We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)

---------------------------------------------------

Not just price of platinum to blow
By John Dizard
Published: February 3 2008 22:24 | Last updated: February 3 2008 22:24
Right at the moment when we really didn’t need another gasket to blow in
the economic-financial engine, one has. This time it isn’t a leveraged,
insured, hedged, guaranteed, recapitalised, disclosed, rated,
structured, financial “asset”.

It’s a real world process: the mining and refining of platinum.
Leverage, or the dependence of a lot of stuff on a little bit of stuff,
is a property not only of balance sheets, but of industrial processes.
Without sufficient platinum, it is not possible to produce automobiles,
trucks, and diesel engines that can be sold in North America, Europe,
Japan, and much of the rest of the world. The catalytic converters
required by environmental laws do not work without it. And right now, we
are on a clear track to running short of the platinum needed to
maintain, let alone increase, the production of gasoline and diesel engines.

The problem is the chronic electricity shortages in South Africa. All of
the greenhouse gases produced last month by the conferees in Davos did
not result in this problem being “addressed”, as their organisers would
put it. Now the only way to maintain existing clean air standards in the
developed world is to build and operate, as rapidly as possible, a
series of new coal-fired power stations to supply the country’s mines
and refineries.

That won’t happen until 2012 at the earliest. In the meantime, the
already absurdly high platinum price (up more than 40 per cent from a
year ago), probably has to rise even higher to squeeze demand out of
less critical applications such as jewellery. You can expect some
fallback in the current price as you read headlines about South African
mines and refineries restarting, reassurances from government ministers
and electricity supremos, and so on. That correction won’t last, at
least in the absence of a collapse of auto and diesel production. For
one thing, the very speculators who will help with this price-rationing
process will set aside more stocks with which to trade, which will also
reduce usable supply.

Substitutions? More efficient use? Already thought of that. Platinum has
been very expensive for a long time, which is why they name credit cards
after it. Engineers have been making incremental reductions in platinum
content for years, and they will continue to do so. Slowly. The stuff is
just too useful as a catalyst, which means it helps promote a chemical
reaction, such as breaking down pollutants, without itself being
consumed in the process.

South Africa’s mines and refineries supply nearly 80 per cent of world
production. In the rest of the world, for the most part, platinum is
supplied as a by-product of mines principally supplying nickel,
palladium, and other metals. That makes it hard to increase alternative
supplies, even if the mining engineers and skilled workers were
available, which they aren’t.

How did South Africa, and the platinum industry, wind up in this mess?
Apart from what could be easily mistaken for pure ineptitude on the part
of the responsible ministries and the management of Eskom (the
electricity utility), the country made a huge bet on the rapid
development of hydroelectric resources in neighbouring countries. The
state was strongly encouraged to do so by its political supporters among
international organisations and foreign governments, since the
alternative, coal-fired power, was not environmentally acceptable. The
hydroelectric developments, principally around Inga Falls on the Congo
River, would have been ambitious even if the political stability and
engineering skills existed.

So it’s back to the drawing board, and on the drawing boards are going
to be a series of coal stations. Power rationing plans have been
devised, which now call for a reduction of 10 per cent in electricity
use by key industrial customers.

That’s worse than it sounds, by the way. You don’t make up for cutbacks
on that scale in a metals operation by using compact fluorescent bulbs.
In the short term, at least, power cutbacks will lead to
disproportionate cutbacks in metals production. The very deep mines need
to be constantly pumped, cooled, and maintained, lest they flood or
collapse. So it is likely that ore will be piled up next to the
refineries. The ore can only be used as doorstops or paperweights; to
get platinum products you need the refineries.

Michael Jones, the president of Platinum Group Metals, which is building
two new platinum projects in South Africa, says: “We can use diesel
generation for mining our relatively shallow ounces [of reserves]. As a
practical matter you cannot do that with smelting. This [power crisis]
will obviously have an enormous impact both in gold and platinum. There
is a new engineering factor which has to be taken into account, which is
megawatts [of power] per ounce.”

