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#1
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Well I have finally implemented my DIY Heatbank system, using the
following as a very useful starting point. http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....=DIY_Heat_Bank I have a couple of things of which I am currently uncertain in the fine tuning of my setup: 1) Currently I just have a single cylinder stat which is about 400mm or so from the bottom of the tank. I have read elsewhere regarding the use of 2 cylinder stats and a latching relay. I understand this is to allow the tank to work within a temperature range before the boiler re-fires to prevent cycling. I think I get far more cycling from my CH than from the Heatbank though - which leads on to an additional question below. But first: what height does the 2nd stat go on the tank? How are the 2 stats wired together? Can you buy an off the peg latching relay to do this? If not what components are required? Is it worth doing? 2) The CH does not go via the heatbank; this is currently just for DHW. I have a programmable Horstmann roomstat for the CH, but am very dissapointed at how much cycling this causes. It switches in and out very regularly. Can anyone recommend a better unit? I have seen the Honeywell CM67 highly spoken of, but am not sure whether it is still made; screwfix don't list it. 3) I am aware that CH can also be fed off a heatbank, but am not sure exactly what additional plumbing I'd need to do - would I need new tappings into the tank, or could I just tee of the existing output from the top of the tank and use a flow valve after the CH arm of the tee? Currently the flow from the boiler goes system pump 3port valve - 1 leg to CH flow // 1 leg to top essex flange/diffuser on the cyclinder . 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. The problem originally started when I moved the boiler and pump from the cellar - the flue location did not meet current building regs when the boiler was replaced, so no option but to relocate to 1st floor. Now the pump is obviously much closer to the FHE tank. There is no actual overflow, but hot water is flowing round and back down the fill pipe, which isn't ideal as the tank is acting as a small inefficient plastic radiator in the attic, and causing condensation to boot!! The only way I can prevent it is to close the valve on the fill pipe, once I'm sure the system is devoid of air. This stops the flow around through the tank, effectively making the enclosed, but not unvented as any expansion can still occur up the overflow pipe towards the FHE tank. I don't think running the pump on it's lowest setting is viable - it is a 4 storey house. The boiler and pump (and the heatbank) are all on the 1st floor and heat has to go down 2 storeys and up 1 storey and return obviously, so the pump needs a bit of grunt. What on earth can I do to prevent this occuring? 5) And finally what are the optimum flow and return temps of a condensing boiler - I have a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 24Ri (24kW). I have seen 70/50deg C, but the heatbank needs 75-80degC, so I'd need to go a bit higher than this. If I set the boiler too high, it tends to cut in and out too, even if the system pump is set high, so it's a delicate balance I need to find. ===== For background and if anyone is interested, the following specific info may be a useful addition to what is on the DIY Heatbanks wiki: - The first significant improvement I to the blueprint on the wiki was using a 100kW PHE from GEA which was about £180 incl VAT. - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. The diffusers are 22mm copper tube with a yorkshire end stop soldered on and between 30 and 40 (can't recall exactly now!) 6mm holes carefully drilled and cleaned of swarf as much as poss. The diffuser runs across the full width of the tank from the flange to just short of the the opposite internal side of the cylinder. The bottom flange is 100mm from the bottom of the tank and is tee'd to take the PHE and boiler returns (they actually flow in different directions - check the wiki if that confuses). The top flange is for the boiler flow and is just below the top of the cylinder side, below the join with the dome cap. The holes on the diffuser are oriented to aim sideways and upwards from the top diffuser and sideways and downwards from the bottom to diffuser to preserve stratification in the tank. |
#2
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
1) Currently I just have a single cylinder stat which is about 400mm or so from the bottom of the tank. I have read elsewhere regarding the use of 2 cylinder stats and a latching relay. I understand this is to allow the tank to work within a temperature range before the boiler re-fires to prevent cycling. I think I get far more cycling from my CH than from the Heatbank though - which leads on to an additional question below. But first: what height does the 2nd stat go on the tank? How are the 2 stats wired together? Can you buy an off the peg latching relay to do this? If not what components are required? Is it worth doing? To quote from Heatweb: "With large or fixed output boilers it may not be desirable for the boiler to fire up when only a very small amount of store water needs heating, as the boiler may cycle. To overcome this we can fit a second cylinder thermostat, which will hold off the boiler from firing up until both thermostats are calling for heat. The boiler will then fire until both are satisfied." |
#3
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
On Dec 12, 3:16 pm, " wrote:
1) Currently I just have a single cylinder stat which is about 400mm or so from the bottom of the tank. I have read elsewhere regarding the use of 2 cylinder stats and a latching relay. I understand this is to allow the tank to work within a temperature range before the boiler re-fires to prevent cycling. I think I get far more cycling from my CH than from the Heatbank though - which leads on to an additional question below. But first: what height does the 2nd stat go on the tank? How are the 2 stats wired together? Can you buy an off the peg latching relay to do this? If not what components are required? Is it worth doing? To quote from Heatweb: "With large or fixed output boilers it may not be desirable for the boiler to fire up when only a very small amount of store water needs heating, as the boiler may cycle. To overcome this we can fit a second cylinder thermostat, which will hold off the boiler from firing up until both thermostats are calling for heat. The boiler will then fire until both are satisfied." Yes, I knew that!!! Read the question D'OH |
#4
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
In article
s.com, Mike Holmes writes On Dec 12, 3:16 pm, " wrote: 1) Currently I just have a single cylinder stat which is about 400mm or so from the bottom of the tank. I have read elsewhere regarding the use of 2 cylinder stats and a latching relay. I understand this is to allow the tank to work within a temperature range before the boiler re-fires to prevent cycling. I think I get far more cycling from my CH than from the Heatbank though - which leads on to an additional question below. But first: what height does the 2nd stat go on the tank? How are the 2 stats wired together? Can you buy an off the peg latching relay to do this? If not what components are required? Is it worth doing? To quote from Heatweb: "With large or fixed output boilers it may not be desirable for the boiler to fire up when only a very small amount of store water needs heating, as the boiler may cycle. To overcome this we can fit a second cylinder thermostat, which will hold off the boiler from firing up until both thermostats are calling for heat. The boiler will then fire until both are satisfied." Yes, I knew that!!! Read the question D'OH LOL, I don't know if it is a good idea (the concept sounds ok) but if you want to try it, here's how to do it: No need for a latching relay, use a common double pole mains relay and use the second contact to provide the latch electrically. (Use a fixed width font) ___L | RLY | CONTACT A | __- __-o |----o' o------------------o' o---| | LOW LVL STAT | | __- |-----------------| |----o' o---------| HIGH LVL STAT | _|_ ___L RLY | | | CONTACT B | | | __-o | | |--o' o----------- RLY |___| BOILER COIL | CALL FOR HEAT | _|_ N All contacts are shown in the no demand position, stat contacts open, relay de-energised. Control sequence: 1. Low level stat will close first but cannot energise the relay because there is no direct connection to the coil. 2. High level stat closes, energising the relay and closing contacts A and B. Contact B feeds demand to the boiler. 3. After some time heating the heat bank, the high level stat will drop out but the relay will remain energised as it is now fed from the low level stat via relay contact A. 4. When the low level stat drops out the relay de-energises and demand is removed from the boiler. Almost any 2 pole mains power relay will do the job, first one to hand is from http://cpc.farnell.com/ , item code SW02489, 5.12 inc vat and a screw terminal holder is code SW02484, 3.50 inc vat. Grab a plastic box to mount it in while you're there. It may be possible to use a single pole relay to do this job but it is cleaner to separate the functions and 2 pole mains relays are cheap. HTH -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#5
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Mike Holmes wrote:
