Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Cheers,

john

On Apr 10, 8:52*am, John Nagelson wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?


I'd be amazed if any of these ways of making electriciity was cheaper
than buying it off the grid. I'd also be amazed if any of them was
better for the environment than buying it from the grid. I would
worry about the noise - the continuous humm of even a well silenced
generator is quite wearing for those who live within earshot.

Using those fuels for direct heating is another matter. For
electricity I'd use PV panels, possibly a wind turbine if I lived
somewhere extremely windy.

I used to live off grid on a boat and did heating by coal and oil and
electricity from PV. Cooking from bottled gas. You can get oil fired
boilers that do not use any electricty (Kabola for example).

Robert

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid'

Why? There is no way you will generate electricity cheaper than that
from the grid.

On Apr 10, 9:36*am, "Anthony R. Gold" wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson

wrote:

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, ageneratorfuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

That sounds VERY hard, requiring a boiler and steam turbine.

Yes indeed - basically a steam engine, but there were a lot about in
the UK until about 1950, although I guess maintenance would be a
problem!

3) how easy is it to run ageneratorfuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Many thanks for this info, which is new to me! This means I could get
a Honda diesel generator and keep the paraffin in the kind of tank
used for fuelling heating systems.

4) what about running an oil-fuelledgeneratoron cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

I guess legal but smelly (assuming you mean used oil) with the same noise
issues as fuel oil but also problems with moisture contamination and
corrosion, securing a reliable source and performing whatever filtering
and purification are needed. *It may also have problems of solidifying
in cold weather.

I meant buying big bottles of economy cooking oil from Asda's, as some
people do for unlawful use in their cars. I think using it in a
generator would be lawful (unless someone on uk. legal otherwise).

You never asked about LPG/propane which is another possibility. *I run a
40kW LPG generator with automatic transfer just as a backup during power
failures in a place where the power does fail all too regularly.

Quite a lot of kW! Hadn't considered LPG. Is it poss to get smaller
generators using this as fuel?

Cherers,

John

On Apr 10, 9:13*am, RobertL wrote:
On Apr 10, 8:52*am, John Nagelson wrote:

Using those fuels for direct heating is another matter. *For
electricity I'd use PV panels, possibly a wind turbine if I lived
somewhere extremely windy.

I used to live off grid on *a boat and did heating by coal and oil and
electricity from PV. Cooking from bottled gas. *You can get oil fired
boilers that do not use any electricty (Kabola for example).

I'll be using solid fuel and maybe also oil for heating.

Very interested in an oil-fired boiler that does not use electricity.
Where does the force come from to work the water pump? Does it include
a small generator to output a current to do this? (I've always thought
that would be a good idea). Or does it do it without involving
electricity at all??

Cheers,

John (still looking into PVs too)

Anthony R. Gold wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in
the US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

Not hard, just consider cost to buy and maintain, the storage of fuel
and the noise of the engine to you and to your neighbours.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

That sounds VERY hard, requiring a boiler and steam turbine. Leave
that to the public utilities.

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Is that true?
Wow. I've learned something new this morning...
I wonder which important nugget of knowledge that will force out in order to
make room ;-)
Like the time I took a wine tasting course and forgot how to drive..

I meant buying big bottles of economy cooking oil from Asda's, as some
people do for unlawful use in their cars. I think using it in a
generator would be lawful (unless someone on uk. legal otherwise).

Perfectly legal for road use since changes in the revenue regulations:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

However the price of new vegetable oil has doubled in the last 12
months or so to around £1 / litre - so only just compares favourably
with road diesel - and is totally uneconomic compared to kerosene for
non-road applications.

John Nagelson wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Here you go, off the shelf:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca...ven-generators
£5k
This heavy duty, diesel engine powered generator provides either main or
emergency back up power for domestic, commercial and industrial
premises. Robust construction, rugged yet technologically superior
components and a Lister engine ensures dependability and years of
reliable service.

* 16.8kVA output at 230v single phase
* Lister 4-stroke air cooled diesel engine
* Heavy duty self regulating brushless alternators (1500rpm, 50Hz)
* 12 volt, key switch electric start
* Alternator mounted control panel with ammeter, voltmeter &
overload circuit breaker
* Mounted on heavy gauge iron base
* Standard accessories include engine mounted fuel tank, silencer,
battery





4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Cheers,

john

On Apr 10, 10:24*am, " wrote:
I meant buying big bottles of economy cooking oil from Asda's, as some
people do for unlawful use in their cars. I think using it in a
generator would be lawful (unless someone on uk. legal otherwise).