There is another interesting possible impact on markets from the power
cutbacks. A lot of South African gold production has been hedged through
short sales. It may be the case that the banks who lent the gold for the
short sales have suggested that the cutback-plagued mines cover their
short sales with open market purchases. That could have fuelled part of
the gold pop in recent weeks.



Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)


Question....


Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some friends.

In article , The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

Not really - same amount of emissions, different gases. The irony is
that the car produces more CO2 with the catalyst than without.

The catalyst reduces nitrous oxides to oxygen and CO2; Oxidises CO to
CO2 and oxidises any left over hydrocarbons to water and CO2.

--
David Biggins
Cambridge, UK

On Feb 7, 1:52 am, "RW" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in . net...

We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)

Question....

Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some friends.


Come off it, RW. TNP may revel in his almost troll-like status but the
attached article is really quite interesting (well, I thought so
anyway; but maybe I'm just a political nerd :-)

J

John Ionides writes:

On Feb 7, 1:52 am, "RW" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in . net...

We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)

Question....

Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some friends.


Come off it, RW. TNP may revel in his almost troll-like status but the
attached article is really quite interesting (well, I thought so
anyway; but maybe I'm just a political nerd :-)


No doubt there are newsgroups intended to cater for such
nerdery. uk.d-i-y is supposed to be about entirely different nerdery

David Biggins wrote:
In article , The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
The catalyst reduces nitrous oxides to oxygen and CO2;

How does a catalyst convert nitrogen atoms to carbon atoms?

--
LSR

David Biggins wrote:
In article , The Natural
Philosopher wrote:

We need platinum to make low emission cars.

Not really - same amount of emissions, different gases. The irony is
that the car produces more CO2 with the catalyst than without.

catalysts are just one option. There are newsgroups for this stuff if
you want to read more.


NT

Paul Rudin wrote:
John Ionides writes:

On Feb 7, 1:52 am, "RW" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in . net...

We need platinum to make low emission cars.
To make platinum, takes power.
~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.
Or go nuclear.. ;-)
Question....

Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some friends.

Come off it, RW. TNP may revel in his almost troll-like status but the
attached article is really quite interesting (well, I thought so
anyway; but maybe I'm just a political nerd :-)


No doubt there are newsgroups intended to cater for such
nerdery. uk.d-i-y is supposed to be about entirely different nerdery

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.


I posted that lot up because it shows how silly a 'knee jerk' 'coal is
bad' type response can really make nonsense unless its examined in the
overall context of a complex global economy.

As with CFL bulbs, for example, which is a thread that was done to death
without anyone complaining..CFL bulbs are barely DIY either.

And finally, unlike most other groups. uk.d-i-y is populated by a rather
larger number of articulate and intelligent people than most.

So I thought it would in any case be interesting.

As far as going down the pub goes, its expensive, it involves alcohol
and driving, they won't let you smoke, and the people there arer boring
beyond belief.

On 7 Feb, 02:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.
...
The problem is the chronic electricity shortages in South Africa. All of
the greenhouse gases produced last month by the conferees in Davos did
not result in this problem being "addressed", as their organisers would
put it. Now the only way to maintain existing clean air standards in the
developed world is to build and operate, as rapidly as possible, a
series of new coal-fired power stations to supply the country's mines
and refineries.


The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the
government is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas).
* Distributing energy-efficient light bulbs.
* Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Paul Rudin wrote:
John Ionides writes:

On Feb 7, 1:52 am, "RW" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
. net...
We need platinum to make low emission cars.
To make platinum, takes power.
~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations.
Thus increasing emissions of CO2.
Or go nuclear.. ;-)
Question....

Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some
friends.

Come off it, RW. TNP may revel in his almost troll-like status but
the attached article is really quite interesting (well, I thought so
anyway; but maybe I'm just a political nerd :-)


No doubt there are newsgroups intended to cater for such
nerdery. uk.d-i-y is supposed to be about entirely different nerdery


The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.

I do DIY for a living & don't give a toss about greenwash.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 7 Feb, 18:48, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


I do DIY for a living ..


Isn't that some sort of contradiction?

