We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:51:56 -0700, wendy_grunge wrote:

We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy
==================================
You wouldn't shop at Tesco without seeing prices so it hardly makes sense
to buy spares for an out-moded central heating system from someone who
won't give you a breakdown of component costs.

J&S appear to have a virtual monopoly of war air heating in this country
which suggest that you might be better off spending your money on a more
conventional 'wet' system which you can customise to your own
specification.

You might be able to subsidise a replacement system by selling the old
warm air ducting;scrap metal prices are quite high at the moment.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

wrote:
We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy

My mother-in-law lives up in Carlisle and has just (about 6 months ago) had
a new Johnson & Starley warm air boiler fitted. I can't contact her until
the weekend but I'll post back then if you like with the price she paid.

John

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:51:56 -0700, wendy_grunge wrote:

We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy
==================================
You wouldn't shop at Tesco without seeing prices so it hardly makes
sense to buy spares for an out-moded central heating system from
someone who won't give you a breakdown of component costs.

J&S appear to have a virtual monopoly of war air heating in this
country which suggest that you might be better off spending your
money on a more conventional 'wet' system which you can customise to
your own specification.

Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John

wrote in message
...
We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy


Stick with the J&S forced air. The new units are a world away from the old.
You may want to install new registers too. Get one with an electrostatic
air filter - eliminates dust. Don't bother with radiators. The boilers do
not last as long as forced air units, You will have no ugly rads and pipes,
a fast heat up, cooling and vent in summer to. Wet system sludge up in the
rads and eventually parts of it will leak laeaving stains.

Get a price from another agent. J&S will give you them.

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:04:15 +0000, John wrote:

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:51:56 -0700, wendy_grunge wrote:

We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy
==================================
You wouldn't shop at Tesco without seeing prices so it hardly makes
sense to buy spares for an out-moded central heating system from
someone who won't give you a breakdown of component costs.

J&S appear to have a virtual monopoly of war air heating in this
country which suggest that you might be better off spending your
money on a more conventional 'wet' system which you can customise to
your own specification.
-----------------------------------

Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a house /
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I know
it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it will be
something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S heater -
Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the increasingly
tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what their
boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400 to replace
it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy


Stick with the J&S forced air. The new units are a world away from the
old. You may want to install new registers too. Get one with an
electrostatic air filter - eliminates dust. Don't bother with radiators.
The boilers do not last as long as forced air units, You will have no ugly
rads and pipes, a fast heat up, cooling and vent in summer to. Wet system
sludge up in the rads and eventually parts of it will leak laeaving
stains.

Get a price from another agent. J&S will give you them.

From the J&S site......

Economaire
Warm Air Heaters to comply with the proposed new Part 'L' (April 2005)

Economaire is a family of air heaters designed to meet the standards
expected of a central heating system for the millennium. The heart of the
design is an electronics panel utilising digital technology and
microprocessor control.

Critical management of flue gases and heat exchanger temperatures result in
the warmth delivered to each room being accurate to +0.1oC, ensuring
exceptional comfort. As the system heats the air direct, warm up time is
virtually immediate, and system efficiency is optimised.

.. ECO Electronic control system as standard
.. Self diagnostics panel as standard
.. Fanned flue enables management of flue gases and offers vertical and
horizontal flue options
.. Digital control technology via microprocessor gives improved comfort
conditions
.. Infinitely variable supply air fan and modulating burner enable output to
match heating demand
.. Automatic ignition returns efficient use of fuel
.. Optional Cleanflow electronic filtration
.. Water heater option for gravity fed or pumped circuit
.. Models available for compartment, free standing or slot fix application
.. Optional rear rising duct

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering
this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a house /
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to.

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:28:30 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering
this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a house /
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to.
----------------------------------
If wet CH with radiators is so inferior to warm air CH why is warm air
heating so rarely installed? Wet CH is flexible and easily maintained,
whereas warm air heating is difficult to modify, and has a tendency to
pump large amounts of dust into the air.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:28:30 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering
this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space
available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a house
/
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to.
----------------------------------
If wet CH with radiators is so inferior to warm air CH why is warm air
heating so rarely installed? Wet CH is flexible and easily maintained,
whereas warm air heating is difficult to modify, and has a tendency to
pump large amounts of dust into the air.