1) Currently I just have a single cylinder stat which is about 400mm or so from the bottom of the tank. I have read elsewhere regarding the use of 2 cylinder stats and a latching relay. I understand this is to allow the tank to work within a temperature range before the boiler re-fires to prevent cycling. I think I get far more cycling from my CH than from the Heatbank though - which leads on to an additional question below. But first: what height does the 2nd stat go on the tank? How are the 2 stats wired together? Can you buy an off the peg latching relay to do this? If not what components are required? Is it worth doing? Doing it will increase the hysteresis of the stat a bit, and delay the recovery of the heat bank. Depending on how close you get to depleting the heat bank this may or may not be desirable. 2) The CH does not go via the heatbank; this is currently just for DHW. I have a programmable Horstmann roomstat for the CH, but am very dissapointed at how much cycling this causes. It switches in and out very regularly. Can anyone recommend a better unit? I have seen the Honeywell CM67 highly spoken of, but am not sure whether it is still made; screwfix don't list it. The cycle rate of the state is more an indication of the rate of change of temperature in its current location. Is your in a draft? (I have a Horstmann Centaur stat 7 day programmable jobbie, and don't find that it cycles particularly quickly). 3) I am aware that CH can also be fed off a heatbank, but am not sure exactly what additional plumbing I'd need to do - would I need new tappings into the tank, or could I just tee of the existing output from the top of the tank and use a flow valve after the CH arm of the tee? Currently the flow from the boiler goes system pump 3port valve - 1 leg to CH flow // 1 leg to top essex flange/diffuser on the cyclinder . If you used the existing ones, your would in effect run you rads at a fairly high temperature - a lower top tapping would drop the rad temp a bit and might give more even room temps with less overshoot. This will be at the expense of a slightly longer warm up time from cold. IIUC, your boiler is non modulating, so imposing the heatbank between rads and boiler may reduce cycling a little. (with a boiler that modulates over a wide range this is less desirable since it just complicates the boiler ability to load balance) 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. The problem originally started when "over into" from where? Up the Feed and Expansion pipe, or falling out of the vent pipe? 5) And finally what are the optimum flow and return temps of a condensing boiler - I have a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 24Ri (24kW). I have seen 70/50deg C, but the heatbank needs 75-80degC, so I'd need to go a bit higher than this. If I set the boiler too high, it tends to cut in and out too, even if the system pump is set high, so it's a delicate balance I need to find. Lower return temps are more efficient for the boiler, but you are restricted there by the desire to get sufficient energy into the store. I would have thought with a direct tank, it ought to keep the return temperature reasonably down for a fair proportion of the heating time. Some sticky tape (as a target) and an IR thermometer is handy for tuning here so you can see what is happening with the various pipe temperatures. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#6
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Mike Holmes" wrote in message ... Well I have finally implemented my DIY Heatbank system, using the following as a very useful starting point. http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....=DIY_Heat_Bank I explained a better approach, but you used this one. Ignore the ridiculous electronics. The heat web site has the circuitry of the latching relay. The circuit has been given anyhow on this thread. Can anyone recommend a better unit? The Drayton electronic is fine. 3) I am aware that CH can also be fed off a heatbank, but am not sure exactly what additional plumbing I'd need to do - would I need new tappings into the tank, or could I just tee of the existing output from the top of the tank and use a flow valve after the CH arm of the tee? Currently the flow from the boiler goes system pump 3port valve - 1 leg to CH flow // 1 leg to top essex flange/diffuser on the cylinder . Study the heatweb site. You can use a Surrey flange in the cylinder top and take the CH off the immersed pipe. Best to extend the inner pipe of the flange to the centre of the cylinder. The Ch return to the bottom on the cylinder. The room stat controls the Ch pump. The 3-way valve can go and the boiler "only heats the cylinder directly". 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. Take the cold feed to the DHW port away from the boiler flow influences. One of the reason why I recommended not to use this drawing. 5) And finally what are the optimum flow and return temps of a condensing boiler - I have a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 24Ri (24kW). I have seen 70/50deg C, but the heatbank needs 75-80degC, so I'd need to go a bit higher than this. A DHW only heat bank can operate at 65C, depending on cylinder size. Plate heat exchangers are so efficient at heat transfer. ===== For background and if anyone is interested, the following specific info may be a useful addition to what is on the DIY Heatbanks wiki: - The first significant improvement I to the blueprint on the wiki was using a 100kW PHE from GEA which was about £180 incl VAT. These can be got for £80 to £100. Get a Gledhill one for a Systemate from a dealer. DPS sell them cheaper than that too. The bottom flange is 100mm from the bottom of the tank and is tee'd to take the PHE and boiler returns (they actually flow in different directions - check the wiki if that confuses). Best to have the boiler and PHE returns in separate tapings. A 200 litre cylinder will just about do CH and DHW. It may be worth having circuitry that brings in the boiler immediately when DHW is called (the flow switch activated) and CH is called. This eliminates the lag. When DHW is being called this can be switched out. |
#7
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
John,
Many thanks for the detailed relies - further comments/clarifications below: The cycle rate of the state is more an indication of the rate of change of temperature in its current location. Is your in a draft? Well I hadn't thought so - didn't appreciate it would be so sensitive. It is on the side of the stairs with open ballustrades (where the old room stat was originally), so I guess there may be a slight draft coming down off the edge of the stairs and causing it to cycle (I have a Horstmann Centaur stat 7 day programmable jobbie, and don't find that it cycles particularly quickly). This is exactly the model I have, so that's reassuring that it works well for you. Will have to relocate mine I think. IIUC, your boiler is non modulating, No it's fully modulating - here is the spec: http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...on_id=12370 2 (with a boiler that modulates over a wide range this is less desirable since it just complicates the boiler ability to load balance) Why is that? I'm thinking that because the boiler fully modulates that there shoudln't be a problem with having the boiler set high for the DHW, meaning the return temp would be higher than ideal from the CH, if the boiler DIDN'T modulate. However as my boiler DOES modulate does this mean that even if it's on 100% (which equals 24kW and max flow temp of 82degC) that it will actually modulate down to achieve the ideal return temperature? I think perhaps the problem of my system cutting in and out is possibly purely down to the poor placement of my room stat. 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. "over into" from where? Up the Feed and Expansion pipe, or falling out of the vent pipe? I thought the feed pipe and the expansion pipe were different things and that the expansion is synonymous with the vent pipe. Anyway in your terminology, it is flowing out of the vent pipe and back down the Feed and Expansion pipe. As I said there is no net overflow or actual filling from the mains going on - just a flow through the FHE tank that shouldn't be happening. If I set the boiler too high, it tends to cut in and out too, even if the system pump is set high, so it's a delicate balance I need to find. I would have thought with a direct tank, it ought to keep the return temperature reasonably down for a fair proportion of the heating time. It's OK on the DHW demand as you say, but I'm thinking the CH return will end up being too high, unless the boiler's ability to modulate down gets round this even though the boiler output is set way up. Some sticky tape (as a target) and an IR thermometer is handy for tuning here so you can see what is happening with the various pipe temperatures. The IR thermometer was a bit pricey, so I got a digital one with a probe from screwfix and some thermal paste from maplin to conduct efficiently. Thanks again Mike |
#8
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
DD - thanks for the suggestions esp clarification of plumbing