T

On 7 Feb, 12:42, TheOldFellow wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:14:16 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)

snip

OK, so how do you DIY Platiunum recovery from the cat in the car I'm
about to scrap? I'm thinking solar furnace, but is that allowed under
Part P? In a kitchen? (I don't want to waste the heat)

R.

I think solar furnaces in a domestic cooking environment are covered
by Part Z.

I've had a stressful day and gone a bit mad.

T

wrote:
On 7 Feb, 18:48, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

I do DIY for a living ..


Isn't that some sort of contradiction?

T

Well he is self employed, so no, he 'does it himself'

TheOldFellow wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:14:16 +0000
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)
snip

OK, so how do you DIY Platiunum recovery from the cat in the car I'm
about to scrap? I'm thinking solar furnace, but is that allowed under
Part P? In a kitchen? (I don't want to waste the heat)

R.

Dunno, but catalysts are probably valuable things scrap wise.

wrote:
On 7 Feb, 02:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.
...
The problem is the chronic electricity shortages in South Africa. All of
the greenhouse gases produced last month by the conferees in Davos did
not result in this problem being "addressed", as their organisers would
put it. Now the only way to maintain existing clean air standards in the
developed world is to build and operate, as rapidly as possible, a
series of new coal-fired power stations to supply the country's mines
and refineries.


The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the
government is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas).
* Distributing energy-efficient light bulbs.
* Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T
Is that the government that reckoned smoking dried banana skins would
cure AIDS?

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.

I do DIY for a living & don't give a toss about greenwash.

No you don't do DIY for a living. The point about DIY is you're not spending
money on somebody else's time to do it. You may be doing the same tasks, but
it isn't DIY, by definition.

clive

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:48:34 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Paul Rudin wrote:
John Ionides writes:

On Feb 7, 1:52 am, "RW" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
. net...
We need platinum to make low emission cars. To make platinum, takes
power.
~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations.
Thus increasing emissions of CO2.
Or go nuclear.. ;-)
Question....

Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some
friends.

Come off it, RW. TNP may revel in his almost troll-like status but
the attached article is really quite interesting (well, I thought so
anyway; but maybe I'm just a political nerd :-)


No doubt there are newsgroups intended to cater for such nerdery.
uk.d-i-y is supposed to be about entirely different nerdery

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.

I do DIY for a living & don't give a toss about greenwash.

Much the same here. I do give a toss about greenwash - I hate it. I
think that's because of the mixture of ignorant [1], self-righteousness
[2] and anxiety driven [3] hogwash.

[1] Mostly of basic science - secondary school level in the main.

[2] The only people who live at a planet-average (is that sustainable?)
level in this country are the very poorest and/or homeless. Groups that
almost nobody wishes to be part of.
Square up to the fact that if you live here that means you are part of
the 'problem' not the 'solution', come to terms with the fact, and then
get on with your life.

[3] 'Bad' things may well be around the corner but it the dangers are
often over stated and put into simplistic all-or-nothing terms. Whilst
thee are a myriad of ways things can go bad there are also a myriad of
responses that people can make in response.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:06:54 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

wrote:
On 7 Feb, 02:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.
...
The problem is the chronic electricity shortages in South Africa. All
of the greenhouse gases produced last month by the conferees in Davos
did not result in this problem being "addressed", as their organisers
would put it. Now the only way to maintain existing clean air
standards in the developed world is to build and operate, as rapidly
as possible, a series of new coal-fired power stations to supply the
country's mines and refineries.


The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the government
is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas). * Distributing
energy-efficient light bulbs. * Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T
Is that the government that reckoned smoking dried banana skins would
cure AIDS?

ROTFL


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On 2008-02-07 06:52:49 +0000, "RW" said:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
We need platinum to make low emission cars.

To make platinum, takes power.

~To generate power, S Africa needs to build coal power stations. Thus
increasing emissions of CO2.

Or go nuclear.. ;-)


Question....


Why bother a UK DIY newsgroup with this crap?

If you need conversation responses go down the pub and make some friends.