Read what I wrote.

You haven't a clue about forced air, full of old wives tales from cheapo
council house estate versions. It is the norm in the USA, as they know how
to do it right. Have a look at this. This gives decent background:
http://www.sbfaq.borpin.co.uk/dokuwi...ating:warm_air

Give me a two duct forced air, heat recovery & ventilation system any day to
any crap rad system. The forced air system is far superior in just about
every way.

The modern forced air units by J&S are a world away from the older units
too. They will transform a system.

The reason it is not installed is more due to ignorance and lack of skills.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:28:30 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was considering
this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space
available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a house
/
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to.
----------------------------------
If wet CH with radiators is so inferior to warm air CH why is warm air
heating so rarely installed? Wet CH is flexible and easily maintained,
whereas warm air heating is difficult to modify, and has a tendency to
pump large amounts of dust into the air.

Read what I wrote.

You haven't a clue about forced air, full of old wives tales from cheapo
council house estate versions. It is the norm in the USA, as they know
how to do it right. Have a look at this. This gives decent background:
http://www.sbfaq.borpin.co.uk/dokuwi...ating:warm_air

Give me a two duct forced air, heat recovery & ventilation system any day
to any crap rad system. The forced air system is far superior in just
about every way.

The modern forced air units by J&S are a world away from the older units
too. They will transform a system.

The reason it is not installed is more due to ignorance and lack of
skills.

The Unico system. Small flexible multi-layered tubes that act like a car
exhaust and silence high velocity air. A thermal store can be heated by a
boiler, provide DHW and pipe heat to a air-handling unit that distributes it
around house. Full heat recovery and ventilation is possible.

The tube is so small it can be retrofitted into existing homes, feeding it
under floors and over lofts.

http://www.unicosystem.co.uk/

The USA site:
http://www.unicosystem.com/

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:09:00 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:28:30 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was
considering this
very thing, is that she had nowhere to put radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space
available
for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever seen a
house /
property that had no free wall space.

Cic.

Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to.
----------------------------------
If wet CH with radiators is so inferior to warm air CH why is warm air
heating so rarely installed? Wet CH is flexible and easily maintained,
whereas warm air heating is difficult to modify, and has a tendency to
pump large amounts of dust into the air.

Read what I wrote.

You haven't a clue about forced air, full of old wives tales from cheapo
council house estate versions. It is the norm in the USA, as they know
how to do it right. Have a look at this. This gives decent background:
http://www.sbfaq.borpin.co.uk/dokuwi...ating:warm_air

Give me a two duct forced air, heat recovery & ventilation system any
day to any crap rad system. The forced air system is far superior in
just about every way.

The modern forced air units by J&S are a world away from the older units
too. They will transform a system.

The reason it is not installed is more due to ignorance and lack of
skills.
==================================
I did read what you wrote. You wrote:

"Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to."

That is a very clear statement that wet heating systems are inferior to
warm air systems. The sources you cite in support of your argument are not
very convincing. One of those sources states:

"I Cannot Get Ducts To Upstairs. How Do I Get Around This?

Some integrated circulators within the warm-air casing have large enough
outputs to incorporate a partial radiator system for the upstairs. Another
method is to install two small warm-air units operating independently,
supplying ground and first floors."

Unless I've mis-read that it suggests resorting to a conventional wet
system for part of the installation to overcome the inherent problems of
warm air heating. The same result can be achieved at much lower cost and
much less disruption by installing a fully wet system with one or more
fanned heaters replacing conventional radiators. Of course one could adopt
the other solution suggested in that quote ("two small warm-air units
operating independently") but that wouldn't be cost effective in money or
space terms.

Another of your sources suggests installing a network of ducting
consisting of *80mm* ducting. The cost and inconvenience of installing
such a network compared with a single spine of 22mm pipework for a basic
wet system is really prohibitive for most people.

I repeat what I said, the small takeup of warm air heating compared with
wet systems is due to much more that ignorance and lack of skills. The
fact that it's the preferred system in America has no particular relevance
to this country where houses generally are smaller and built to different
standards.

Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
I did read what you wrote. You wrote:

"Why put rads in and have an inferior
system when there is no need to."

That is a very clear statement that
wet heating systems are inferior to
warm air systems.

As clear as day!

The sources you cite in support of your argument are not
very convincing. One of those sources states:

"I Cannot Get Ducts To Upstairs. How Do I Get Around This?

Some integrated circulators within the
warm-air casing have large enough
outputs to incorporate a partial radiator
system for the upstairs. Another
method is to install two small warm-air
units operating independently,
supplying ground and first floors."

Unless I've mis-read that it suggests
resorting to a conventional wet
system for part of the installation to
overcome the inherent problems of
warm air heating.

Firstly, there are no inherent problems with forced air heating. The
problem is putting it an old house - a retro fit. Now Unico is here that is
not such a problem as the flex pipes are small and can run in a small duct
up the stairwell or wherever.

The same result can be achieved at
much lower cost and much less disruption
by installing a fully wet system with one
or more fanned heaters replacing conventional
radiators.

All Myson heaters are noisy.

Of course one could adopt
the other solution suggested in
that quote ("two small warm-air units
operating independently") but that
wouldn't be cost effective in money or
space terms.

That gets rid of the problem of getting ducting from one floor to another.
One in the loft and one maybe under the stairs downstairs. But again Unico
have solved much of that problem with small tube ducting.

As you seem to be obsessed with water inside pipes, you could have a boiler
as the heat source. A air handler with copper heat battery in the loft for
upstairs and one downstairs. Just 22mm pipe running to each and no ducting
between floors. The air handling units are just big Myson heaters with
ducting coming off them.

In money terms it could be very cost effective - it depends on the job in
hand.

Another of your sources suggests
installing a network of ducting
consisting of *80mm* ducting.
The cost and inconvenience of installing
such a network compared with a single
spine of 22mm pipework for a basic
wet system is really prohibitive for most people.

Again look at the Unico link. You have to understand what forced air gives
you. You clearly didn't read the links.

* Instant heat up
* even temperatures
* no cold spots so 100% of rooms used (even around the patio windows).
* 100% fresh air if you want.
* Heat recovery
* humidification if you want
* comfort cooling in summer
* The dry systems don't freeze in winter

.....and if need be, forced cooling in that as well - with de-humidification.

A properly designed and installed forced air system is far, far superior to
rads slapped around the walls. Those who slag forced air in this country
tend to be plumbers, who know sweet FA about. They fear it as it would
rightly take the heating side away from them. Plumbers are good at drains
not heating - they claimed heating is their field as water ran in pipes. It
isn't their field. There are different qualifications for each.

I repeat what I said, the small
takeup of warm air heating compared with
wet systems is due to much more that
ignorance and lack of skills.

It is not. It is because of ignorance - which you have displayed (your view
is quite common). And lack of skills. The average "plumber" just hasn't a
clue - not his field, they just walk away to the next bathroom change.

Most newer selfbuild houses are now being built to higher insulation specs -
they tend to go over building reags, which are quite high now. Most of the
older selfbuilt houses had heat recovery and vent systems (MHRV) and UFH
heating. The higher insulation means the UFH can be done away with. The
ducting then used for full heat, vent and heat recovery. A heat, vent, heat
recovery system adds value to a house and is rightly seen as a healthy eco
addition - heating, ventilation and cooling all in one.

The fact that it's the preferred system in America
has no particular relevance
to this country where houses generally are
smaller and built to different standards.

A house is a house wherever it is, and the discerning Americans prefer
forced air. Instead of trying to play the know-it-all and making yourself
out to be foolish, best learn more about forced air, heat recovery and vent.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

That gets rid of the problem of getting ducting from one floor to another.
One in the loft and one maybe under the stairs downstairs. But again
Unico have solved much of that problem with small tube ducting.

As you seem to be obsessed with water inside pipes, you could have a
boiler as the heat source. A air handler with copper heat battery in the
loft for upstairs and one downstairs. Just 22mm pipe running to each and
no ducting between floors. The air handling units are just big Myson
heaters with ducting coming off them.