electrics mods to operate the CH off the heatbank too. Take the cold feed to the DHW port away from the boiler flow influences. One of the reason why I recommended not to use this drawing. This occurred well before I rigged the heatbank - as explained in the OP. A DHW only heat bank can operate at 65C, depending on cylinder size. Plate heat exchangers are so efficient at heat transfer. Perhaps I should try dropping the temperature and see how it performs These can be got for £80 to £100. Get a Gledhill one for a Systemate from a dealer. DPS sell them cheaper than that too. I can't vouch for the Gledhill PHEs, but I quizzed GEA about the DPS PHE, which you may or may not have realised they supply. Personally, what I could find out wasn't conclusive, but I wouldn't trust the data quoted for the PHE on the DPS website. I don't pretend to fully understand the ins and outs of the PHE head load/output calcs, but for the input params I gave GEA their model equivalent to the one marketted through DPS was definitely not 100kW, but needed a bigger beast - the one I now have. Sorry to be a bit vague, I don't have the model no and calculation sheets with me at the moment, so I can't check and include full details. Suffice to say that my PHE is definitely 100kW working under the conditions I supplied GEA. I decided I'd rather spend a bit more and get a PHE that definitely did the job rather than having to upgrade and waste money later on. The bottom flange is 100mm from the bottom of the tank and is tee'd to take the PHE and boiler returns (they actually flow in different directions - check the wiki if that confuses). Best to have the boiler and PHE returns in separate tapings. A 200 litre cylinder will just about do CH and DHW. I don't see any advantage in this - it works fine. When there is a demand for DHW from the PHE primary pump and boiler has demand (ie the system pump is running) the return from the PHE just cariies on straight down the boiler return rather than going through the tank (give or take any differences between the respective pump flows generated - the return tapping into the bottom of the tank will balance the flow at the tee in this scenario, to prevent any resultant presure diffs). It may be worth having circuitry that brings in the boiler immediately when DHW is called (the flow switch activated) and CH is called. This eliminates the lag. When DHW is being called this can be switched out. |
#9
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Mike Holmes wrote:
Many thanks for the detailed relies - further comments/clarifications below: The cycle rate of the state is more an indication of the rate of change of temperature in its current location. Is your in a draft? Well I hadn't thought so - didn't appreciate it would be so sensitive. It is on the side of the stairs with open ballustrades (where the old room stat was originally), so I guess there may be a slight draft coming down off the edge of the stairs and causing it to cycle Pretty much the same place I have mine by the sounds of it. (I have a Horstmann Centaur stat 7 day programmable jobbie, and don't find that it cycles particularly quickly). This is exactly the model I have, so that's reassuring that it works well for you. Will have to relocate mine I think. IIUC, your boiler is non modulating, No it's fully modulating - here is the spec: http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...on_id=12370 2 ah ok, the sedbuk database has it wrong then! (with a boiler that modulates over a wide range this is less desirable since it just complicates the boiler ability to load balance) Why is that? I'm thinking that because the boiler fully modulates that there shoudln't be a problem with having the boiler set high for the DHW, meaning the return temp would be higher than ideal from the CH, if the boiler DIDN'T modulate. However as my boiler DOES modulate does this mean that even if it's on 100% (which equals 24kW and max flow temp of 82degC) that it will actually modulate down to achieve the ideal return temperature? OK, with a modulating boiler that changes things. Usually you set the desired flow temperature, and the boiler will adjust the power input to achieve its desired return temperature, so it should run closer to maximum efficiency for longer. If you stuck the thermal store between boiler and rads then you introduce a big energy store and damper into your closed loop control system. The effect of which will vary depending on the details. It may still work fine, or you might find there is enough phase lag in the control feedback that you get erratic temperature variations. So unless you have a very well insulated house that usually requires significantly less than the minimum 8kW output of the boiler, you will usually get better results letting the boiler drive the rads directly. Note that 8kW is relatively high, so you would expect some cycling whatever you do once the house is up to temperature. I think perhaps the problem of my system cutting in and out is possibly purely down to the poor placement of my room stat. It could well be. How is the temperature control in the rest of the house? Depending on the answer, you might want to play with the balance of the uncontrolled rad in the same room as the stat. I noticed when upgrading from a fixed output boiler with a conventional stat, to a modulating one with prog stat the general level of comfort and consistency in the house improved. The boiler runs for longer periods at low output and there is less temperature swing in the house. 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. "over into" from where? Up the Feed and Expansion pipe, or falling out of the vent pipe? I thought the feed pipe and the expansion pipe were different things and that the expansion is synonymous with the vent pipe. Anyway in No, you have a Feed and Expansion pipe - this will be fed from under the water line in the header tank. It will allow water to feed into the system, as well as allowing expansion to push water back into the tank as the system heats up. In addition to that you have a vent pipe that dispenses back into the top of the tank, and it serves as a safety feature to prevent dangerous pressure build up. Normally nothing should flow from this pipe. It is also possible to have both these pipes combined. In this case the vent runs as it currently does, and the F&E pipe tees into it a couple of feet above the highest part of the system pipework. your terminology, it is flowing out of the vent pipe and back down the Feed and Expansion pipe. As I said there is no net overflow or actual filling from the mains going on - just a flow through the FHE tank that shouldn't be happening. That is pump over, and you are right, it is not good. Not only will the tank contents get very hot, you will also be introducing fresh air into the water which will accelerate corrosion in the system If I set the boiler too high, it tends to cut in and out too, even if the system pump is set high, so it's a delicate balance I need to find. I would have thought with a direct tank, it ought to keep the return temperature reasonably down for a fair proportion of the heating time. It's OK on the DHW demand as you say, but I'm thinking the CH return will end up being too high, unless the boiler's ability to modulate down gets round this even though the boiler output is set way up. The modulation ought to help, but once the house is warm and the TRVs on the rads start to close, the return temp will start to rise. There will come a point where the boiler will have to cycle off on its own internal stat since it won't be able to maintain the output temperature below your selected maximum while still heating at 8kW. Usually in this case the boiler will keep running its pump and then just kick in when the return shows a drop again (assuming the prog stat is still calling for heat). Note that this type of cycling does not have the same inefficiency drawbacks as you would get with an old high water content boiler with external controls and pump. There each time the boiler cycled off the retained heat would end up being lost from the flue. On yours it should keep most of the heat in the primary circuit, and not much is lost from the boiler anyway. Some sticky tape (as a target) and an IR thermometer is handy for tuning here so you can see what is happening with the various pipe temperatures. The IR thermometer was a bit pricey, so I got a digital one with a probe from screwfix and some thermal paste from maplin to conduct efficiently. Yup, that should do it... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#10
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 03:47:38 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
It switches in and out very regularly. The cycle rate of the state is more an indication of the rate of change of temperature in its current location. Or possibly, with a programmable stat, proportional control feature. This is feature where the stat tries to balance the heat loss with heat input from the boiler by pulse width modulating the firing of the boiler. The effect is of "very regular" firing. Not recommended on systems with motorised valves as they have to cycle far more frequently than a traditional bang/bang system. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
#11
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Fred
Many thanks for the guidance on the latching relay circuitry - looks pretty straightforward now I've had a chance to study it a bit. Can anyone recommend approximate placements of the low and high stats on the tank itself Cheers Mike |
#12
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
On 13 Dec, 12:35, Mike Holmes wrote:
John, Many thanks for the detailed relies - further comments/clarifications below: The cycle rate of the state is more an indication of the rate of change of temperature in its current location. Is your in a draft? Well I hadn't thought so - didn't appreciate it would be so sensitive. It is on the side of the stairs with open ballustrades (where the old room stat was originally), so I guess there may be a slight draft coming down off the edge of the stairs and causing it to cycle (I have a Horstmann Centaur stat 7 day programmable jobbie, and don't find that it cycles particularly quickly). This is exactly the model I have, so that's reassuring that it works well for you. Will have to relocate mine I think. IIUC, your boiler is non modulating, No it's fully modulating - here is the spec: http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ind...roduct.techdat... (with a boiler that modulates over a wide range this is less desirable since it just complicates the boiler ability to load balance) Why is that? I'm thinking that because the boiler fully modulates that there shoudln't be a problem with having the boiler set high for the DHW, meaning the return temp would be higher than ideal from the CH, if the boiler DIDN'T modulate. However as my boiler DOES modulate does this mean that even if it's on 100% (which equals 24kW and max flow temp of 82degC) that it will actually modulate down to achieve the ideal return temperature? I think perhaps the problem of my system cutting in and out is possibly purely down to the poor placement of my room stat. 4) One curious thing I have noticed whilst becoming more intimate with my system is that when the system pump is running a trickle of water is coming over into the FHE tank. "over into" from where? Up the Feed and Expansion pipe, or falling out of the vent pipe? I thought the feed pipe and the expansion pipe were different things and that the expansion is synonymous with the vent pipe. Anyway in your terminology, it is flowing out of the vent pipe and back down the Feed and Expansion pipe. As I said there is no net overflow or actual filling from the mains going on - just a flow through the FHE tank that shouldn't be happening. If I set the boiler too high, it tends to cut in and out too, even if the system pump is set high, so it's a delicate balance I need to find. I would have thought with a direct tank, it ought to keep the return temperature reasonably down for a fair proportion of the heating time. It's OK on the DHW demand as you say, but I'm thinking the CH return will end up being too high, unless the boiler's ability to modulate down gets round this even though the boiler output is set way up. Some sticky tape (as a target) and an IR thermometer is handy for tuning here so you can see what is happening with the various pipe temperatures. The IR thermometer was a bit pricey, so I got a digital one with a probe from screwfix and some thermal paste from maplin to conduct efficiently. Thanks again Mike You didn't try Ebay then for your IR Thermometer ? A tenner (from HK !!) and seems excellent. Rob |
#13
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
- The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. *I
have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. *I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. *The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. *I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my own heatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg ..but it still comes in expensive!! If you have plenty of time on your hands, you can read my thread at http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=63364 Couple of questions, 1.Where did you get your cylinder from and approx what price? 2. Where the essex flanges straight forward enough to fit? 3. What cylinder stats did you use and where these external or pocket type? 4.Have you or do you intend to run Ch from heatbank or leave as is? Cheers Ian |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote in message ... - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my own heatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Nice!!! Have the open vent to the F&E tank separate to the flow to the Plate heat exchnmager or use a Surrey flange at this point. |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
On Jan 1, 11:52*pm, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
wrote in message ... - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my ownheatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was:http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Nice!!! Have the open vent to the F&E tank separate to the flow to the Plate heat exchnmager or use a Surrey flange at this point. That is supposed to be a surrey flange on top, forgot to indicate. Think you were part of the original screwfix thread and provided a great deal of input so credit mainly to you!! Just need to source a cheap 200L direct cylinder and find out if it is straight forward enough to fit essex flanges. (I generally fit basic kitchens and bathroom suites for housing associations so basic plumbing OK. Used Surrey flanges before but never Essex which obviously means cutting a hole in new cylinder! |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote in message ... - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my own heatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Put the check valves on the CH circuits "after" the pumps. |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net... wrote in message ... - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my own heatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Advantages over (say) a combi would seem to be flow rate but the biggest combi advantage is infinite capacity (at whatever flow rate one can argue they deliver). Web sites for thermal stores don't seem to quote capacity of drawn off hot water. Let's say (hypothetically) one has a thermal store with a tank of water of 300l at 80degC and a plate heat exchanger set to deliver DHW at 65degC. At a flow rate of (say) 30l/min, how long does the hot water last (at that flow rate, boiler heating will be too slow to be significant). Or, in non scientific units, how many full baths can you run one after the other? I should be able to work it out,from the physics I guess, but someone should know!! -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Bob Mannix" wrote in message ... "Doctor Drivel" wrote in message reenews.net... wrote in message ... - The second improvement is diffuser pipes within the cylinder. I have a c200litre direct tank [1700x500(dia) mm] double insulated. I had the tank made to spec to fit the space I have available with a single top port - a standard BSP 1" male connector. The top connector takes the flow to the PHE primary and is tee'd off to the FHE tank overflow. I added 2 essex flanges myself through which I passed my own diffuser tubes prior to assembley of the flanges into the tank. Hi, very interested in this thread. As wanted to build my own heatbank too. Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Advantages over (say) a combi would seem to be flow rate but the biggest combi advantage is infinite capacity (at whatever flow rate one can argue they deliver). This heat bank system has many advantages. Look at the flow pipe from the boiler into the cylidner. Take this pipe inside the cylinder and bend it up towarads the DHW draw-off at the top, terminating inside the dome pointing up. The flow would be sucked into the plate heat X by the DHW pump. When the store is exhausted of heat the flow rate will revert to what the boiler can give, which will be a good shower at least and "never" run out of hot water. This principle is applied to stored water combis which are two stage: high flow using stored water and low rate using only the ouput of the boilers burner. You could use the flow switch to always bring in the boiler always when DHW is called. This "combines" the output of the boiler and the heat of the stored water, giving greater capacity - or the cyldiner culd be dopwnsized using this method. A high limit stat would need to be on the cylinder to cut out the boiler if the temperature was above 95C. The diagram uses two CH zones off the store using Wilo Smart pumps. This is a great advantage, as only 0.5 kW will be drawn-off if need be. All rads can then have TRVs on them. This increases comfort conditions. The boiler only heats the store so running without cycling and to maximum effciency and flow throught it at all times. One of the big problems with boilers fitted these days, is that the auto-by-pass is incorrectly set, allowing too much flow through a condensing boiler reducing its efficiency or in many cases too little flow and reducing the lifespan of the heat exchanger. A boiler heating a store has no such problems and will outlast boilers coupled directly to rads with TRVs on the rads. Also a simple, cheaper, more reliable non-modulating boiler can be fitted. Web sites for thermal stores don't seem to quote capacity of drawn off hot water. Let's say (hypothetically) one has a thermal store with a tank of water of 300l at 80degC and a plate heat exchanger set to deliver DHW at 65degC. At a flow rate of (say) 30l/min, how long does the hot water last (at that flow rate, boiler heating will be too slow to be significant). Or, in non scientific units, how many full baths can you run one after the other? I should be able to work it out,from the physics I guess, but someone should know!! Later... |
#19
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Bob Mannix wrote:
Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store. Advantages over (say) a combi would seem to be flow rate but the biggest combi advantage is infinite capacity (at whatever flow rate one can argue they deliver). That is not really any different with a store - at some point once you have used any stored heat, the rate at which you can draw further heat from it will be governed by how fast the boiler can replenish it. However this will equate to a significant drop in delivery rate since you can draw energy from the store at a rate well above that which you can get from your gas supply. Web sites for thermal stores don't seem to quote capacity of drawn off hot water. Let's say (hypothetically) one has a thermal store with a tank of water of 300l at 80degC and a plate heat exchanger set to deliver DHW at 65degC. At a flow rate of (say) 30l/min, how long does the hot water last Say you are drawing 30lpm of water at 60 deg that is being heated from (say) 5 deg, you require a heating power of (60 - 5) x 4200 x 30 / 60 = 115.5 kW (at that flow rate, boiler heating will be too slow to be significant). Or, Not necessarily... if the boiler is kicked in by a flow switch at the start of the draw off, a 20kW boiler would be replacing a 5th of the energy used in real time. So you reduce the effective energy transfer rate from the store to 95.5 kW in non scientific units, how many full baths can you run one after the other? I should be able to work it out,from the physics I guess, but someone should know!! Lets say you want 200L of 45 deg water for the bath, that means you want 145 l of hot water. It will take 4.8 mins to fill the bath. You have had 33.5MJ out of the store, so at say 20kW (1.2 MJ/min) input it will take about half an hour to replenish fully. So you can have baths every half hour indefinitely, or faster for a limited time. Obviously smaller baths and more powerful boilers can change that picture dramatically. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message
... Bob Mannix wrote: Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store. Advantages over (say) a combi would seem to be flow rate but the biggest combi advantage is infinite capacity (at whatever flow rate one can argue they deliver). That is not really any different with a store - at some point once you have used any stored heat, the rate at which you can draw further heat from it will be governed by how fast the boiler can replenish it. However this will equate to a significant drop in delivery rate since you can draw energy from the store at a rate well above that which you can get from your gas supply. Web sites for thermal stores don't seem to quote capacity of drawn off hot water. Let's say (hypothetically) one has a thermal store with a tank of water of 300l at 80degC and a plate heat exchanger set to deliver DHW at 65degC. At a flow rate of (say) 30l/min, how long does the hot water last Say you are drawing 30lpm of water at 60 deg that is being heated from (say) 5 deg, you require a heating power of (60 - 5) x 4200 x 30 / 60 = 115.5 kW (at that flow rate, boiler heating will be too slow to be significant). Or, Not necessarily... if the boiler is kicked in by a flow switch at the start of the draw off, a 20kW boiler would be replacing a 5th of the energy used in real time. So you reduce the effective energy transfer rate from the store to 95.5 kW in non scientific units, how many full baths can you run one after the other? I should be able to work it out,from the physics I guess, but someone should know!! Lets say you want 200L of 45 deg water for the bath, that means you want 145 l of hot water. It will take 4.8 mins to fill the bath. You have had 33.5MJ out of the store, so at say 20kW (1.2 MJ/min) input it will take about half an hour to replenish fully. So you can have baths every half hour indefinitely, or faster for a limited time. Obviously smaller baths and more powerful boilers can change that picture dramatically. Thanks for the calcs- surely it may be slightly better than that though. The requirement for 145l of hot water might be met twice over by a store (depending on its size) so one might get 2 baths then wait an hour, which is, of course the same on average, but practically may be a lot better! It was the gearing between the size of the store and DHW run-off I was looking for. Looking at the websites on the PHE, for 80degC store, it would seem that 150l flow of hot water out of the PHE would need about 100l of water from the store flowing into it - a 210l or above store would then give two baths (roughly) before the system is cold (ie not able to perform at full spec). Does this sound right? -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Bob Mannix wrote:
in non scientific units, how many full baths can you run one after the other? I should be able to work it out,from the physics I guess, but someone should know!! Lets say you want 200L of 45 deg water for the bath, that means you want 145 l of hot water. It will take 4.8 mins to fill the bath. You have had 33.5MJ out of the store, so at say 20kW (1.2 MJ/min) input it will take about half an hour to replenish fully. So you can have baths every half hour indefinitely, or faster for a limited time. Obviously smaller baths and more powerful boilers can change that picture dramatically. Thanks for the calcs- surely it may be slightly better than that though. The requirement for 145l of hot water might be met twice over by a store (depending on its size) so one might get 2 baths then wait an hour, which is, of course the same on average, but practically may be a lot better! It Yup, that is what I meant by "every half hour indefinitely, or faster for a limited time" ;-) Although looking again at the figures - you probably can't draw that much energy out of the store without it impacting the final water temp a little toward the end... that 33.5MJ would represent a 26.5 degree store temperature drop without any replenishment. With 20kW going back in that would be a 22 degree drop. So the last bit of the bath fill would start to cool very slightly. If you were sticking 35kW back in then you would only see a 16 degree drop in the store and output temp would be unaffected. was the gearing between the size of the store and DHW run-off I was looking for. Looking at the websites on the PHE, for 80degC store, it would seem Well if you allow a couple of degrees from loss on the PHE, then that 18 degree difference represents (so 300 * 4200 * 18 = 22.7MJ) of energy. Once you have drawn that and without any replenishment then the output temp from the PHE will start to fall below 60. That equates to about 100l of drawn water. that 150l flow of hot water out of the PHE would need about 100l of water from the store flowing into it - a 210l or above store would then give two baths (roughly) before the system is cold (ie not able to perform at full spec). Does this sound right? Not quite - you can't usefully get all of the energy out of the store unless you can accept a lower final water temperature. If you say that the minimum useful temperature of the store water is 50 degrees (to allow draw off at say 48 deg), and the maximum store temp is 80, then you have 30 x 4200 x 300 = 37.8 MJ for water heating with a 300l store. With ground water at 5 degs (i.e. worst case in the winter) and a bath at 45 final temperature, that gives you no more than 300 / 40 x 30 = 225 l of hot water without replenishment. So with the boiler running, you can probably just squeeze two deep baths in quick succession out of the store. You would also need to adjust taps from time to time to allow for the falling hot water temperature. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
But surely as the boiler is supplying to the top of the cylinder
rather than further down, (and perhaps boiler is better connected using a surrey flange at top of cylinder), the output of the boiler is mainly going straight to the PHE. Therefore, although flow rate may have to be adjusted, you could continue to fill baths infinitely. This would act like a combi so would just take a bit longer to fill. On the point of........ "Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store" This is something I'm struggling with as boiler is new condensing. |
#23
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Bob Mannix wrote: Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store. Chav, please be quiet and do not comment on things you know sweet FA about. |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote in message ... But surely as the boiler is supplying to the top of the cylinder rather than further down, (and perhaps boiler is better connected using a surrey flange at top of cylinder), the output of the boiler is mainly going straight to the PHE. Therefore, although flow rate may have to be adjusted, you could continue to fill baths infinitely. This would act like a combi so would just take a bit longer to fill. On the point of........ "Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store" This is something I'm struggling with as boiler is new condensing. Not a problem. The bottom of the store will be quite cool and condensing will occur most of boiler run time. Most boilers only modulate to about 7 to 8 kW minimum. Lower than that and boioer cycling occurs. Taking the CH off the store means that only 0.5 kW can be drawn off the store and no boiler cycling. Then no auto-by -passes that can affect the boiler, centralised room stats that cut out the boiler when some rooms may need heat, etc. When a boiler is heating rads directly with all rads except one with TRVs and an auto by-pass fitted, when all or most TRVs close up the auto by-pass opens up and hot water flows back to the boiler, then the boioer efficiency drops like a stone. |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Bob Mannix wrote: Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store. Chav, please be quiet and do not comment on things you know sweet FA about. LOL!, one could suggest you do the same. You have demonstrated many times that your lack of grasp of control theory, surpasses even your famously poor grasp of basic physics. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Doctor Drivel wrote: "John Rumm" wrote in message ... Bob Mannix wrote: Latest diagram I came up with was: http://aycu27.webshots.com/image/387...2625313_rs.jpg Also interested as it seems an excellent post-fix to a system with a newish boiler. Depending on the sophistication of the boiler and control systems you may get better results with the rads driven directly rather than from the store. Chav, please be quiet and do not comment on things you know sweet FA about. LOL!, Chav, the man has come here for advice. There are people here who know this field backwards and their experience does not entail fitting one combi. Please be quiet and do not comment on things you know sweet FA about. |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message This is what happened when know-it-alls think they do actually know something. I note on your schematic you had a blending valve on the boilers return. Presumably to maintain a minimum return temperature. While this is common practice where one wants to prevent an older design of boiler from seeing excessive periods of low return temperatures, Chav, it is to maintain a high flow temperature into the thermal store for DHW purposes. The CH section of the cylinder need not have the return blending valve on the flow/return. It also keeps the boiler within its delta T ensuring correct operation and longevity of the heat exchanger.. it would be counter productive on a condensing boiler since there is no requirement to maintain a minimum return temperature. There is a requirement to maintain a Deta T on all boilers Artificially raising the apparent return temperature when cooler water is available would just lower the boilers condensing efficiency. DHW has to be....well hot. And there is no getting away from the fact that the return temp will rise to create DHW. The Blending valve may be set to 50C with a boiler giving a 25C temperature rise. Many stores may run at 70C comfortably as plate Heat Xs are so efficient. That is a return temp of 45C, which is very efficient. If you have a high end "smart" boiler with analogue room temp sensing or external weather compensation, then you would loose the ability to run very low flow temperatures through the rads during the milder parts of the year. No boiler modulates very low and they all cycle. He can fit a weather compensator to the CH section of the cylinder and lower and raise that water body to maintain outside weather influence and this will result in very low return boiler temperatures being created. snip a load of ill-informed crap!!! |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Doctor Drivel wrote:
a load of ill-informed crap!!! Par for the course... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
I note on your schematic you had a blending valve on the boilers return.
Presumably to maintain a minimum return temperature. While this is common practice where one wants to prevent an older design of boiler from seeing excessive periods of low return temperatures, it would be counter productive on a condensing boiler since there is no requirement to maintain a minimum return temperature. Artificially raising the apparent return temperature when cooler water is available would just lower the boilers condensing efficiency. *It also adds an extra tapping to the top of the tank and associated pipework. Blending valve added as it was suggested on the original thread that the temperature difference between the boiler flow and return should be around the 20 deg mark to allow optimum condensing. To be fair, when I asked DPS for a quote, they included a blending valve too on their spec. In fact they said it should be a 28mm version for boilers of 20KW as the internal parts on a 22mm were too small. If you have a high end "smart" boiler with analogue room temp sensing or external weather compensation, then you would loose the ability to run very low flow temperatures through the rads during the milder parts of the year. The presence of a big energy store between the boiler and rads can also affect the performance of the boilers control system since it introduces a big damping and delaying effect - possibly leading to unexpected fluctuation of the store temp in response to changing heating loads, and hence reduction in performance on hot water delivery. You also incur the cost of the two extra pumps for these circuits. It was considered better to use pumps rather than zoning valves due to reliability. In all honesty, I just want a good mains presure system that will supply enough hot water for 2 showers running at once, where I don't have to wait 30min+ to refill a bath and that ideally gives me 2 zones(upstairs and downstairs). I have a new 28KW condensing system boiler and now need a cylinder. Don't want to pay £1300+ from DPS for same design as you see here (and that's kit form and no metal casing round the copper cylinder to make it look pretty either !) and don't want an unvented. Had liked the idea of CH off the store but really only due to the fact that the contents of the store could be dumped into the rads for instant heat.If I could get something for around £800 I think I'd be happy!!! |
#31
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote:
I note on your schematic you had a blending valve on the boilers return. Presumably to maintain a minimum return temperature. While this is common practice where one wants to prevent an older design of boiler from seeing excessive periods of low return temperatures, it would be counter productive on a condensing boiler since there is no requirement to maintain a minimum return temperature. Artificially raising the apparent return temperature when cooler water is available would just lower the boilers condensing efficiency. It also adds an extra tapping to the top of the tank and associated pipework. Blending valve added as it was suggested on the original thread that the temperature difference between the boiler flow and return should be around the 20 deg mark to allow optimum condensing. To be fair, when I asked DPS for a quote, they included a blending valve too on their spec. In fact they said it should be a 28mm version for boilers of 20KW as the internal parts on a 22mm were too small. Yup, that I what I thought it looked like they were trying to do... It makes good sense on a fixed output boiler, and especially on a non condenser. Not so sure it adds much with a condenser that will modulate to lower return temperatures, and will give best condensing performance with the lowest return temperature available.... As an aside, have you considered using a indirect store with a fast recovery coil carrying the primary heating water? That would allow the use of a sealed system primary to drive the rads and the store. Would do away with the header tank as well. You could then have a quite simple system that would also provide the hot water performance you want without needing an unvented cylinder. It was considered better to use pumps rather than zoning valves due to reliability. Simple two port valves seem quite reliable if exercised from time to time during the summer... In all honesty, I just want a good mains presure system that will supply enough hot water for 2 showers running at once, where I don't have to wait 30min+ to refill a bath and that ideally gives me 2 zones(upstairs and downstairs). I have a new 28KW condensing system Yup, makes sense. Since you have the modern boiler, and I take it you have enough cold mains flow rate available, I would be inclined to leave the rads driven directly by the boiler (in their own zones). With a prog stat per zone and TMVs on the rads you are going to end up with pretty good efficiency and performance anyway on the space heating. Even if the boiler does cycle a little when the house is warmed up, that is far less of an issue with modern low water content boilers. boiler and now need a cylinder. Don't want to pay £1300+ from DPS for same design as you see here (and that's kit form and no metal casing round the copper cylinder to make it look pretty either !) and don't want an unvented. Had liked the idea of CH off the store but really only due to the fact that the contents of the store could be dumped into the rads for instant heat.If I could get something for around £800 I think I'd be happy!!! Its easy to end up adding more and more complexity to these solutions and before long the parts bill alone is scary (something you have to watch with Dr. Dribble's designs - they soon end up with half the contents of the BES catalogue used in there somewhere!) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#32
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
As an aside, have you considered using a indirect store with a fast recovery coil carrying the primary heating water? That would allow the use of a sealed system primary to drive the rads and the store. I have considered using another PHE to heat the store(particularly as my boiler is ideally supposed to work on sealled systems but will apparently work on vented if pressure sensor is disconnected). Thought this better than coil as can be cleaned easily if necessary. Also I assume order of efficiency is coil,PHE and best is heat store direct. Would do away with the header tank as well. You could then have a quite simple system that would also provide the hot water performance you want without needing an unvented cylinder. Wouldn't I still need the tank as a) stored water will still expand b) stored water will need topping up from time to time? |
