perimeter wall, A=floor area.

I've got IIRC a P/A of 0.5, so base U-value of 0.73.

I'll try some numbers with that after I call the gas/leccy boards...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

I have a roomstat set to 18C and SWMBO says its 'fine with a jumper on'

By running 24x7, that 18C is utterly even: with timing, I used to feel
cold until the stat showed 19-20C.

That's interesting. Do you have a feel for whether it was much more
expensive to run at 18C all the time.

To be honest, what used to happen is that there would be a two hour burn
in the morning, which would make the passageway with the pipes a magnet
for the cats, and then the temp would still be only up at about 15-16 in
this sort of weather, and the timing comes on around 3pm, and it would
not be fully warm by 8pm..so 5 hours of full boiler output more or less,
mostly warming the slab, not the room.

Now I've gone 24x7, the most significant thing is that he return temps
out of the floor are MUCH higher, showing the slab isn't icy, and the
boiler is cycling as a result. i.e. its doing about a 50/50 cycle in the
night, with about a couple of hours between demand for heat, but the
boiler is only doing about a 50/50 cycles in that time..

My gut feeling is that its no worse, and may in fact be a bit BETTER.

Mainly due to the fact that there are no cold spots. The sta is mounted
on a massive concrete brick faced double chimney stack..so that used to
suck heat requiring a higher temp elsewhere. like the outside walls
etc..now its all evened out, I suspect the air temps are better.

The other issue is that during fast heat up periods, the floor gets
super warm - especially under the sofas. I suspect that in itself
increases heat losses from the floor downwards as well.

I am tempted to leave it like that all year long, and simply let the
stat take care of everything. In summer the nighttime temps in that room
are seldom below 18 anyway.


BTW - found an approximation formula for U-values of uninsulated floors:

http://www.warmafloor.co.uk/knowledg...insulation.asp

(some good reading material there)

U = 0.05 + 1.65(P/A) - 0.6(P/A)^2

where P=length of exposed perimeter wall, A=floor area.

I've got IIRC a P/A of 0.5, so base U-value of 0.73.

Thats not too bad. Whats teh values for suspended block and beam :-(

I'll try some numbers with that after I call the gas/leccy boards...

Cheers

Tim

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

I've got IIRC a P/A of 0.5, so base U-value of 0.73.

Thats not too bad. Whats teh values for suspended block and beam :-(

Righty ho - best effort so far:

http://www.celotex.co.uk/Other-Resou...lue-Calculator

Solid floor, P/A=0.5, 12mm celotex[1] gives:

Overall U-Value = 0.47
Celotex R-Value = 0.522

So floor base U-value =

1/(1/0.47 - 0.522) = 0.62 which is pleasingly similar to 0.73 to make them
believable.

[1] 12mm PIR is roughly similar to 25mm EPS

OK - ran it again for your beamyblock floor:

U-value final = 0.52
R-value (celotex) = 0.522

So sub-floor (uninsulated) U-value = 1/(1/0.52 - 0.522) = 0.71W/m2K

============================================

So, me with my 25mm EPS:

Total U-value with EPS = 1/(1/0.62 + 1/1.63) = 0.45W/m2K

For UFH: Assuming ground is 5C, tile surface is 27C (maybe that over, water
is 27 return IIRC for EasyPanel)

Watts = 19m2 * 0.45 * (27-5) = 190W loss through slab.

For tile temperature of 22C, ground temp of 10C, loss = 100W

If we consider the whole house running on the same time profile:

95m2 * (22-10) * 0.45 = 510W = 60p of gas for 24 hours in ground losses for
the entire house.

I really don't know how the water temperature will relate to average tile
temp, nor what the effective soil temperatur will get to, hence the wild
guesses. But I think I'm in the right order of magnitude, probably withing
a factor of 2.

If I stuck tiles to teh concrete like I was going to, and they got to 16C,
ground temp 5C, then losses would be about 640W for the whole house.

So UFL + fiddling bit of EPS might be no less "green" than having cold feet.

Apparantly there's an option to request thicker panels. I suppose a pervert
could buy their thin panels and stick 12mm or even 20-ish mm celotex under
them, which would be more like 40mm jablite/EPS, but that's a lot of
composite components bonded and I'm already worried about my tiles falling
off.

Interesting stuff.

You know, if the bloody government was as green as it claimed, they give
away copies of a fully featured U-value calculator and a simple-sister
version so people could make intelligent decisions.

Oh, hang on - they don;t want us to think, do they - might expose their
scamming ways.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:

Interesting stuff.

You know, if the bloody government was as green as it claimed, they give
away copies of a fully featured U-value calculator and a simple-sister
version so people could make intelligent decisions.

Oh, hang on - they don;t want us to think, do they - might expose their
scamming ways.

Cheers

Tim

Indeed. What I do know is that I get a lot more heatloss with a vented
underfloor space than the calcs show..when the wind blows.

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:51:47 +0000, Tim S wrote:

If we assume:

a) the ground is 5C mean in winter (seems to be bourne out by a rough slab
surface measuremment I took last week),

b) The ground is an infinite heatsink (worst case, but largely ********, but
I don't have data to do better)

There's a 'standard' U value for solid floors of 0.36 from BS5449(1990)



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I used to think the brain was the most interesting part of the body
- until I realised what was telling me that

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

Ho hum: While I was looking to see if there was anything cheaper than
Marmox, came across this:

Couple of factual followups, for anyone reading this later from google...

I've just handled a piece of 10mm (ish) "Warmup" under-tile insulation
panel, down at Topps Tiles place. It appears identical to Marmox.

It is *very* robust. The surface is as hard as rock and the softer core foam
(it's foam rather than squidged white stuff like jablite) feels very robust
in the face of tearing or compression. I would have no qualms about using
this to achieve basic insulation under tiles - though I'd go for at least
20mm if practical.


http://www.floorheater.co.uk/

Just had a message back from an old friend in Sweden. This product is really
made by these people: www.floore.se

He says that he's checked and a couple of the big DIY sheds out there are
carrying this product, so we conclude it probably has basic credibility at
least. I'll follow up when i get my mitts on the sample I've been promised.

Cheers

Tim