Using a boiler and air handlers with copper heater batteries means that by
installing bronze pumps all ferrous is taken out of the system. No sludge
that plagues rad system then. Rads are sludge collectors and the efficiency
drops in time an dten the corrosion, etc.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:08:45 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
I did read what you wrote. You wrote:

"Why put rads in and have an inferior system when there is no need to."

That is a very clear statement that
wet heating systems are inferior to
warm air systems.

As clear as day!


snipped a great deal of hot air

The fact that it's the preferred system in America has no particular
relevance
to this country where houses generally are smaller and built to
different standards.

A house is a house wherever it is, and the discerning Americans prefer
forced air. Instead of trying to play the know-it-all and making
yourself out to be foolish, best learn more about forced air, heat
recovery and vent.

==================================
Basically you're saying that you know better than about 99% of the British
heating / ventilating industry.

Warm air heating has virtually no penetration of the domestic market in
this country for the obvious reason that people have decided that it
doesn't compare very favourably in overall terms with the tried and tested
wet system which is basically simple to install and maintain, cost
effective and well-suited to our climate.

Remember that the OP asked for alternatives to warm air heating and
pointed out that the J&S representative wouldn't tell her the price of the
boiler he wanted to install. Anybody that says, "Trust me, I'm a
salesman", is certainly not a person to be trusted to tell the truth about
their product. Restricted product information equals fishy deal to me.

A few pictures of your own warm air installation might be informative, but
not fully convincing.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
==================================
Basically you're saying that you know
better than about 99% of the British
heating / ventilating industry.

Any "heating engineer" will agree with me. Plumbers do not. The proof in
the eating. The comfort conditions in forced air, heat recovery and vent
are far superior. They are also cheaper to run.

Warm air heating has virtually no
penetration of the domestic market in
this country

You are like a stuck record

for the obvious reason
that people have decided that it
doesn't compare very favourably
in overall terms with the tried and tested
wet system which is basically simple
to install and maintain, cost
effective and well-suited to our climate.

That is total balls. "doesn't compare very favourably" - BS words. Forced
air and vent is much superior in comfort conditions - you have been told
that, but it doesn't sink in. Forced air is simple maintain, as in most
cases it is incorporated all in one box...and no corroding rads every 8 to
10 years.

Remember that the OP asked for
alternatives to warm air heating and
pointed out that the J&S representative
wouldn't tell her the price of the
boiler he wanted to install.

Then go to another dealer an dget another price. Or go Unico who can put a
air hander in there heated via a combi. Best she just gets the latest J&S
unit - excellent unit indeed.

A few pictures of your own warm
air installation

Yes pictures convince the hard of thinking. As I said to you. Get to
understand how it works and what it offers. Then the differing systems
available. Then you will be much better informed and not make a fool of
yourself.

Architects deplore discharge and overflow pipes penetrating the side of
building. These pipes also extract heat from the building too, screwing up
heat losses. They also stain the side of buildings. Since 2001 toilets can
be overflowed into bowls, so no problem there with pipes penetrating the
outside. Unvented cylinders can be discharged into the drain using a tundish
and HepVo trap now. Again no outside wall penetration. But that still
leaves the boilers which have flues and discharge pipes - although the Atmos
can be discharged into a tundish and HepVo trap.

To avoid all this crap on the outside of walls, with modern insulation
levels being so high and flats insulating themselves in a block they install
electric heating. Three to fours times as expensive to run, but as it will
be rarely on it becomes cost effective to run.

Many are looking at common boiler rooms and local hydraulic interface units
(heat distribution boxes so to speak, as used in district heating schemes).
In each flat is takes heat from a pipe loop from the common boiler room.
These consist of a few plate heat exchangers and controls. One doing DHW for
the flat giving instant DHW from the mains and the other feeding a small
heat recovery and vent unit with a copper coil inside. Ducting up to the
roof provides air intake and exhaust. No rads on walls and cheap to run
heating and ventilation too. The heat is charged via an energy meter. So no
gas in the flats, only in the boiler room.

Forced air/heating and vent/heat recovery is being installed and is
increasing in uptake too.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:28:43 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
==================================
Basically you're saying that you know
better than about 99% of the British
heating / ventilating industry.

