Hi All,

I just went into my 'local plumbers merchant' for a bit of advise and
to then (based on the advise) buy some bits.

I have used them many times over the years, one guy is a stores man
the other much more helpful (so guess which one I normally head for).
;-)

Today my friendly guy wasn't there so had to use the stores man and
whilst trying to keep it short and relevant, briefly described what I
needed to do (the water connections on this replacement multipoint
water heater). I mentioned the the old heater used joints with a
washer (on a flat shoulder, as per a tap connector on both fitting and
appliance) whereas the new heater used olived type compression joints,
however one of the ends I had from the old installation was quite a
neat tight 90 deg bend in 15mm copper but not a 'fitting' as such (ie,
just a bit of bent 15mm copper, no flange or collar etc) and I could
probably use something similar to re-fit the new heater in the
existing location. [1]

A guy hanging about in the shop came over (I'd seen him in there
before, maybe their 'plumber') and suggested the bent bit of copper
may have been part of a 'tail' that could have been supplied with the
boiler and instead I could just use a 'street elbow'. I asked if that
was ok to use with what was supposed to be an olived compression
connection (as opposed to a washered connection, as with a tap
connector) and he muttered summat about 'if you don't know what you
are doing you shouldn't be doing it' yada yada.

I thanked him again for trying to help, bade my farewells and went and
spent 30 quid in Wickes instead. I found what I was looking for re the
neat bent pipe in the form of a 'part crossover 15mm' where I can cut
a nice neat 90 deg section of plain copper pipe, suitable for fitting
into the heater one end (with an olive) and the isolation valve at the
other (again, a compression joint). I could have done (and may still
do) the same thing with a std 90 deg compression elbow and a couple of
bits of 15mm pipe, but that would result in a slightly tighter turn
(water resistance etc).

No wonder some of these 'local traders' are going out of business
[2]. :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[1] One of the other original water connections was a 90 deg 15mm tap
connector and in my understanding, 'not suitable' for use against an
olived type fitting? A connection possibly originally made by a
professional plumber, like the guy in the shop! ;-)

[2] If I get the opportunity I will (quietly) mention what happened to
the friendly guy (and possibly the owner), just so he knows ...

On 9 Apr, 16:57, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I just went into my 'local plumbers merchant' for a bit of advise and
to then (based on the advise) buy some bits.

I have used them many times over the years, one guy is a stores man
the other much more helpful (so guess which one I normally head for).
;-)

Today my friendly guy wasn't there so had to use the stores man and
whilst trying to keep it short and relevant, briefly described what I
needed to do (the water connections on this replacement multipoint
water heater). I mentioned the the old heater used joints with a
washer (on a flat shoulder, as per a tap connector on both fitting and
appliance) whereas the new heater used olived type compression joints,
however one of the ends I had from the old installation was quite a
neat tight 90 deg bend in 15mm copper but not a 'fitting' as such (ie,
just a bit of bent 15mm copper, no flange or collar etc) and I could
probably use something similar to re-fit the new heater in the
existing location. [1]

A guy hanging about in the shop came over (I'd seen him in there
before, maybe their 'plumber') and suggested the bent bit of copper
may have been part of a 'tail' that could have been supplied with the
boiler and instead I could just use a 'street elbow'. I asked if that
was ok to use with what was supposed to be an olived compression
connection (as opposed to a washered connection, as with a tap
connector) and he muttered summat about 'if you don't know what you
are doing you shouldn't be doing it' yada yada.

I thanked him again for trying to help, bade my farewells and went and
spent 30 quid in Wickes instead. I found what I was looking for re the
neat bent pipe in the form of a 'part crossover 15mm' where I can cut
a nice neat 90 deg section of plain copper pipe, suitable for fitting
into the heater one end (with an olive) and the isolation valve at the
other (again, a compression joint). I could have done (and may still
do) the same thing with a std 90 deg compression elbow and a couple of
bits of 15mm pipe, but that would result in a slightly tighter turn
(water resistance etc).

No wonder some of these 'local traders' are going out of business
[2]. :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[1] One of the other original water connections was a 90 deg 15mm tap
connector and in my understanding, 'not suitable' for use against an
olived type fitting? A connection possibly originally made by a
professional plumber, like the guy in the shop! ;-)

[2] If I get the opportunity I will (quietly) mention what happened to
the friendly guy (and possibly the owner), just so he knows ...