Perfectly legal for road use since changes in the revenue regulations:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

Someone who buys it from Asda's as cooking oil still needs to pay 27.1
pence per litre to the government in tax if they use it as vehicle
fuel:

http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/legal-stuff

John

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

Not hard, just consider cost to buy and maintain, the storage of fuel and
the noise of the engine to you and to your neighbours.

Only with a steam engine or a gas turbine (?!)

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

That sounds VERY hard, requiring a boiler and steam turbine. Leave that to
the public utilities.

A steam piston engine would work, if you could get hold of (or make)
one.

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax rates.

No they're not. You're thinking of DERV (white diesel) and gas oil
(red diesel). The latter carries no fuel duty and can be legally used
in a generator, though I don't know how difficult it is for an
ordinary joe to get hold of. I expect marine suppliers have it.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

I guess legal but smelly (assuming you mean used oil) with the same noise
issues as fuel oil but also problems with moisture contamination and
corrosion, securing a reliable source and performing whatever filtering and
purification are needed. It may also have problems of solidifying in cold
weather.

You could mix it with diesel in a diesel generator, or use it to fire
a steam engine.

You never asked about LPG/propane which is another possibility. I run a
40kW LPG generator with automatic transfer just as a backup during power
failures in a place where the power does fail all too regularly.

All the same, hardly cheaper than electricity off the grid.

If the OP wants to save money on his electric bill, it's best to do it
by avoiding electric space and water heating, electric cooking, air
conditioning, appliances on standby, battery chargers on all the time,
replace incandescent lamps with fluorescents - IOW all the standard
economy measures.

--
Max Demian

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:04:20 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

On Apr 10, 9:13*am, RobertL wrote:
On Apr 10, 8:52*am, John Nagelson wrote:

Using those fuels for direct heating is another matter. *For
electricity I'd use PV panels, possibly a wind turbine if I lived
somewhere extremely windy.

I used to live off grid on *a boat and did heating by coal and oil and
electricity from PV. Cooking from bottled gas. *You can get oil fired
boilers that do not use any electricty (Kabola for example).

I'll be using solid fuel and maybe also oil for heating.

Very interested in an oil-fired boiler that does not use electricity.
Where does the force come from to work the water pump? Does it include
a small generator to output a current to do this? (I've always thought
that would be a good idea). Or does it do it without involving
electricity at all??

It could work by natural convection of the water, as all central
heating did before the 60s, when water pumps were too noisy. You
needed large diameter pipes and put the boiler low down - often in the
basement.

--
Max Demian

Someone who buys it from Asda's as cooking oil still needs to pay 27.1
pence per litre to the government in tax if they use it as vehicle
fuel:

http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/legal-stuff

John


Out of date website. New regulations came into force 30th June 2007.

John Nagelson wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

What you are considering can only be practical if you can use the heat
produced by the engine, as in a CHP generator. The problem with small
diesel generators, especially cheap ones, is that they tend to be air
cooled and even the water cooled ones run at a low temperature compared
to a boiler. If they run too hot the engine will fail prematurely and
you will need to change the oil frequently.

To use solid fuel in a steam engine would be grossly inefficient
compared to IC engines, and introduced problems with the use of live
steam if you are aiming for the hoghest efficiency. This would need you
to be trained and certified to operate such machinery. I suspect "forget
it" is the better advice here. It would be possible to use a Stirling
engine generator using the flue gasses from a solid fuel fire but AFAIR
the only Stirling engine generators available at the moment work with
natural gas only, cost a lot and provide very low generating capacity,
typically around 1KVA.

There's no practical difference between running an engine on diesel or
kerosene. And if you use a kerosene stationary engine to provide
electricity for your home you can use the same heating oil as is used in
boiler. However you will effectively be throwing away 60%+ of the energy
content of the fuel, whereas a good oil-fired boiler is 90% efficient.

Using cooking oil is possible but may well damage the engine. Only the
manufacturer can tell you. If you want to use cooking oil in winter it
will have to be either heated or converted to biodiesel by
esterifcation. The process is striaghtforward for a chemist but involves
handling large quantities of strong alkali and is not recommended for
amateurs. You would also need "quite a bit" of kit and to register with
HMCE as a fuel producer in order to qualify for the small fuel producer
fuel duty exemption, although since you don't want to use the fuel in a
car they may waive registration. You'd have to ask them.