Any "heating engineer" will agree with me. Plumbers do not. The proof in
the eating. The comfort conditions in forced air, heat recovery and vent
are far superior. They are also cheaper to run.

Warm air heating has virtually no
penetration of the domestic market in
this country

You are like a stuck record

for the obvious reason
that people have decided that it
doesn't compare very favourably
in overall terms with the tried and tested
wet system which is basically simple
to install and maintain, cost
effective and well-suited to our climate.

That is total balls. "doesn't compare very favourably" - BS words. Forced
air and vent is much superior in comfort conditions - you have been told
that, but it doesn't sink in. Forced air is simple maintain, as in most
cases it is incorporated all in one box...and no corroding rads every 8 to
10 years.

Remember that the OP asked for
alternatives to warm air heating and
pointed out that the J&S representative
wouldn't tell her the price of the
boiler he wanted to install.

Then go to another dealer an dget another price. Or go Unico who can put a
air hander in there heated via a combi. Best she just gets the latest J&S
unit - excellent unit indeed.

A few pictures of your own warm
air installation

Yes pictures convince the hard of thinking. As I said to you. Get to
understand how it works and what it offers. Then the differing systems
available. Then you will be much better informed and not make a fool of
yourself.

More snipped
==================================
Yes, pictures do sometimes convince. I assume that you don't have any
because you personally are using a conventional wet system despite the
fact that you're so adamant that it's inferior.

If "any heating engineer" will agree with you (your unsupported claim)
then they're making a very poor job of convincing the vast majority of the
population of the superiority of warm air heating. If any product is
proved to be so superior to competing products it soon takes a leading
market position. People generally live in a real world; they buy products
that suit their purpose and life-style rather than something prescribed by
self-styled experts. It seems logical that professional installers would
long since have embraced such a superior product that produced higher
earnings for themselves; there's no strong evidence that that has happened.

Warm air heating has been around for many years and it has never become
large scale mainstream for domestic use simply because people don't like
it enough.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
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"Cicero" wrote in message
news

If "any heating engineer" will agree
with you (your unsupported claim)

Oh my God!! unsupported claim. You are either a plumber or just plain thick
or both!!!

then they're making a very poor job
of convincing the vast majority of the
population of the superiority of warm
air heating.

Know it alls like you will never be convinced. I am responding to you as
others will be reading it and may actually believe the likes of you. You
didn't even know electrostatic air filters for Gods sake. You haven't
aclue.

If any product is
proved to be so superior to competing
products it soon takes a leading
market position.

It has in the massive USA and closing in, in some Continental countries too.
Broag make some fine forced air stuff.

People generally live in a real world;

That they do. Have you tried coming in.

they buy products
that suit their purpose

In domestic heating they buy what a dumb plumber tells them!!! Plumbers
still fit cold water tank in lofts, cylinders and noisy expensive power
shower pumps, when the house has a fantastic mains supply. Heat banks? Duh!
What is Dat guv?

Warm air heating has been around
for many years and it has never become
large scale mainstream for domestic use

There is around 1.5 million homes using it. Now read what I wrote. Read the
links and do some reading about it, and stop making a full prat out of
yourself. No doubt you will come back with more drivel and prattish
writing. If you want to know, drop the attitude and I will help you.

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:04:15 +0000, John wrote:

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:51:56 -0700, wendy_grunge wrote:

We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I
know it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it
will be something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S
heater - Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the
increasingly tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what
their boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400
to replace it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy
==================================
You wouldn't shop at Tesco without seeing prices so it hardly makes
sense to buy spares for an out-moded central heating system from
someone who won't give you a breakdown of component costs.

J&S appear to have a virtual monopoly of war air heating in this
country which suggest that you might be better off spending your
money on a more conventional 'wet' system which you can customise to
your own specification.
-----------------------------------

Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was
considering this very thing, is that she had nowhere to put
radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space
available for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever
seen a house / property that had no free wall space.

Having had warm-air heating since the house was built, there was never any
need to leave free wall space. The settee, for instance is pushed back
against (well, actually millimetres from) one wall, bookcases line another
wall etc., etc.