Thats just the "builders merchant" attitude you find all over the
place.
One local merchant is open to the "public" as well as trade,
and you see them sizing up the clients for trade or public before
deciding
how to treat them ! I ask for advice elsewhere (including this group)
and
go in asking for exactly what I want. If I use the wrong terminology
and get
a funny look, I add, "or whatever you call it down here" , implying
I'm from
some unspecified area of the country where they may well call purlins
"porloynes"
and roof tiles "wigglers".
Simon.

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson
wrote:



No wonder some of these 'local traders' are going out of business

Thats just the "builders merchant" attitude you find all over the
place.

I have had:

Friendly but useless..
Unfriendly and useless..
Unfriendly but useful..
and on a rare occasion ..
Friendly and useful!

You can often tell you have got the last one because they:

1) Listen to what you have to say (when I mentioned this particular
water heater today this 'store man' said, "I've never seen one, never
ordered one, never sold one or likely to see one"? What sort of
comment was that and what purposed did it serve? Or maybe it's what I
should expect? The good one will then go straight to a solution for
you, even offering alternatives, all of which are equally workable.

One local merchant is open to the "public" as well as trade,
and you see them sizing up the clients for trade or public before
deciding how to treat them !

I generally go into said places looking like 'a tradesman' (because
I'm not going to wear a suit to do plumbing / painting / bricklaying
etc) and *generally* know what I'm after. If I don't I am often
surprised what range of bizarre things they can come up with (too used
to thinking inside the box possibly)?

I ask for advice elsewhere (including this group) and go in asking
for exactly what I want. If I use the wrong terminology and get
a funny look, I add, "or whatever you call it down here" ,
implying I'm from some unspecified area of the country where
they may well call purlins "porloynes" and roof tiles "wigglers".

LOL! I needed that, thanks ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Hi Tim,

I'd agree that it's cheaper, and you're more likely to get good
advice, by asking questions in here and then ordering what you want
from Screwfix. Given the low prices in Screwfix, Toolstation and the
like for both trade and "the public" (incidentally, why any business
should make that distinction in its pricing is beyond me), I would
have thought that the only long-term, stay-in-business strategy for
building and plumbers' merchants is to give out very good, friendly
advice, for which most people would happily pay a premium. If they
want to be arsey as well as expensive good riddance to them, I've got
a special relationship with the lady on the Screwfix switchboard!

Cheers!

Martin

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:42:54 -0700 (PDT), Martin Pentreath
wrote:

Hi Tim,

I'd agree that it's cheaper, and you're more likely to get good
advice, by asking questions in here and then ordering what you want
from Screwfix. Given the low prices in Screwfix, Toolstation and the
like for both trade and "the public" (incidentally, why any business
should make that distinction in its pricing is beyond me),

Agreed, but although I do have a Screwfix (and possibly Toolstation
tho I've never used them before) reasonably locally, neither are as
near as Wickes for me and for just a couple of items often not worth
the extra effort.

I would
have thought that the only long-term, stay-in-business strategy for
building and plumbers' merchants is to give out very good, friendly
advice, for which most people would happily pay a premium.

You would have thought eh. To be fair the guy I normally speak to at
this plumbers merchants is 'ok'. Not over useful but I understand with
all the rules and regs these days they can't always advise re stuff
that needs to comply etc. The point though is though, if I knew what I
wanted I would have gone straight to one of the sheds. As it turns out
I did know what I wanted. ;-)

If they
want to be arsey as well as expensive good riddance to them, I've got
a special relationship with the lady on the Screwfix switchboard!

Exactly. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Martin Pentreath wrote:
Hi Tim,

I'd agree that it's cheaper, and you're more likely to get good
advice, by asking questions in here and then ordering what you want
from Screwfix. Given the low prices in Screwfix, Toolstation and the
like for both trade and "the public" (incidentally, why any business
should make that distinction in its pricing is beyond me), I would
have thought that the only long-term, stay-in-business strategy for
building and plumbers' merchants is to give out very good, friendly
advice, for which most people would happily pay a premium. If they
want to be arsey as well as expensive good riddance to them, I've got
a special relationship with the lady on the Screwfix switchboard!