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message
... wrote: Yup, that I what I thought it looked like they were trying to do... It makes good sense on a fixed output boiler, and especially on a non condenser. Not so sure it adds much with a condenser that will modulate to lower return temperatures, Chav, you really haven't a clue, even after an explanation. It guarantees the highest temperature set so only very hot water enters the store at the top of the cylinder ready for use to give useful DHW, even after 2 minutes of running from cold a sink can be filled. It also guarantees the boiler is operating within its delta T and maximises thermal expansion. It guarantees top down heating of the store and the water is heater one pass of the boiler quickening the re-heat. It also increases boiler longevity as the boiler is operating in an ideal hydraulic environment. snip ill-informed tripe It was considered better to use pumps rather than zoning valves due to reliability. Simple two port valves seem quite reliable if exercised from time to time during the summer... Again the ignorance abounds. Having the two pumps means the CH zones are fully independent (one has no effect on the other which is not the case when using one pumps and zone valves) of each other as they both go back to the neutral point - the store - which means superior balancing of rads and that two smart pumps may be used using TRVs on "all" rads. Also the pumps can inject even 0.25 kW into their respective CH zones, increasing comfort. In all honesty, I just want a good mains presure system that will supply enough hot water for 2 showers running at once, where I don't have to wait 30min+ to refill a bath and that ideally gives me 2 zones(upstairs and downstairs). I have a new 28KW condensing system Yup, makes sense. Since you have the modern boiler, and I take it you have enough cold mains flow rate available, I would be inclined to leave the rads driven directly by the boiler (in their own zones). That is because you know sweet FA about thermal storage and heating systems. With a prog stat per zone and TMVs on the rads you are going to end up with pretty good efficiency and performance anyway on the space heating. Even if the boiler does cycle a little when the house is warmed up, that is far less of an issue with modern low water content boilers. The boiler still cycles, and the auto by-pass will eventually restrict flow through the boiler as it wears or open up too early and elinminates condensing as a direct short cut is created. boiler and now need a cylinder. Don't want to pay £1300+ from DPS for same design as you see here (and that's kit form and no metal casing round the copper cylinder to make it look pretty either !) and don't want an unvented. Had liked the idea of CH off the store but really only due to the fact that the contents of the store could be dumped into the rads for instant heat.If I could get something for around £800 I think I'd be happy!!! Having the CH zones off the store is a great bonus. Having the boiler only heat the heat bank cylinder is great bonus. The store is a great neutral point. Each function of the system can be isolated and optimised and one does not influence the other. The boiler is de-coupled and optimised for performance. As are the CH zones, as is the DHW take off too. The boiler can be optimised for condensing efficiency - heat bank setpoint of 70C and return temperature of 45C. This means the boiler condenses the vast majority of run time and operates in an ideal hydraulic environment. Forget all this tripe that a modulating boiler is the best option coupled to rads. It may be if it modulates from 0kW to 27kW and no TRVs on the rads. As no boiler goes down to 0kW that will not happen. The auto by-pass screws up efficiency performance and the cycling reduces reliability putting heavier demand on controls. The auto by-pass can screw up the heat exchanger is not enough flow is allowed through the rad. Most of the time a boiler is on part load, and this means a lot of the time the auto by-pass valve is open eliminating condensing competely with efficiency dropping like a stone. snip ill-informed tripe by Chav! |
#34
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote in message ... I have considered using another PHE to heat the store (particularly as my boiler is ideally supposed to work on sealled systems but will apparently work on vented if pressure sensor is disconnected). I assume you mean the low pressure sensor. See this: http://www.copperform.co.uk/mains_pr...flow/index.htm This is a pressurised store running at 2.5 bar, so the boiler will operate fine. Can be DIYed using plate heat Xs. They may make one to order without the coil and insert the tapping where you want. Thought this better than coil as can be cleaned easily if necessary. Also I assume order of efficiency is coil,PHE and best is heat store direct. I think you mean in reverse order. The coil is way less efficient than a plate heat X. Direct is the ultimate. |
#35
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message reenews.net... "John Rumm" wrote in message ... wrote: Yup, that I what I thought it looked like they were trying to do... It makes good sense on a fixed output boiler, and especially on a non condenser. Not so sure it adds much with a condenser that will modulate to lower return temperatures, Chav, you really haven't a clue, even after an explanation. It guarantees the highest temperature set so only very hot water enters the store at the top of the cylinder ready for use to give useful DHW, even after 2 minutes of running from cold a sink can be filled. It also guarantees the boiler is operating within its delta T and maximises thermal expansion. It guarantees top down heating of the store and the water is heater one pass of the boiler quickening the re-heat. It also increases boiler longevity as the boiler is operating in an ideal hydraulic environment. ["Chav" is a stupid and judgemental term and I do not wish to be asscoiated with it.] On the other hand, DD's explanation for the blending valve seems plain common sense and was part of my assumption. Also these thermal store systems only work well (high hot water flow) if the primary side of the PHE (and hence the store itself) is at a very high temperature (75-90degC). This can only be achieved by subtracting the boiler's maximum delta-T from the desired temperature and ensuring the answer is used as the set point for the return water. The condensing efficiency argument is irrelevant as the whole system won't work without the higher than normal return temperature. -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
#36
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
wrote:
As an aside, have you considered using a indirect store with a fast recovery coil carrying the primary heating water? That would allow the use of a sealed system primary to drive the rads and the store. I have considered using another PHE to heat the store(particularly as my boiler is ideally supposed to work on sealled systems but will apparently work on vented if pressure sensor is disconnected). Thought this better than coil as can be cleaned easily if necessary. Also I assume order of efficiency is coil,PHE and best is heat store direct. Another PHE would do the trick quite nicely. While these are not cheap, you would not need such a large one for this application since the boiler power is the limiting factor here. You may even save equal or more money by not needing an expensive cylinder with fast recovery coil. (any direct tank could be used). Water to water PHEs are quite efficient so you would not loose much if anything over pumping the primary through a direct store. Would do away with the header tank as well. You could then have a quite simple system that would also provide the hot water performance you want without needing an unvented cylinder. Wouldn't I still need the tank as a) stored water will still expand Your system boiler will already include an expansion vessel designed to cope with the expansion of the primary circuit. The water in the store itself will also expand and contract, but this does not need to be hermetically sealed and can have a small expansion gap at the top (assuming your pumped PHE connections are via side tappings on Essex flanges). b) stored water will need topping up from time to time? It can be filled from a hose (or suitably positioned fixed pipework and tap of some sort). The only route of water loss from it will be via evaporation. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#37