Nothing insurmountable if they wanted to do a major re-shuffle of
furniture/walls/rooms/space, but they happen to like the layout as it is -
and as it is, there's no space to hang rads of sufficient size/heat output
in existing gaps. They decided it was far, far preferable in their
circumstances to just replace the warm air boiler.

John

"John" noneinuse@ wrote in message
...
Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:04:15 +0000, John wrote:

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:51:56 -0700, wendy_grunge wrote:

We live in a flat with a Johnson & Starley warm air system that has
been disconnected by 'cos the heat exchanger is leaking. Yes, I
know it could be repaired but it's 30+ years old and next year it
will be something else!

We have had a J&S approved guy call who recommends a new J&S
heater - Economaire - it's sealed and doesn't fall foul of the
increasingly tough ventilation/air entry standards. Looks OK.

BUT

However, it does seem a bit expensive. J&S won't tell me what
their boilers cost so I have no way of checking. He wants £2400
to replace it, replace aged fortic and put in new controls.

Is this fair?
***************

Are other warm air boilers available, are they any good?

Wendy
==================================
You wouldn't shop at Tesco without seeing prices so it hardly makes
sense to buy spares for an out-moded central heating system from
someone who won't give you a breakdown of component costs.

J&S appear to have a virtual monopoly of war air heating in this
country which suggest that you might be better off spending your
money on a more conventional 'wet' system which you can customise to
your own specification.
-----------------------------------

Problem with that, as my mother-in-law found when she was
considering this very thing, is that she had nowhere to put
radiators!

John
===================================
What is so very unusual about her property that it has no space
available for radiators in one form or another? I doubt if I've ever
seen a house / property that had no free wall space.

Having had warm-air heating since the house was built, there was never any
need to leave free wall space. The settee, for instance is pushed back
against (well, actually millimetres from) one wall, bookcases line another
wall etc., etc.

Nothing insurmountable if they wanted to do a major re-shuffle of
furniture/walls/rooms/space, but they happen to like the layout as it is -
and as it is, there's no space to hang rads of sufficient size/heat output
in existing gaps. They decided it was far, far preferable in their
circumstances to just replace the warm air boiler.

Very wise too.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:48:42 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news

Snipped again

Now read what I wrote.

=================================
I have done so and I note that you still haven't produced pictures of
your personal installation. How many (approximate figures will do -
you're obviously very busy installing them in large numbers) warm air
systems have you personally installed recently and where can they be
inspected?

If the system is as superior as you suggest then you would be setting an
example to all those poor ignorant people who've chosen an inferior system.

It hasn't yet occurred to you that people vote with their feet and they
clearly haven't yet voted in large numbers for warm air heating, and
there's nothing to suggest that there is any large scale movement in that
direction.

I repeat - people seek advice and choose what they want, not something
dictated to them by someone prepared to condemn a whole industry as
incompetents.

I also repeat the question posed by the OP - "Warm air alternatives". Your
suggestion of 'warm air' as an alternative to 'warm air' doesn't make much
sense.

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:48:42 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news

Snipped again

Now read what I wrote.

snip stupidity

where can they be
inspected?

Try Unico. They will show you around.

If the system is as superior as
you suggest

..,.and that it is. It pumps in fresh air for Gods sake!!!!

then you would be setting an
example to all those poor ignorant
people who've chosen an inferior system.

....I direct them to where they can get info. Have you read all the links?

snip more tripe and drivel

I repeat - people seek advice

The advice they get is poor.

I also repeat the question
posed by the OP - "Warm air alternatives".
Your suggestion of 'warm air' as an
alternative to 'warm air' doesn't make much
sense.

Forced air, heat recovery and vent is. Get to understand what it is all
about instead of being the silly prat.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:27:02 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:48:42 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news


Snipped again

And yet more ducking and diving removed

==================================
You've failed to show any personal knowledge of the system you advocate.
I've asked you to show pictures of your own installed system and of
installations carried out by you. Clearly you can't and it seems very
obvious to me that you've never picked up any kind of tool or worked
'hands-on' in your life.

This is a DIY group which people use to ask for information and advice.
The OP asked about alternatives to warm air central heating and your only
response to that is 'more warm air'. I suggested a possible alternative
(an alternative because the OP asked for alternatives)in the form of a
more conventional wet system, as favoured by the majority of specifiers,
installers and customers. Your response to that is that the specifiers are
ignorant, installers are fraudsters and customers are stupid. And of
course, you know better than any specifier, you're more honest than any
installer, but you have no customers and never have had any. Your
credentials are not very convincing.