So agreed. As the plumbers merchants (and so on) already charge a
premium - by not giving a discount on an individual transaction, not
giving as big a discount, not giving a discount on the monthly
cumulative spend, not providing credit facilities, etc. - they
effectively turn away the people who pay the highest prices.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:04 +0100, Rod
wrote:


So agreed. As the plumbers merchants (and so on) already charge a
premium - by not giving a discount on an individual transaction, not
giving as big a discount, not giving a discount on the monthly
cumulative spend, not providing credit facilities, etc. - they
effectively turn away the people who pay the highest prices.

Sometimes yes.

And what makes (or should make) good customer service important to
them is the fact that in many cases people are just looking for (say)
a plumbers merchant so don't need to go to a shed where 'everything is
under one roof'.[1]

I was just thinking on and maybe in this case the shop is just their
own store for their own plumbers, so the general public dropping in
and interfering with their day isn't actually what they want? I can't
think that's the case though, not unless they are getting pretty good
deals on their rent for a high street shop where a small unit
somewhere would do?

All the best ..

T i m

[1] Like with food shopping where you would probably want fish, meat,
bread, vegetables, beer (and cleaning products etc) all in one go.

T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I just went into my 'local plumbers merchant' for a bit of advise and
to then (based on the advise) buy some bits.

Ah well, there's yer problem mate. You shoulda asked for "advice", not
"advise". ;-)

Tim

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:04 +0100 Rod wrote :
So agreed. As the plumbers merchants (and so on) already charge a
premium - by not giving a discount on an individual transaction,
not giving as big a discount, not giving a discount on the monthly
cumulative spend, not providing credit facilities, etc. - they
effectively turn away the people who pay the highest prices.

But are they - to a trade supplier (and the trade customers in the
queue g) desirable customers? You may be making 100% mark-up, but
if it takes 5 minutes to sell one £1 fitting then you're not even
covering the salesperson's wages.

That was the reason for my wording - I really don't know how desirable
we are. :-)

But perhaps the biggest reason is actually to allow plumbers (and such)
to charge £1000 to a customer for a boiler for which they actually paid,
say, &700. They add a percentage to the price (which is
usually/often/sometimes identified in contract details). But they also
get the discounts, etc. which are not usually factored in. Certainly the
"buy three boilers and get a free fortnight holiday" offers won't be.

Of course there is a cost involved in a tradesperson procuring the
boiler and they should be able get recompense for that. But the other
discounts and benefits should at leats be declared and the whole deal
made transparent.

Keeping us and other end customers out reduces the likelihood of people
objecting.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:04 +0100 Rod wrote :
So agreed. As the plumbers merchants (and so on) already charge a
premium - by not giving a discount on an individual transaction,
not giving as big a discount, not giving a discount on the monthly
cumulative spend, not providing credit facilities, etc. - they
effectively turn away the people who pay the highest prices.

But are they - to a trade supplier (and the trade customers in the
queue g) desirable customers? You may be making 100% mark-up, but
if it takes 5 minutes to sell one £1 fitting then you're not even
covering the salesperson's wages.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:43:15 +0100 Rod wrote :
Of course there is a cost involved in a tradesperson procuring the
boiler and they should be able get recompense for that. But the other
discounts and benefits should at leats be declared and the whole deal
made transparent.

Keeping us and other end customers out reduces the likelihood of
people objecting.

That was certainly a lot truer a decade or two back, though my local
outlet, B&G Heating (now part of City Plumbing) just charged everyone
the same. But with the internet anyone and everyone knows what you
really (should) pay for things.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

sm_jamieson wrote:

On 9 Apr, 16:57, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I just went into my 'local plumbers merchant' for a bit of advise and
to then (based on the advise) buy some bits.

I have used them many times over the years, one guy is a stores man
the other much more helpful (so guess which one I normally head for).
;-)

Today my friendly guy wasn't there so had to use the stores man and
whilst trying to keep it short and relevant, briefly described what I
needed to do (the water connections on this replacement multipoint
water heater). I mentioned the the old heater used joints with a
washer (on a flat shoulder, as per a tap connector on both fitting and
appliance) whereas the new heater used olived type compression joints,
however one of the ends I had from the old installation was quite a
neat tight 90 deg bend in 15mm copper but not a 'fitting' as such (ie,
just a bit of bent 15mm copper, no flange or collar etc) and I could
probably use something similar to re-fit the new heater in the
existing location. [1]

A guy hanging about in the shop came over (I'd seen him in there
before, maybe their 'plumber') and suggested the bent bit of copper
may have been part of a 'tail' that could have been supplied with the
boiler and instead I could just use a 'street elbow'. I asked if that
was ok to use with what was supposed to be an olived compression
connection (as opposed to a washered connection, as with a tap
connector) and he muttered summat about 'if you don't know what you
are doing you shouldn't be doing it' yada yada.