Don't even think about any of this unless you can think of a way to
scavenge and use the waste heat from the engine. And when it comes to a
generator your sugestion of a small "Honda" diesel is inappropriate. A
true Honda will cost a lot, generators in an open frame sold as "Honda"
often only have a Honda motor and are incredibly noisy, usually greater
than 109dbA. Regulation on these generators is poor, and you will have
to put up with flickering lights even at the best of times. If you
connect or disconnect a significant load (microwave, kettle) you will
bown out for a time then the engine will really start to hammer as it
takes up the load.

If you are doign this the minimum generator capacity you should be
looking at is 6KVA, it would probably be better to consider 12KVA. You
shoudl also consider an alternator/inverter type generator which is
electronically regulated to give a stable voltage to avoid the brownouts
and flickering. You will also need to get a generator with a decent
sound suppression cabinet, which can get the noise level down below
40dBA. This may still be intrusive at night and if you have neighbours
they will complain, and if you don't do something about the noise they
will take it up with the local authority.

If you were au fait with what you intend to do, I suspect you wouldn't
need to ask these questions. I suggest you go and learn some more about
generators, efficiency, noise and CHP issues before you contemplate such
an installation.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:13:41 -0700 (PDT), RobertL wrote:
On Apr 10, 8:52*am, John Nagelson wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?


I'd be amazed if any of these ways of making electriciity was cheaper
than buying it off the grid. I'd also be amazed if any of them was
better for the environment than buying it from the grid. I would
worry about the noise - the continuous humm of even a well silenced
generator is quite wearing for those who live within earshot.

Quite. We have a house that's "on grid" but was "off" for a while a
couple of years ago. To get around the problem we used a 2.5kW petrol
genny.
A back-of-the-enveope calculation at the time showed that the cost of
fuel made our electricity x10 - x14 more expensive than from a commercial
supplier. Although I can't prove it, I am firmly convinced that the
generator was much less efficient than a power station - using any fuel.
It also didn't have any of the scrubbing tech. that commercial power
stations have, or a catalytic convertor - so it emitted a load of
unpleasant stuff into the atmoshpere, apart from the CO2.

There's also the worry about generator failure. If that's your only
source of power, when (not if) it breaks down, or you run out of fuel
than you're stuffed. I would expect that a generator rated for continous
running would be many times more expensive than the ones you get at B&Q.

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

Diesel generators are available that will run on some grades of
paraffin.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

At the size you need, almost impossible.

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Easy to get a diesel generator - I have no idea whether you could
legally run it on red diesel, but it is quite likely that it would be
legal.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

No matter what fuel you use, it will almost certainly cost you more
just in running costs to supply a single domestic dwelling than buying
from an electricity supplier in the normal way. A big problem with a
single genny is that it must be large enough to supply your peak load.
A generator that size is very inefficient most of the day when the
load is low. There are ways to overcome that issue, but the required
equipment is so expensive that it would not save enough to pay for
itself over its expected life.

Other things to consider are cost of servicing and whether you can
install the generator in such a way that its operation 24/7 will not
disturb your neighbours.

For premises that need more electricity than a domestic dwelling,
there are ways to save on cost by *augmenting* the grid from
internally generated power. There are generators that "bolt on" to
the back end of a (very large) gas central heating system to use
energy that would otherwise be wasted, for example. An on-site
generator can also be used to sell surpluss electricity back to the
national grid. This needs arrangements to be made - not least of
which is ensuring that you do not power the grid when the mains has
been isolated by the electricity company so that they can work on the
lines!

In most locations, about the only cost-effective energy you can make
at home is from a solar powered water heater. AFAICS any other scheme
availabe at the present will cost you more than you could hope to
save.

--
Cynic

Cynic (Cynic ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

A big problem with a single genny is that it must be large enough to
supply your peak load. A generator that size is very inefficient most
of the day when the load is low.

Yes, but given...

An on-site generator can also be used
to sell surpluss electricity back to the national grid.

....can the over-size generator not be providing income by selling that
surplus capacity back to the grid? I s'pose it would depend on the exact
cost of generating versus the price paid by the grid as to whether it
would be profitable...

(not quite so) Fat Sam wrote:
Anthony R. Gold wrote:
snip
Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax
rates.

Is that true?

No

Or at least, only in the same sense that diesel and petrol are the same
- y'know, carbon, and hydrogen, and all that - and while a number of
motorists persist in checking the petrol-diesel similarity for
themselves, most conclude it isn't, really.

Derv and gas oil - now you're talking.



