I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before
installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I
could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.

Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans?
That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat,
come to think of it (satin or matt).

Your recommendations welcome.

Regards
Richard

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:48:43 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote:

I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before
installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I
could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.

Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans?
That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat,
come to think of it (satin or matt).

Your recommendations welcome.

Regards
Richard

==================================
I would have reservations about spraying wooden windows; I think that
primer needs to be brushed in no matter how tedious, but that may just be
my old-fashioned prejudice. In any case I would suggest a good oil based
primer rather than water based.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

Cicero wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:48:43 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote:

I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before
installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I
could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.

Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans?
That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat,
come to think of it (satin or matt).

Your recommendations welcome.

Regards
Richard

==================================
I would have reservations about spraying wooden windows; I think that
primer needs to be brushed in no matter how tedious, but that may just be
my old-fashioned prejudice. In any case I would suggest a good oil based
primer rather than water based.

Cic.


I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing
for 2 windows.
If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up
with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method
you use, and masking isn't always that effective.

On Apr 16, 2:41*pm, Stuart Noble
wrote:

I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing
for 2 windows.
If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up
with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method
you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -

With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely
assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is
only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four
hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to
sand and paint. Several times.

Regards
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble
wrote:

I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing
for 2 windows.
If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up
with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method
you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -

With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely
assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is
only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four
hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to
sand and paint. Several times.

Regards
Richard


You still have to weigh up the time to set up and clean up afterwards,
and the sanding will be the same whatever method. Primer/ undercoat is
thick, and not ideally suited to spraying. You can thin it but the
aggregate will either tend to settle out or it'll block the nozzle. OTOH
car paints are designed to be sprayed but they're not flexible enough
for wood IMO

On 16 Apr, 17:51, Stuart Noble
wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble
wrote:

I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing
for 2 windows.
If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up
with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method
you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -

With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely
assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is
only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four
hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to
sand and paint. Several times.

Regards
Richard

You still have to weigh up the time to set up and clean up afterwards,
and the sanding will be the same whatever method. Primer/ undercoat is
thick, and not ideally suited to spraying. You can thin it but the
aggregate will either tend to settle out or it'll block the nozzle. OTOH
car paints are designed to be sprayed but they're not flexible enough
for wood IMO- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I now have another problem, in that having seen the windows in proper
daylight, I need to have serious words with the joiner about the
quality. As in possibly rejecting them altogether ...

Regards
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble
wrote:

I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing
for 2 windows.
If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up
with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method
you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -

With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely
assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is
only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four
hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to
sand and paint. Several times.

Regards
Richard

You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.

Its not too bad.

Then spray car paint on top.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.

Its not too bad.

Then spray car paint on top.

Is this recommended for wood?

As mentioned in my previous post, this is becoming academic. I'm now
waiting for a reply from the joiner to my list of "issues" with these
windows. The tenons that hold the frame together are either too small
(gaps) or too big (splintering the wood). There are therefore screws
where screws shouldn't be needed. The profiles on the insides of the
sashes are damaged at the ends (presumably where they've come off the
machine). Generally the finish is poor and raggedy. At least 2 of the
sashes are slightly warped. There are cracks in the ends of the sill -
admittedly I'd be cutting those bits off, but this is indicative of
the poor quality of the timber.

As it's hard to see how any of this can be rectified, I'm minded to
reject them altogether. Fortunately I've only paid him half of the
nearly two grand that they cost (2 casement windows, 2100 x 1000, four
sashes in each, flush fitting, opening in pairs).

For the moment I've just mentioned the defects in a text message and
am awaiting his response. Unless he comes up with a better suggestion,
I will be inviting him to collect them, on return of my deposit. I'm
glad I didn't tell him to take them away when he delivered them, or
I'd be a grand down with no windows to bargain with.

Ah well. Will see how it pans out. Does anyone have any opinions on
this sad situation?

Regards
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.

Its not too bad.

Then spray car paint on top.

Is this recommended for wood?

As mentioned in my previous post, this is becoming academic. I'm now
waiting for a reply from the joiner to my list of "issues" with these
windows. The tenons that hold the frame together are either too small
(gaps) or too big (splintering the wood). There are therefore screws
where screws shouldn't be needed. The profiles on the insides of the
sashes are damaged at the ends (presumably where they've come off the
machine). Generally the finish is poor and raggedy. At least 2 of the
sashes are slightly warped. There are cracks in the ends of the sill -
admittedly I'd be cutting those bits off, but this is indicative of
the poor quality of the timber.

As it's hard to see how any of this can be rectified, I'm minded to
reject them altogether. Fortunately I've only paid him half of the
nearly two grand that they cost (2 casement windows, 2100 x 1000, four
sashes in each, flush fitting, opening in pairs).

For the moment I've just mentioned the defects in a text message and
am awaiting his response. Unless he comes up with a better suggestion,
I will be inviting him to collect them, on return of my deposit. I'm
glad I didn't tell him to take them away when he delivered them, or
I'd be a grand down with no windows to bargain with.

Ah well. Will see how it pans out. Does anyone have any opinions on
this sad situation?

Regards
Richard

The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was
machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the
timber they would use?

Stuart Noble wrote:

The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was
machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the
timber they would use?

Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel
that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly
to finish his work ;-) These were two 2100 x 1000 flush-fitting
casement windows, 4 opening sashes in each, to regs, at a cost of
1950 pounds.

I have the windows, and have paid a deposit of 1000 pounds, but not
the balance. If I hear nothing from him by the weekend, I am going to
send a letter, formally rejecting the goods, and giving him 14 days to
return my deposit and take them away.

I suspect he won't be willing to do this. What I'm not sure of is the
legal position if he doesn't refund my money, and I'm left holding the
windows.

The mistake I made was to take someone else's recommendation without
having seen any work, on the basis that he promised to be quicker than
another joiner, whose work I have seen (and very good it is). I can't
afford to commission replacements from the other joiner, without a
refund here.

Regards
Richard

"geraldthehamster" wrote in message
...
Stuart Noble wrote:

The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was
machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the
timber they would use?

Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel
that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly
to finish his work ;-) These were two 2100 x 1000 flush-fitting
casement windows, 4 opening sashes in each, to regs, at a cost of
1950 pounds.

I have the windows, and have paid a deposit of 1000 pounds, but not
the balance. If I hear nothing from him by the weekend, I am going to
send a letter, formally rejecting the goods, and giving him 14 days to
return my deposit and take them away.

I suspect he won't be willing to do this. What I'm not sure of is the
legal position if he doesn't refund my money, and I'm left holding the
windows.

If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him
in the county court (no such thing as a "small claims court"). This can be
done on-line at a cost of £60, which the defendant pays if the action goes
against him. Small claims are for failure to provide goods or services up to
a loss limit of £5000. Having myself just had an "premium fit" for a
kitchen, which wasn't, in my view, from a "well known kitchen and furniture
supplier" (not to be confused with MI5), who told me "we don't pay
compensation", I did this (asking for £1000) and they settled almost
immediately for £650 out of court (just paid cheque in). Of course a small
trader who has done a crap job but who is running at a loss now, may hold
out more, but it's worth a try. County court claims outsanding against one
are a business embarrassment. I would never suggest ltigation for profit as
this is an appalling way to treat traders who are trying to make a living.
Nonetheless, from your description of the windows, it *sounds* as if you
have been robbed - in which case redress is justified. Only you (and the
joiner) know the truth of the matter.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


The mistake I made was to take someone else's recommendation without
having seen any work, on the basis that he promised to be quicker than
another joiner, whose work I have seen (and very good it is). I can't
afford to commission replacements from the other joiner, without a
refund here.

Regards
Richard

Bob Mannix wrote:

If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him
in the county court

Thanks. I know about that, but your advice is welcome all the same.
That's the legal avenue, but I'm reluctant to go down that route
because of the delay it will cause, and the hassle in trying to get
the money out of him at the end of it.

What would happen if I got a judgement and he declined to pay?
Ultimately a bailiff could seize goods to the value (at auction, ie
goods to more than the value). I already have goods in my possession
that are worth what I have paid as a deposit. If the alternative is a
lengthy legal process with an uncertain practical outcome, I'm
inclined to keep them, fill and sand them and make use of them. It's
possible that he might take this cutting of his losses as the best
outcome, in any case. FWIW nothing was written down or witnessed,
concerning the order. We'll see.

Regards
Richard

Bob Mannix wrote:

If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him
in the county court

Thanks. I know about that, but your advice is welcome all the same.
That's the legal avenue, but I'm reluctant to go down that route
because of the delay it will cause, and the hassle in trying to get
the money out of him at the end of it.

What would happen if I got a judgement and he declined to pay?
Ultimately a bailiff could seize goods to the value (at auction, ie
goods to more than the value). I already have goods in my possession
that are worth what I have paid as a deposit. If the alternative is a
lengthy legal process with an uncertain practical outcome, I'm
inclined to keep them, fill and sand them and make use of them. It's
possible that he might take this cutting of his losses as the best
outcome, in any case. FWIW nothing was written down or witnessed,
concerning the order. We'll see.

Regards
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was
machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the
timber they would use?

Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel
that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly
to finish his work ;-)

No, but it makes a difference as to whether they're worth having at half
price (which may be the logical outcome if they actually fit the space).

"Softwood" is used to make pallets (and Magnet windows), as well as some
very high class joinery in public buildings, so it's important to know
which grade is being used. The normal spec for this type of job would be
"unsorted European redwood", which is the quality you would expect in
planed material from a reputable timber merchant i.e. tight grained,
straight, with a finish that requires no extra preparation. That is
probably going to cost the joiner twice the price of what he *could* get
away with in the absence of a specification.

On 17 Apr, 18:27, Stuart Noble
wrote:
(which may be the logical outcome if they actually fit the space).

"Softwood" is used to make pallets (and Magnet windows), as well as some
very high class joinery in public buildings, so it's important to know
which grade is being used. The normal spec for this type of job would be
"unsorted European redwood", which is the quality you would expect in
planed material from a reputable timber merchant i.e. tight grained,
straight, with a finish that requires no extra preparation. That is
probably going to cost the joiner twice the price of what he *could* get
away with in the absence of a specification.

Quite. Well he ain't getting away with it in the absence of a
specification on my shift ;-)

Regards
Richard