I thanked him again for trying to help, bade my farewells and went and
spent 30 quid in Wickes instead. I found what I was looking for re the
neat bent pipe in the form of a 'part crossover 15mm' where I can cut
a nice neat 90 deg section of plain copper pipe, suitable for fitting
into the heater one end (with an olive) and the isolation valve at the
other (again, a compression joint). I could have done (and may still
do) the same thing with a std 90 deg compression elbow and a couple of
bits of 15mm pipe, but that would result in a slightly tighter turn
(water resistance etc).

No wonder some of these 'local traders' are going out of business
[2]. :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[1] One of the other original water connections was a 90 deg 15mm tap
connector and in my understanding, 'not suitable' for use against an
olived type fitting? A connection possibly originally made by a
professional plumber, like the guy in the shop! ;-)

[2] If I get the opportunity I will (quietly) mention what happened to
the friendly guy (and possibly the owner), just so he knows ...


Thats just the "builders merchant" attitude you find all over the
place.
One local merchant is open to the "public" as well as trade,
and you see them sizing up the clients for trade or public before
deciding
how to treat them ! I ask for advice elsewhere (including this group)
and
go in asking for exactly what I want. If I use the wrong terminology
and get
a funny look, I add, "or whatever you call it down here" , implying
I'm from
some unspecified area of the country where they may well call purlins
"porloynes"
and roof tiles "wigglers".

I was put in a similar situation about 8 years ago. At this time we had
a cast iron floor mounted boiler that I had been nursing along for about
15 years.
I went into a very good plumbing, heating company and when I got to the
front of the queue, I asked if they had one of these and waved the
piping and gas control vale in front of them, knowing that it would be
that much more recognizable as an assembly. One of the plumbers turned
round and said that I wanted such and such device. I went away very
happy and got the CH back up and running again.

Before anyone comments on my abilities to work with gas, I have worked
with far more dangerous gasses than the one that comes from the North Sea.

Dave

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:01:40 +0100, Dave
wrote:



I was put in a similar situation about 8 years ago. At this time we had
a cast iron floor mounted boiler that I had been nursing along for about
15 years.
I went into a very good plumbing, heating company and when I got to the
front of the queue, I asked if they had one of these and waved the
piping and gas control vale in front of them, knowing that it would be
that much more recognizable as an assembly. One of the plumbers turned
round and said that I wanted such and such device. I went away very
happy and got the CH back up and running again.

Result and it can and does happen. I went into another plumbers
merchants today and as it was quite quiet I had two guys trying to
help me, including one phoning the manufacturer to see if a part was
still available. Such a contrast to yesterday's place, no
condescending comments (it could have just been 'store man whit') ..
just helpfulness ..

Before anyone comments on my abilities to work with gas, I have worked
with far more dangerous gasses than the one that comes from the North Sea.

And that's the rub isn't it Dave ... you might be much, much more
'competent' (as in ability to do the stuff safely and to code) than
most CORGI engineers but if you haven't paid yer subs to the CORGI
club ...

All the best ..

T i m

In message , Dave
writes
sm_jamieson wrote:

On 9 Apr, 16:57, T i m wrote:

Hi All,

I just went into my 'local plumbers merchant' for a bit of advise and
to then (based on the advise) buy some bits.

I have used them many times over the years, one guy is a stores man
the other much more helpful (so guess which one I normally head for).
;-)

Today my friendly guy wasn't there so had to use the stores man and
whilst trying to keep it short and relevant, briefly described what I
needed to do (the water connections on this replacement multipoint
water heater). I mentioned the the old heater used joints with a
washer (on a flat shoulder, as per a tap connector on both fitting and
appliance) whereas the new heater used olived type compression joints,
however one of the ends I had from the old installation was quite a
neat tight 90 deg bend in 15mm copper but not a 'fitting' as such (ie,
just a bit of bent 15mm copper, no flange or collar etc) and I could
probably use something similar to re-fit the new heater in the
existing location. [1]

A guy hanging about in the shop came over (I'd seen him in there
before, maybe their 'plumber') and suggested the bent bit of copper
may have been part of a 'tail' that could have been supplied with the
boiler and instead I could just use a 'street elbow'. I asked if that
was ok to use with what was supposed to be an olived compression
connection (as opposed to a washered connection, as with a tap
connector) and he muttered summat about 'if you don't know what you
are doing you shouldn't be doing it' yada yada.