--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

On Apr 10, 10:04*am, John Nagelson wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:13*am, RobertL wrote:

On Apr 10, 8:52*am, John Nagelson wrote:
Using those fuels for direct heating is another matter. *For
electricity I'd use PV panels, possibly a wind turbine if I lived
somewhere extremely windy.

I used to live off grid on *a boat and did heating by coal and oil and
electricity from PV. Cooking from bottled gas. *You can get oil fired
boilers that do not use any electricty (Kabola for example).

I'll be using solid fuel and maybe also oil for heating.

Very interested in an oil-fired boiler that does not use electricity.
Where does the force come from to work the water pump? Does it include
a small generator to output a current to do this? (I've always thought
that would be a good idea). Or does it do it without involving
electricity at all??


My boat had a Kabola stove. This burned red diesel and was fed by
gravity - there is a small float chamber with an adjustable needle
valve to control the flow. The oil drips into a thing like a chip pan
where it evaporates abd burns. The radators were fed by gravity
(convenction). I believe yo ucan run it on buring oil or kerosene as
well.

With the Kabola, about half the heat comes out of the boiler itself,
so you should put that in the main room, not in an outhouse. THis is
the one I had:

http://www.kuranda.co.uk/kabola-heat...a-e5-100..html

Robert

On 10 Apr, 09:36, "Anthony R. Gold" wrote:

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax rates.

Diesel has better lubricating properties than kerosene / paraffin. If
you use raw paraffin or heating oil to run a Diesel engine, you'll
kill the injector pump. If you want to make a habit of this, find a
Diesel (such as an ex-Army multi-fuel engine) that uses a separate
lubricating oil supply for the pump, rather than relying on the fuel
to do it.

"Diesel" can be either tax-free (unheard of in practice), agric diesel
(red, cheap tax), boat diesel (blue, slightly cheap tax) or DERV
(Diesel Engine Road Vehicle, clear, full tax).

I can't see any combustion engine self-generation scheme being cost-
effective, compared to Grid. Even if you went for CHP (Combined Heat &
Power) you need to have simultaneous demand for both heat and power to
make it work out.

...can the over-size generator not be providing income by selling that
surplus capacity back to the grid? I s'pose it would depend on the exact
cost of generating versus the price paid by the grid as to whether it
would be profitable...

It wouldn't be. And even if it was, the tariffs would be fixed so it
wouldn't be.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:33:17 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

A big problem with a single genny is that it must be large enough to
supply your peak load. A generator that size is very inefficient most
of the day when the load is low.

Yes, but given...

An on-site generator can also be used
to sell surpluss electricity back to the national grid.

...can the over-size generator not be providing income by selling that
surplus capacity back to the grid? I s'pose it would depend on the exact
cost of generating versus the price paid by the grid as to whether it
would be profitable...

You don't have a hope of generating electricity as cheaply as a large
power station, so you'll be losing money, but it *might* reduce the
overhead of an underloaded genny running 24/7. IIUC the cost of the
equipment needed before you will be permitted to connect your genny to
the grid is pretty high.

A better way is to have a large battery bank that powers the house,
with the generator cutting in automatically when the charge gets below
a set amount and runs just long enough to recharge the batteries. An
invertor with sufficient output to power a house is very expensive, so
are large capacity batteries. Maybe best to do it the old-fashioned
way and use the batteries to power a brushless DC motor that drives an
AC generator rather than using an electronic invertor. The diesel or
paraffin generator would be DC and connected to the batteries via a
charging circuit and battery charge monitor.

For standing batteries you might go for a bank of open lead-acid cells
in a small outbuilding. The plates can be removed from the container
of each cell and replaced separately when needed (the old plates sold
for recycling), and the acid can be filtered and the container cleaned
periodically. The plates would probably last 3 to 5 years between
replacements.

You'll not get the cost down below what you pay for on-grid
electricity though, and using home-generated power should only be
contemplated if you don't have access to a grid supply.

DIY electricity only becomes cost-effective in factories that need
*huge* amounts of power.

--
Cynic

Most of the potential problems in doing this, as highlighted on this
thread, are to do with needing 240VAC.

If you can get by with 12vdc you reduce the cost & complexity
manifold. Genset / Photovoltaics would recharge your battery bank.

Think about it - LCD televisions that use an external 'brick' PSU are
often 12vdc, as are a lot of consumer appliances. Lighting would be a
doddle with LEDs.

What will catch you out are fridge/freezers, washing machines & the
like.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

uk.rec.engines.stationary

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT), Phil
wrote:

Most of the potential problems in doing this, as highlighted on this
thread, are to do with needing 240VAC.