Let me remind you yet again. If warm air systems are so much superior to
other systems they would have superseded those other systems long ago.
They haven't done so for a variety of reasons and that situation is
unlikely to be changed by a closet theorist like you with no practical
experience of anything.

Cic.

--
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Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:40:26 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
You've failed to show any personal
knowledge of the system you advocate.


Yet more irrelevance snipped

==================================
Still no pictures of your workmanship, I notice. You're obviously not very
proud of your workmanship or perhaps you only work on top secret projects.

You choose to criticise DIYers in a DIY group without
giving any indication of the *professional* qualifications or expertise
which might justify your criticism. DIYers get their hands dirty - you
obviously don't and never have.

You rubbished all professionals in the field, and insulted their
customers, now you recommend that I call in a professional (your good
self) for advice. You want everybody to believe that you are uniquely
qualified to tell everybody else how things should be done.

You are a total plantpot. You should be recycled into a small part of
something useful, but that's probably too much to expect from somebody who
can't grasp the simple fact that people can make choices without being
browbeaten by a counter-top pundit.

Cic.

--
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Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
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In message , Cicero
writes
A house is a house wherever it is, and the discerning Americans prefer
forced air. Instead of trying to play the know-it-all and making
yourself out to be foolish, best learn more about forced air, heat
recovery and vent.

==================================
Basically you're saying that you know better than about 99% of the British
heating / ventilating industry.

99% of the British heating / ventilating industry prolly haven't flooded
a house my injudicial use of a hacksaw


--
geoff

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:09:00 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Give me a two duct forced air, heat recovery & ventilation system any day

As I recall, as with many of the things you recommend, you don't
actually live where one is fitted do you?

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:36:03 -0000 Doctor Drivel wrote :
In normal day to day usage, a modern forced air/vent/heat recovery
system is far superior. They are a world away from the older warm
air systems which use the hallway as the return air ducting. These
new systems have a constant supply of fresh air coming out of the
ducts. The house is always fresh and never stale air or smalled
hanging around. They also cool the house in summer too.

You're confusing two completely different things.

I am not confusing anything at all.

Balanced
ventilation with heat recovery (MVHR) is an
excellent choice if you can ensure the
airtightness of the building envelope, but it would be
set up so as to maintain a ventilation rate of 0.5ACH. The air that
comes out of the outlet vents is warmed by passing over the heat
exchanger, but will be slightly cooler than the ambient given that
the heat exchanger is not 100% efficient.

The air is re-heated through a heater battery.

If you want to heat a building using warm
air, then you have to move a huge amount
of it given its low thermal capacity and it
has to come out of the grilles significantly
warmer than ambient to do anything.

You got that right,

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Cicero
writes
A house is a house wherever it is, and the discerning Americans prefer
forced air. Instead of trying to play the know-it-all and making
yourself out to be foolish, best learn more about forced air, heat
recovery and vent.

==================================
Basically you're saying that you know better than about 99% of the British
heating / ventilating industry.

99% of the British heating / ventilating industry prolly haven't flooded a
house my injudicial use of a hacksaw

Maxie - they have!!! If it can be broke, they will brake it. Maxie do you
use hacksaws up those trees wearing your frock? Do you think the frock will
get caught? Do think hacksaws and frock should be outlawed when in the same
room or when on the same beach?

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:09:00 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Give me a two duct forced air, heat recovery & ventilation system any day

As I recall, as with many of the things you recommend, you don't
actually live where one is fitted do you?

You clearly know nothing of forced air? He was in the army you know.

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Still no

Another uk.d-i-y plantpot!!

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:24:48 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Still no

Another uk.d-i-y plantpot!!
==================================
Flow of dribble dried up!

Sad old Maxie - run out of hot air!

Cic.

--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================

"Cicero" wrote in message
news
Sad old Maxie - run out of hot air!

How dare you! Maxie hasn't run out hot air at all. He always has reserve.
Maxie is a fabulist.