.... and your regular and useful contribution is what, precisely?

On 2008-02-07 12:13:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.


I posted that lot up because it shows how silly a 'knee jerk' 'coal is
bad' type response can really make nonsense unless its examined in the
overall context of a complex global economy.

"Four legs good. Two legs bad"

(Trouble is that it snowballs)



As with CFL bulbs, for example, which is a thread that was done to
death without anyone complaining..CFL bulbs are barely DIY either.

And finally, unlike most other groups. uk.d-i-y is populated by a
rather larger number of articulate and intelligent people than most.

So I thought it would in any case be interesting.

As far as going down the pub goes, its expensive, it involves alcohol
and driving, they won't let you smoke, and the people there arer boring
beyond belief.

But there is life beyond Bury St. Edmunds.

On 2008-02-07 20:53:21 +0000, August West said:

"Clive George" writes:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.

I do DIY for a living & don't give a toss about greenwash.

No you don't do DIY for a living. The point about DIY is you're not
spending money on somebody else's time to do it. You may be doing the
same tasks, but it isn't DIY, by definition.

Perhaps he means he takes money to do half-arsed, badly executed, work,
using cheap, and unsuitable,a materials -- like most D-I-Y (judging from
what I've seen in houses I didn't buy)?

Clearly they weren't uk.d-i-y regulars where this wouldn't be tolerated.

Did you try looking outside Milton Keynes at all?

On 2008-02-07 21:50:44 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:06:54 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the government
is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas). * Distributing
energy-efficient light bulbs. * Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T
Is that the government that reckoned smoking dried banana skins would
cure AIDS?

ROTFL

It's funny in so many ways and so sad in others.

I think that one has to begin by realising that the northern
hemisphere/western Europe way of life is a comparatively narrow
perception of humanity and that outside it the boundaries are hugely
wider.

I've been going periodically to southern Africa for over 20 years and
have numerous friends in various sub Saharan countries. The changes
that have happened and continue to happen are minimally good but
maximally bad from the perspective of the benefit of all of the
population.

For example:

- At a land crossing between South Africa and Botswana a large sign
warning the hapless tourist that the HIV infection rate in Botswana is
1 in 7. This is a country with relatively good economy, education and
small population That was a few years ago. Almost certainly worse now.

- In the men's toilets of a major corporation in South Africa, condoms
in baskets free for the taking, not even machines.

- Street names being changed in order to erase history. Mugabe began
that idea in Zimbabwe.

- People being held up at gunpoint in their homes. Black people in
middle income areas.


Dried banana skins are but a short step from this.

Look across the skyline at any township from about April onwards and it
is thick with smoke from the burning of coal. Look at black fug
belching out of trucks and vans because nobody is policing emissions or
fixing vehicles.

This was the developed world in one sense. Has it moved forward? In
one way yes. In many ways it is moving rapidly in the opposite
direction.

All of that is before the profligate use of fuel in oil producing
nations is considered. Petrol prices in Russia are around a third of
those in western Europe, for example, and in Gulf states even less.

I don't see people in these places giving a **** about carbon
emissions or anything else.

Yet we continue to believe in the north west part of the world that we
can lead by example. Frankly, we are kidding ourselves because the
other three quarters is laughing at our stupidity.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-07 12:13:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.


I posted that lot up because it shows how silly a 'knee jerk' 'coal is
bad' type response can really make nonsense unless its examined in the
overall context of a complex global economy.

"Four legs good. Two legs bad"

(Trouble is that it snowballs)



As with CFL bulbs, for example, which is a thread that was done to
death without anyone complaining..CFL bulbs are barely DIY either.

And finally, unlike most other groups. uk.d-i-y is populated by a
rather larger number of articulate and intelligent people than most.

So I thought it would in any case be interesting.

As far as going down the pub goes, its expensive, it involves alcohol
and driving, they won't let you smoke, and the people there arer
boring beyond belief.

But there is life beyond Bury St. Edmunds.