If you can get by with 12vdc you reduce the cost & complexity
manifold. Genset / Photovoltaics would recharge your battery bank.

Think about it - LCD televisions that use an external 'brick' PSU are
often 12vdc, as are a lot of consumer appliances. Lighting would be a
doddle with LEDs.

Lighting is no problem with 12V (though you'll probably have to DIY if
you want LED lighting), but if you look at the output voltage of all
the "bricks" you have, ITYF that the voltages vary greatly from 5V to
24V or even higher. A 12V "brick" is one of the most common, but I'd
be surprised if as many as half of the ones you have are at that
voltage. OTOH low power 12V invertors are cheap enough that you could
buy one for each item that uses a "brick" PSU.

What will catch you out are fridge/freezers, washing machines & the
like.

Yup, and they need a very sizable invertor. Don't go by their rated
power consumption - with many appliances it is the switch-on surge
current required that limits them to needing a *big* invertor. Vacuum
cleaners are also big-power items.

You can buy 12V fridges, freezers and microwave ovens for boats and
caravans, but they are a heck of a price! Small 12V kettles are also
available. You can buy PC PSUs that run from 12V - again many times
the price of the equivalent mains units.

You can also get gas and paraffin fridges and freezers, which would
probably be better than running from 12V.

The battery for a house would probably have to be very sizable if to
want to keep the charge cycle down to an hour or two per day.
Batteries on continuous cycles do not last all that long. Just the
cost of replacing the battery bank every 3 to 5 years is quite likely
more than your electricity bills over the same period!

--
Cynic

On Apr 10, 11:12*am, Mike Ross wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson

wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

uk.rec.engines.stationary

Mike
--http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

Not the least of concerns is fuel storage and leakage from same.
Leaks from tanks and fuel lines have here (Canada) cost householders
in some cases thousands! In many instances not being covered by
homeowners liability insurance.
When 'oil' is used, household insurance premiums can often be higher
if liquid fuel is used because of the potential for leaks.
By certain mandated dates; storage tanks, in most provinces of
Canada, must now have a 'sump' and/or be constructed in such a way
that there is a weir or catchment around them, capable of holding 100%
of the full contents. The catchment device often being integral with
the tank. As a result tanks now cost much more than in the past, are
bigger and more unwieldy etc.
Oil that leaks into the ground can travel long distances and pollute
the property of others. In several instances the excavation s have
been huge and have extended onto other properties at great cost for
restoration! In one case in St. John's Newfoundland, the hole was so
large that the owners built a complete sub-ground basement and
addition to their home in an area that had been an oil soaked parking
lo !
It is understood that in some cases leakage only became apparent when
increasing costs for fuel oil caused homeowners to check the
'quantities' of oil being bought! Thus oil leakage had been going on
for some time!
Electricity produced by water power would seem the 'safest' from an
environmental viewpoint. But then there is usually flooding and water
back up! Sometimes with dire consequences. The next safest being, and
perhaps less polluting, being nuclear? But then there was Chernobyl,
and 3 Mile island etc. etc.
Must go and throw on another bit of wood scrap and plug in the
electric kettle for a cuppa! Maybe the somw will be gone in another
few weeks; maybe by early-mid May!

On Apr 10, 11:12*am, Mike Ross wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson

wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

uk.rec.engines.stationary

Mike
--http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

Not the least of concerns is fuel storage and leakage from same.
Leaks from tanks and fuel lines have here (Canada) cost householders
in some cases thousands! In many instances not being covered by
homeowners liability insurance.
When 'oil' is used, household insurance premiums can often be higher
if liquid fuel is used because of the potential for leaks.
By certain mandated dates; storage tanks, in most provinces of
Canada, must now have a 'sump' and/or be constructed in such a way
that there is a weir or catchment around them, capable of holding
100%
of the full contents. The catchment device often being integral with
the tank. As a result tanks now cost much more than in the past, are
bigger and more unwieldy etc.
Oil that leaks into the ground can travel long distances and pollute
the property of others. In several instances the excavation s have
been huge and have extended onto other properties at great cost for
restoration! In one case in St. John's Newfoundland, the hole was so
large that the owners built a complete sub-ground basement and
addition to their home in an area that had been an oil soaked parking
lot!
It is understood that in some cases leakage only became apparent when
increasing costs for fuel oil caused homeowners to check the
'quantities' of oil being bought! Thus oil leakage had been going on
for some time!
Electricity produced by water power would seem the 'safest' from an
environmental viewpoint. But then there is usually flooding and water
back up! Sometimes with dire consequences. The next safest being, and
perhaps less polluting, being nuclear? But then there was Chernobyl,
and 3 Mile island etc. etc.
Must go and throw on another bit of wood scrap on the wood stove and
plug in the
electric kettle for a cuppa! Maybe the snow will be gone in another
few weeks; maybe by early-mid May!