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Bob Mannix" wrote in message ... "Doctor Drivel" wrote in message reenews.net... "John Rumm" wrote in message ... wrote: Yup, that I what I thought it looked like they were trying to do... It makes good sense on a fixed output boiler, and especially on a non condenser. Not so sure it adds much with a condenser that will modulate to lower return temperatures, Chav, you really haven't a clue, even after an explanation. It guarantees the highest temperature set so only very hot water enters the store at the top of the cylinder ready for use to give useful DHW, even after 2 minutes of running from cold a sink can be filled. It also guarantees the boiler is operating within its delta T and maximises thermal expansion. It guarantees top down heating of the store and the water is heater one pass of the boiler quickening the re-heat. It also increases boiler longevity as the boiler is operating in an ideal hydraulic environment. ["Chav" is a stupid and judgemental term and I do not wish to be asscoiated with it.] A Chav is a Chav and he is one. And like you I want nothing to do with them. All those tattoos and heavy jewellery! On the other hand, DD's explanation for the blending valve seems plain common sense and was part of my assumption. Also these thermal store systems only work well (high hot water flow) if the primary side of the PHE (and hence the store itself) is at a very high temperature (75-90degC). Nope. Plate heat exchangers are so efficient (and some are better than others, like the Danfoss two-pass and the Swep used by Gledhill), that a store temperature of 65C can be set and they will give more than adequate DHW. The higher the temperature the more energy stored and the smaller the cylinder, the lower the temp the larger the water store. The condensing efficiency argument is irrelevant as the whole system won't work without the higher than normal return temperature. More old wives tales. A longish cylinder ensures that the bottom of the cylinder has "very" low temperatures - superior stratification. Plate heat Xs are so efficient at extracting heat the return temperature from them will be 30C and below. Thermal stores using an immersed coil DHW take off require higher temperatures because the coils are so inefficient to a plate heat OX. A well designed CH & DHW heat bank knocks cobs off a direct to the rads boiler CH system. They are very efficient and highly reliable. The design presented is a good one. If the points I suggested to improve are implemented and the CH section heated direct not via a return blending valve (a 3-way diverter valve is needed) a weather compensator controlling in the water temperature in the CH section of the store the efficiency will be "very" high. Heat bank - plate heat X DHW thermals store = immersed coil DHW |
#38
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... wrote: As an aside, have you considered using a indirect store with a fast recovery coil carrying the primary heating water? That would allow the use of a sealed system primary to drive the rads and the store. I have considered using another PHE to heat the store(particularly as my boiler is ideally supposed to work on sealled systems but will apparently work on vented if pressure sensor is disconnected). Thought this better than coil as can be cleaned easily if necessary. Also I assume order of efficiency is coil,PHE and best is heat store direct. Another PHE would do the trick quite nicely. While these are not cheap, you would not need such a large one for this application since the boiler power is the limiting factor here. You may even save equal or more money by not needing an expensive cylinder with fast recovery coil. (any direct tank could be used). Water to water PHEs are quite efficient so you would not loose much if anything over pumping the primary through a direct store. It is cheaper, far more efficient in economy, and far quicker using a plate heat X and bronze pump heating up a large direct cylinder. 95% plus of the boilers heat is extracted via the plate and put into the fresh water in the cylinder. Here is an off-the-shelf model: http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com/products/plateflow.htm Would do away with the header tank as well. You could then have a quite simple system that would also provide the hot water performance you want without needing an unvented cylinder. Wouldn't I still need the tank as a) stored water will still expand Your system boiler will already include an expansion vessel designed to cope with the expansion of the primary circuit. The water in the store itself will also expand and contract, but this does not need to be hermetically sealed and can have a small expansion gap at the top (assuming your pumped PHE connections are via side tappings on Essex flanges). b) stored water will need topping up from time to time? It can be filled from a hose (or suitably positioned fixed pipework and tap of some sort). The only route of water loss from it will be via evaporation. You are describing a DPS Pandora. They have a few safety controls on that and a deflated expansion vessel on the top of the cylinder. |
#39
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
Bob Mannix wrote:
On the other hand, DD's explanation for the blending valve seems plain common sense and was part of my assumption. Also these thermal store systems only work well (high hot water flow) if the primary side of the PHE (and hence the store itself) is at a very high temperature (75-90degC). This can only be achieved by subtracting the boiler's maximum delta-T from the desired temperature and ensuring the answer is used as the set point for the return water. The condensing efficiency argument is irrelevant as the whole system won't work without the higher than normal return temperature. The blending valve will indeed keep the boiler flow hotter (at least in the early recovery stages after heavy demands have been made on the store, and assuming you have very well controlled stratification in the store), but there are many interacting variables and trade-offs here. These are at their most complex with a directly heated store since you can't control the heating load presented to the boiler as easily. It is worth bearing in mind that this design is being proposed for use with a modern modulating, condensing boiler that supports wide temperature deltas. The whole "thermal store with everything hung off it" design concept is very well suited to older boiler designs where long burns, reduced cycling, high flow temps (and maintained above a threshold return temps) are all "good things". Hence you have a nice "rule of thumb" solution to a number of problems. The whole situation is much less clear cut here. Dribble is right that running rads from the store will let them run at low powers, which was a big gain when the alternative was 20kW or nothing and a mechanical stat overseeing the outer loop control. When the choice is anything from 7[1] to 28kW or nothing and tighter outer loop control, you are not going to notice much difference in a typical house with a few kW of heat losses. ([1] number picked at random - I don't know how low the OPs boiler will modulate). Higher store temps are obviously good from an overall energy density point of view, but less good from a condensing efficiency one. The temperature you set for your hot water take off also has a big impact since it dictates how much headroom you have under the store temperature, and when falling store temperature will start to impact on the HW temperature. Opting for water at a temperature close to that of final use, and with less mixing at the point of use, will give more consistent water temperature output form the store with less worries about maintaining high and well stratified store temperatures. With the modern boiler, the most efficient way to get the high flow temp is to take advantage of a bigger delta T. If your boiler supports analogue control, then even better. You can select higher temps for replenishing the store, and much lower ones for running the heating (which is where you will probably spend most of your money - and so efficiency is of greatest importance). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#40
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DIY Heatbank - fine tuning of system (incl CH)
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message reenews.net... "John Rumm" wrote in message ... wrote: As an aside, have you considered using a indirect store with a fast recovery coil carrying the primary heating water? That would allow the use of a sealed system primary to drive the rads and the store. I have considered using another PHE to heat the store(particularly as my boiler is ideally supposed to work on sealled systems but will apparently work on vented if pressure sensor is disconnected). Thought this better than coil as can be cleaned easily if necessary. Also I assume order of efficiency is coil,PHE and best is heat store direct. Another PHE would do the trick quite nicely. While these are not cheap, you would not need such a large one for this application since the boiler power is the limiting factor here. You may even save equal or more money by not needing an expensive cylinder with fast recovery coil. (any direct tank could be used). Water to water PHEs are quite efficient so you would not loose much if anything over pumping the primary through a direct store. It is cheaper, far more efficient in economy, and far quicker using a plate heat X and bronze pump heating up a large direct cylinder. 95% plus of the boilers heat is extracted via the plate and put into the fresh water in the cylinder. Here is an off-the-shelf model: http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com/products/plateflow.htm This also is a two-stage DHW delivery too. If he cylinder is exhausted of heat it reverts to what the boiler gives like a combi. If no draw-off it just re-heats the cylinder. So, even better performance from using a plate rather than a coil. |
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