Of a sort..;-)

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-07 21:50:44 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:06:54 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the government
is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas). * Distributing
energy-efficient light bulbs. * Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T
Is that the government that reckoned smoking dried banana skins would
cure AIDS?

ROTFL

It's funny in so many ways and so sad in others.

I think that one has to begin by realising that the northern
hemisphere/western Europe way of life is a comparatively narrow
perception of humanity and that outside it the boundaries are hugely wider.

I've been going periodically to southern Africa for over 20 years and
have numerous friends in various sub Saharan countries. The changes
that have happened and continue to happen are minimally good but
maximally bad from the perspective of the benefit of all of the population.

For example:

- At a land crossing between South Africa and Botswana a large sign
warning the hapless tourist that the HIV infection rate in Botswana is 1
in 7. This is a country with relatively good economy, education and
small population That was a few years ago. Almost certainly worse now.

- In the men's toilets of a major corporation in South Africa, condoms
in baskets free for the taking, not even machines.

- Street names being changed in order to erase history. Mugabe began
that idea in Zimbabwe.

- People being held up at gunpoint in their homes. Black people in
middle income areas.


Dried banana skins are but a short step from this.

Look across the skyline at any township from about April onwards and it
is thick with smoke from the burning of coal. Look at black fug
belching out of trucks and vans because nobody is policing emissions or
fixing vehicles.

This was the developed world in one sense. Has it moved forward? In
one way yes. In many ways it is moving rapidly in the opposite direction.

All of that is before the profligate use of fuel in oil producing
nations is considered. Petrol prices in Russia are around a third of
those in western Europe, for example, and in Gulf states even less.

I don't see people in these places giving a **** about carbon emissions
or anything else.

Yet we continue to believe in the north west part of the world that we
can lead by example. Frankly, we are kidding ourselves because the
other three quarters is laughing at our stupidity.




Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Andy Hall wrote:

But there is life beyond Bury St. Edmunds.

Not for St Edmund...

Jon
--
SPAM BLOCK IN USE! To reply in email, replace 'deadspam'
with 'green-lines'.

In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius has
some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal
survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius has
some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

In article 47ab828a@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:

"Four legs good. Two legs bad"

(Trouble is that it snowballs)

Bipedalism was a big step forwards...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius
has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-07 12:13:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.


I posted that lot up because it shows how silly a 'knee jerk' 'coal
is bad' type response can really make nonsense unless its examined
in the overall context of a complex global economy.

"Four legs good. Two legs bad"

(Trouble is that it snowballs)



As with CFL bulbs, for example, which is a thread that was done to
death without anyone complaining..CFL bulbs are barely DIY either.

And finally, unlike most other groups. uk.d-i-y is populated by a
rather larger number of articulate and intelligent people than most.

So I thought it would in any case be interesting.

As far as going down the pub goes, its expensive, it involves alcohol
and driving, they won't let you smoke, and the people there arer
boring beyond belief.

But there is life beyond Bury St. Edmunds.

Anyone else remember DJ Johnie Walker reading out a request from someone at;

Bury St.
Edmunds.
Suffolk.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In message 47ab828a@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes
On 2008-02-07 12:13:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:
The point is, that a lot of people are doing a lot of DIY that are
seriously interested in reducing waste, and carbon emmissions.
I posted that lot up because it shows how silly a 'knee jerk' 'coal
is bad' type response can really make nonsense unless its examined in
the overall context of a complex global economy.

"Four legs good. Two legs bad"

(Trouble is that it snowballs)


As with CFL bulbs, for example, which is a thread that was done to
death without anyone complaining..CFL bulbs are barely DIY either.
And finally, unlike most other groups. uk.d-i-y is populated by a
rather larger number of articulate and intelligent people than most.
So I thought it would in any case be interesting.
As far as going down the pub goes, its expensive, it involves
alcohol and driving, they won't let you smoke, and the people there
arer boring beyond belief.

But there is life beyond Bury St. Edmunds.

No - just an afterlife


--
geoff

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on
Fri, 8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down
near freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal
survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius
has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.



Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

So alls not totally awry in the world.

On 2008-02-08 23:41:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius
has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.



Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

So alls not totally awry in the world.

There's bunch of Russians (5) sitting on the table next to me who
have ordered their second bottle of Ð*уÑ�Ñ�кий Стандарт Водка. They
don't think that all is totally awry either.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 23:41:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on
Fri, 8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down
near freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal
survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to
by buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a
Prius has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.



Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

So alls not totally awry in the world.

There's bunch of Russians (5) sitting on the table next to me who have
ordered their second bottle of Ð*уÑ�Ñ�кий Стандарт Водка. They don't
think that all is totally awry either.





Is that Russian for Polonium 238?

;-)

On 2008-02-09 00:09:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 23:41:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius
has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.



Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

So alls not totally awry in the world.

There's bunch of Russians (5) sitting on the table next to me who
have ordered their second bottle of Ð*уÑ�Ñ�кий Стандарт Водка. They
don't think that all is totally awry either.





Is that Russian for Polonium 238?



;-)


I'll Czech and ask them.

They're on bottle 4 now. The bar people had been bringing glasses of
orange juice for the ladies. This time, the ladies asked that less
ice was put into the orange juice because it didn't allow enough space
for the Водка

The scary thing is that they are showing no signs at all of becoming ****ed.

In uk.d-i-y, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

AAMOI how? I can't even get a glass of rubbish Chianti these days, never
mind a bottle of the decent stuff, for 1/3d.

--
Mike Barnes

On Feb 8, 7:21 pm, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-09 00:09:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:



Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 23:41:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-08 11:46:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:59:50 on Fri,
8 Feb 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Indeed. If you are living in a tin shack in Soweto, and its down near
freezing, you are going to light up some coal.

The future of the planet takes second base after your own personal survival.

We can lead by example, but what a sorry example we are setting..

Not helped by people thinking they've done everything they need to by
buying a few paper garbage sacks, a couple of CFLs, and that a Prius
has some sort of mystery negative carbon footprint.

Precisely.

I want a BEV. Probably only a couple of years away.

I want a bevvy. Probably only a couple of minutes away.

Well I had a 1/3d bottle of a very decent Chianti.

So alls not totally awry in the world.

There's bunch of Russians (5) sitting on the table next to me who
have ordered their second bottle of òÕÓÓËÉÊ óÔÁÎÄÁÒÔ ÷ÏÄËÁ. They
don't think that all is totally awry either.

Is that Russian for Polonium 238?

;-)

I'll Czech and ask them.

They're on bottle 4 now. The bar people had been bringing glasses of
orange juice for the ladies. This time, the ladies asked that less
ice was put into the orange juice because it didn't allow enough space
for the ÷ÏÄËÁ

The scary thing is that they are showing no signs at all of becoming ****ed.


It is something strange I have noticed about drinking vodka Russian-
style - it seems perfectly possible to drain a bottle between three
people and still feel just slightly tipsy, and annoyingly chirpy the
next morning too. If I tried drinking that in pints I would be a
blithering mess, and probably a write-off for a few days.

Maybe it is just the quality of the hlebnoe vino, though.

J

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-07 21:50:44 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:06:54 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The power shortages in South Africa have been addressed; the government
is proposing the following:

* Promoting solar water heaters and solar-power traffic and street
lights.
* Introducing liquefied petroleum gas (LP gas). * Distributing
energy-efficient light bulbs. * Introducing power rationing.
* Putting pressure on the coal industry, which is exporting its best
quality coal, to provide local power stations with a higher quality
coal.

So you see, there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself about -
it's completely under control!

T
Is that the government that reckoned smoking dried banana skins would
cure AIDS?

ROTFL

It's funny in so many ways and so sad in others.



Indeed, some years ago my firm (medical publishing) went to Johannesburg
for the World Aids Conference.

One of my friends went on safari and had to hire a car and drive all the
way to where the big game park was. When I asked how people get around
there generally he said that they'd attempted to set up a public
transport bus system, but it only lasted a short while as many of the
bus drivers were shot dead.

Apparently they been taking trade away from the private combi vans...