Cynic, in article js4sv3lj0anbh6iu6sdg87o3ui3fhlu77l@
4ax.com, says...

Lighting is no problem with 12V (though you'll probably have to DIY if
you want LED lighting), but if you look at the output voltage of all
the "bricks" you have, ITYF that the voltages vary greatly from 5V to
24V or even higher. A 12V "brick" is one of the most common, but I'd
be surprised if as many as half of the ones you have are at that
voltage. OTOH low power 12V invertors are cheap enough that you could
buy one for each item that uses a "brick" PSU.

.... and be careful that the device can run off a 12v battery
source, which ranges from some 11v to over 14v from discharged
to charging. "12V" is actually getting quite flat (25-30%)
for lead-acid...

--
JohnW.
Replace the obvious with co.uk in 2 places to mail me.

On 10 Apr, 14:34, Cynic wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT), Phil

wrote:
Most of the potential problems in doing this, as highlighted on this
thread, are to do with needing 240VAC.

If you can get by with 12vdc you reduce the cost & complexity
manifold. Genset / Photovoltaics would recharge your battery bank.

Think about it - LCD televisions that use an external 'brick' PSU are
often 12vdc, as are a lot of consumer appliances. Lighting would be a
doddle with LEDs.

Lighting is no problem with 12V (though you'll probably have to DIY if
you want LED lighting), but if you look at the output voltage of all
the "bricks" you have, ITYF that the voltages vary greatly from 5V to
24V or even higher. *A 12V "brick" is one of the most common, but I'd
be surprised if as many as half of the ones you have are at that
voltage. *OTOH low power 12V invertors are cheap enough that you could
buy one for each item that uses a "brick" PSU.

What will catch you out are fridge/freezers, washing machines & the
like.

Yup, and they need a very sizable invertor. *Don't go by their rated
power consumption - with many appliances it is the switch-on surge
current required that limits them to needing a *big* invertor. *Vacuum
cleaners are also big-power items.

You can buy 12V fridges, freezers and microwave ovens for boats and
caravans, but they are a heck of a price! *Small 12V kettles are also
available. *You can buy PC PSUs that run from 12V - again many times
the price of the equivalent mains units.

You can also get gas and paraffin fridges and freezers, which would
probably be better than running from 12V.

The battery for a house would probably have to be very sizable if to
want to keep the charge cycle down to an hour or two per day.
Batteries on continuous cycles do not last all that long. *Just the
cost of replacing the battery bank every 3 to 5 years is quite likely
more than your electricity bills over the same period!

--
Cynic

Putting the cart before the horse !
If you wanted to go off-grid, what I am saying is that you should
consider designing your house & appliances from the outset to use only
12vdc.

Phil.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

You could run a diesel engine on paraffin mixed with lubricating oil
but I would be concerned about damage to the engine.


2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

Not really practical as it would involve getting a steam engine to
drive the genny


3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

This is the best, if noisiest idea. Get hold of a Lister
Start-o-matic which automatically switches on when a light or power
switch is put on in the house. Contact R. A. Lister & Co of Dursley,
Gloucestershire and find out if they are still available.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

It is both feasable and legal but is a lot of hassle. Diesel oil for
stationary engines has no duty on it and you buy it from a distributor
in bulk. I don't know whether it has VAT or not. It is called Gas
Oil although it is ordinary diesel but dyed red.


Cheers,

john


This is quite normal but unless you use wind power or
hydro-electricity, it is likely to be more expensive than mains. From
a legal point of view, you can generate your electricity from any fuel
you like except, possibly, nuclear energy which is tightly regulated.

I have answered your specific questions above.

On Apr 10, 10:55*am, Max Demian wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

You're thinking of DERV (white diesel) and gas oil
(red diesel). The latter carries no fuel duty and can be legally used
in a generator, though I don't know how difficult it is for an
ordinary joe to get hold of. I expect marine suppliers have it.

Sold at the pump in some agricultural areas in the UK.

If the OP wants to save money on his electric bill, it's best to do it
by avoiding electric space and water heating, electric cooking, air
conditioning, appliances on standby, battery chargers on all the time,
replace incandescent lamps with fluorescents - IOW all the standard
economy measures.