I thanked him again for trying to help, bade my farewells and went and
spent 30 quid in Wickes instead. I found what I was looking for re the
neat bent pipe in the form of a 'part crossover 15mm' where I can cut
a nice neat 90 deg section of plain copper pipe, suitable for fitting
into the heater one end (with an olive) and the isolation valve at the
other (again, a compression joint). I could have done (and may still
do) the same thing with a std 90 deg compression elbow and a couple of
bits of 15mm pipe, but that would result in a slightly tighter turn
(water resistance etc).

No wonder some of these 'local traders' are going out of business
[2]. :-(

All the best ..

T i m

[1] One of the other original water connections was a 90 deg 15mm tap
connector and in my understanding, 'not suitable' for use against an
olived type fitting? A connection possibly originally made by a
professional plumber, like the guy in the shop! ;-)

[2] If I get the opportunity I will (quietly) mention what happened to
the friendly guy (and possibly the owner), just so he knows ...
Thats just the "builders merchant" attitude you find all over the
place.
One local merchant is open to the "public" as well as trade,
and you see them sizing up the clients for trade or public before
deciding
how to treat them ! I ask for advice elsewhere (including this group)
and
go in asking for exactly what I want. If I use the wrong terminology
and get
a funny look, I add, "or whatever you call it down here" , implying
I'm from
some unspecified area of the country where they may well call purlins
"porloynes"
and roof tiles "wigglers".

I was put in a similar situation about 8 years ago. At this time we had
a cast iron floor mounted boiler that I had been nursing along for
about 15 years.
I went into a very good plumbing, heating company and when I got to the
front of the queue, I asked if they had one of these and waved the
piping and gas control vale in front of them, knowing that it would be
that much more recognizable as an assembly. One of the plumbers turned
round and said that I wanted such and such device. I went away very
happy and got the CH back up and running again.

Before anyone comments on my abilities to work with gas, I have worked
with far more dangerous gasses than the one that comes from the North
Sea.

You can get GM baked beans now, you know ...

--
geoff

On 2008-04-10 11:43:15 +0100, Rod said:

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:04 +0100 Rod wrote :
So agreed. As the plumbers merchants (and so on) already charge a
premium - by not giving a discount on an individual transaction, not
giving as big a discount, not giving a discount on the monthly
cumulative spend, not providing credit facilities, etc. - they
effectively turn away the people who pay the highest prices.

But are they - to a trade supplier (and the trade customers in the
queue g) desirable customers? You may be making 100% mark-up, but if
it takes 5 minutes to sell one £1 fitting then you're not even covering
the salesperson's wages.

That was the reason for my wording - I really don't know how desirable
we are. :-)

Clearly not as much as you might think, or the merchants have yet to
wake up to that.



But perhaps the biggest reason is actually to allow plumbers (and such)
to charge £1000 to a customer for a boiler for which they actually
paid, say, &700. They add a percentage to the price (which is
usually/often/sometimes identified in contract details). But they also
get the discounts, etc. which are not usually factored in. Certainly
the "buy three boilers and get a free fortnight holiday" offers won't
be.

That's a loyalty bonus.



Of course there is a cost involved in a tradesperson procuring the
boiler and they should be able get recompense for that. But the other
discounts and benefits should at leats be declared and the whole deal
made transparent.

That depends on what one is buying. If it's a complete solution
including removal and fitting work and the end result is a working
reliable boiler, a lot of people may not care.



Keeping us and other end customers out reduces the likelihood of people
objecting.

Some trade places have moved to different systems of controling
pricing, margin and monitoring business volume. For example, net
pricing or discounts automatically calculated. This avoids
discussions in front of others which is one issue for tradespeople.

For the end customer, one way to circumvent this is to submit an RFQ to
several suppliers, making it clear that it's a competitive request.
Again this avoids open verbal discussion and if the deal is of
sufficient value and it's close to month end, it's surprising what can
be achieved.

T i m wrote:


And that's the rub isn't it Dave ... you might be much, much more
'competent' (as in ability to do the stuff safely and to code) than
most CORGI engineers but if you haven't paid yer subs to the CORGI
club ...

Remember, I was doing it for myself, not a paying customer :-)

Dave