That's not my aim though! :-)

John

On 10 Apr, 15:52, Phil wrote:

If you wanted to go off-grid, what I am saying is that you should
consider designing your house & appliances from the outset to use only
12vdc.

Why only 12V? Go DC by all means, but 48V is easy and even "mains
voltage" DC systems with battery backup are practical, so long as you
know what you're doing ("mains" switches don't like breaking a DC
load). Distributing any sort of useful power at low voltages gets
difficult from the high current, extra losses and extra cabling costs.

If you really are going for Hobbit-technology and building the lot
from recycled car batteries, but a separate battery and automatic
charger into each light fitting and keep the premises wiring at 240V
AC from the genset. You'd be using a bunch of batteries anyway, the
wiring costs make it sensible to distribute them close to the loads.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:57 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

On Apr 10, 10:55*am, Max Demian wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

You're thinking of DERV (white diesel) and gas oil
(red diesel). The latter carries no fuel duty and can be legally used
in a generator, though I don't know how difficult it is for an
ordinary joe to get hold of. I expect marine suppliers have it.

Sold at the pump in some agricultural areas in the UK.

If the OP wants to save money on his electric bill, it's best to do it
by avoiding electric space and water heating, electric cooking, air
conditioning, appliances on standby, battery chargers on all the time,
replace incandescent lamps with fluorescents - IOW all the standard
economy measures.

That's not my aim though! :-)

So what, pray is your aim; or rather your purpose?

We are all dying to know ;-)

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:57 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:

On Apr 10, 10:55 am, Max Demian wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"

wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:52:43 -0700 (PDT), John Nagelson
wrote:
You're thinking of DERV (white diesel) and gas oil
(red diesel). The latter carries no fuel duty and can be legally used
in a generator, though I don't know how difficult it is for an
ordinary joe to get hold of. I expect marine suppliers have it.
Sold at the pump in some agricultural areas in the UK.

If the OP wants to save money on his electric bill, it's best to do it
by avoiding electric space and water heating, electric cooking, air
conditioning, appliances on standby, battery chargers on all the time,
replace incandescent lamps with fluorescents - IOW all the standard
economy measures.
That's not my aim though! :-)

So what, pray is your aim; or rather your purpose?

We are all dying to know ;-)


Couldn't agree more. I suspect half (or more) of the "answers" so far
supplied are of little or no use - but we don't currently know which
half.... :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

John Nagelson wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?


Its virtually the same as red diesel, so a diesel genny is a good thing
to try.

In the power cuts of the 70's the place I worked aty had one..we tried a
ford 2 liter petrol but it couldn't take running at decent power
continuously, and it was swapped for a truck motor. I think about 3-4
litres. Perkins probably.

You probably don't need more than about 10KVAwhich is about 15bhp, so a
small economical diesel around 1 lites and a tad is probably not a bad
choice.

Cut one out of a scrapper car, along with mounts, and hook up to a
generator..you will need to run it at 3000 RPM, which is not a bad rev
range for a diesel.

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

Almost impossible: you need blown boiler steam type plant. Mind you if
you DO put a steam turbine in teh back yard, you can burn all sorts of
stuff on it, but beware. Boilers need stringent sfatey ceks and a lot of
'chimney sweeping'. The main reaoson they vanished from railways was the
super high maintenance.


3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

Buy heating oil.

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

Dunno about legal, but those sorts of oils do bad things to diesel
injectors.

Anorther possibility is a crap small gas turbine out of a small
aircarft. I dont know of anything between 'model jets' and 'fukls size
airfract jets' but there maty in fact be something. If you can use teh
waste heat these aren't a bad bet. In any case whatever you use, pump
any coolant or exhaust stuff into a heat exchanger for hot water and CH
usage.

Cheers,

john

John Nagelson wrote:
On Apr 10, 9:13 am, RobertL wrote:
On Apr 10, 8:52 am, John Nagelson wrote:

Using those fuels for direct heating is another matter. For
electricity I'd use PV panels, possibly a wind turbine if I lived
somewhere extremely windy.

I used to live off grid on a boat and did heating by coal and oil and
electricity from PV. Cooking from bottled gas. You can get oil fired
boilers that do not use any electricty (Kabola for example).

I'll be using solid fuel and maybe also oil for heating.

Very interested in an oil-fired boiler that does not use electricity.
Where does the force come from to work the water pump?

Gravity feed.

Any good range type system - aga or rayburn - adapted for oil will do
space heating very very well with no need for elelctricity, though our
aga does modulate the oil flow between 'high' and 'low' with an electric
themostat.

It also solves most of your cooking needs.


If you use a large bore gravity feed to a hot water tank, that does hot
water as well.

Heating other bits of the house? Well if you have chimneys or put in
steel flues, the solid fuel wood burner stoves are fabulous if you have
access to your own wood supply.

That takes electricity out of the heating/cooking systems completely.

Leaving a lower amount needed for mostly lights, and electronics stuff.

Anthony R. Gold wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:55:39 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:52 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"
wrote:

Diesel and kerosene are essentially the same but with different tax rates.
No they're not. You're thinking of DERV (white diesel) and gas oil
(red diesel). The latter carries no fuel duty and can be legally used
in a generator, though I don't know how difficult it is for an
ordinary joe to get hold of. I expect marine suppliers have it.

Sorry, what I meant was only that the relevant issues of equipment cost,
fuel storage and noise are very much the same.

28 seconds burning kerosene (used for home heating and JetA) and 35 seconds
burning diesel have somewhat different specifications such that kerosene is
less viscous and less prone to freezing at low temperatures but more likely
to vapour lock at higher temperatures. In fact they are sometimes
interchangeable and in cold weather vehicle fuel suppliers often add some
kerosene into their diesel to improve the low temperature performance.

Tony
A certain person I know adds 50% of '28 second' to every 1/2 tank of
diesel he buys.

It runs..smokes a bit.

Cynic wrote:
snip
You can buy 12V fridges, freezers and microwave ovens for boats and
caravans, but they are a heck of a price! Small 12V kettles are also
available. You can buy PC PSUs that run from 12V - again many times
the price of the equivalent mains units.


Surely the PC is the easy part - there are car adaptors for most laptops.

Andy

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:18:31 +0100, Andy Champ
wrote:

Cynic wrote:
snip
You can buy 12V fridges, freezers and microwave ovens for boats and
caravans, but they are a heck of a price! Small 12V kettles are also
available. You can buy PC PSUs that run from 12V - again many times
the price of the equivalent mains units.


Surely the PC is the easy part - there are car adaptors for most laptops.

I was referring to the PSU in a full size PC.

--
Cynic

Peter Lynch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:13:41 -0700 (PDT), RobertL wrote:
On Apr 10, 8:52 am, John Nagelson wrote:
Hello, I am considering taking a house 'off grid', and would be
grateful for help with some of the following questions:

1) how easy is it to run an generator fuelled by PARAFFIN(known in the
US as 'kerosene', i.e. '28sec', the type of oil used in most oil-
powered domestic heating systems in the UK)?

2) how easy is it to get hold of, and run, a generator fuelled by
SOLID FUEL, e.g. coal or wood or both?

3) how easy is it to run a generator fuelled by DIESEL? And surely if
you do, you don't have to pay petrol-station prices? Is there a legal
way to avoid paying the excise?

4) what about running an oil-fuelled generator on cheapo COOKING OIL?
Is this practicable? Is it legal?

I'd be amazed if any of these ways of making electriciity was cheaper
than buying it off the grid. I'd also be amazed if any of them was
better for the environment than buying it from the grid. I would
worry about the noise - the continuous humm of even a well silenced
generator is quite wearing for those who live within earshot.

Quite. We have a house that's "on grid" but was "off" for a while a
couple of years ago. To get around the problem we used a 2.5kW petrol
genny.
A back-of-the-enveope calculation at the time showed that the cost of
fuel made our electricity x10 - x14 more expensive than from a commercial
supplier. Although I can't prove it, I am firmly convinced that the
generator was much less efficient than a power station - using any fuel.

You're right. The efficency of producing electricity in bulk is about
35%, that's higher than the efficiency of an internal combustion engine
alone, nevermind the generator part.

I wonder if you could use a Stirling engine and use that to run a
generator. The Stirling engine can have an efficiency of up to about 80%
and can run on almost any heat source. If you're off the grid maybe you
could park it on top of the aga or something and have the cold cylinder
outside through a wall

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:29:43 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:

A certain person I know adds 50% of '28 second' to every 1/2 tank of
diesel he buys.

I guess that is for fiscal rather that cold climate reasons.

It runs..smokes a bit.

At least it doesn't have any red dye :-)

It has a yellow one though and other "hiiden" markers just like red
diesel. Hope he never gets stopped and dip tested by HMR&C.

--
Cheers
Dave.