Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur 51 wrote:
Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur,

You would be better off 'shooting' the boards with a 'jointing' plane and
using the 'rubbed' glue joint method as opposed to t&g for finished
joinery - there are various methods for doing this by the way.

A couple of reasons why:

1 - If you use t&g you won't have enough area for the glue to hold properly.
2 - That area will have 'hollows' in the surface from the machining
process - which will again reduce the glue area to the tops of these
'hollows'
3 - The above may well lead to shrinkage after gluing - and certainly will
if the joint isn't glued.

As a matter of interest, if you are having difficulty in sourcing your
materials, have you tried a local sawmill - see the link for a list -
http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-1713-Sawmills?

If there is one near to you, you should have no trouble getting them to cut
your material to size - especially oak or beech.


Brian G - not a stair expert by the way, just an old chippie.

On 17 Jul, 12:12, "Brian G" wrote:
Arthur 51 wrote:
Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur,

You would be better off 'shooting' the boards with a 'jointing' plane and
using the 'rubbed' glue joint method as opposed to t&g for finished
joinery - there are various methods for doing this by the way.

A couple of reasons why:

1 - If you use t&g you won't have enough area for the glue to hold properly.
2 - That area will have 'hollows' in the surface from the machining
process - which will again reduce the glue area to the tops of these
'hollows'
3 - The above may well lead to shrinkage after gluing - and certainly will
if the joint isn't glued.

As a matter of interest, if you are having difficulty in sourcing your
materials, have you tried a local sawmill - see the link for a list -http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-1713-Sawmills?

If there is one near to you, you should have no trouble getting them to cut
your material to size - especially oak or beech.

Brian G - not a stair expert by the way, just an old chippie.

Is 'Shooting' the cutting of a square groove on one edge and square-
ish tongue on the mating edge?

Arthur

On 17 Jul, 12:12, "Brian G" wrote:
Arthur 51 wrote:
Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur,

You would be better off 'shooting' the boards with a 'jointing' plane and
using the 'rubbed' glue joint method as opposed to t&g for finished
joinery - there are various methods for doing this by the way.

A couple of reasons why:

1 - If you use t&g you won't have enough area for the glue to hold properly.
2 - That area will have 'hollows' in the surface from the machining
process - which will again reduce the glue area to the tops of these
'hollows'
3 - The above may well lead to shrinkage after gluing - and certainly will
if the joint isn't glued.

As a matter of interest, if you are having difficulty in sourcing your
materials, have you tried a local sawmill - see the link for a list -http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-1713-Sawmills?

If there is one near to you, you should have no trouble getting them to cut
your material to size - especially oak or beech.

Brian G - not a stair expert by the way, just an old chippie.

Will this cutter do?
http://tinyurl.com/247ycw

Arthur

Hmmm - planing a long edge square is quite a challenge for a novice -
especially one that hasn't even used a router before. Hopefully he can
get fully squared up boards that don't require it.

I'd agree, butt join the boards - but ideally with biscuits (which
makes getting the two boards dead level a trivial task). Glue with
cascamite or polyurethane, and sash cramp up.

On 17 Jul, 12:44, " wrote:
Hmmm - planing a long edge square is quite a challenge for a novice -
especially one that hasn't even used a router before. Hopefully he can
get fully squared up boards that don't require it.

I'd agree, butt join the boards - but ideally with biscuits (which
makes getting the two boards dead level a trivial task). Glue with
cascamite or polyurethane, and sash cramp up.

Thanks.
Should I use as many biscuits as I can fit or space them out?

Arthur

wrote:
Hmmm - planing a long edge square is quite a challenge for a novice -
especially one that hasn't even used a router before. Hopefully he can
get fully squared up boards that don't require it.

I'd agree, butt join the boards - but ideally with biscuits (which
makes getting the two boards dead level a trivial task). Glue with
cascamite or polyurethane, and sash cramp up.

Or even blind screw battens underneath to hold em together.

Making broad thin planks is a fair recipe for cracking and splitting
anyway..as humidity varies over the year..

Unless you want to see exposed wood, always use MDF. Its a far more
stable material.

Or make the treads from MDF with a hardwood nose and a hardwood veneer
on top.

I love natural wood..but I accept its severe limitations in terms of
fine accurate structural work. I.e. you need to go to extreme lengths to
accommodate its movement, or constrain it.

Should I use as many biscuits as I can fit or space them out?

As many as you can be bothered with. Biscuits are dirt cheap. I would
stack them though (one directly under the other), and place them
horizontally every 9 inches say.

I bought a biscuit jointer specifically to do what you propose - edge
jointing boards for stair treads - and was surprised just how quick
and easy biscuiting is.

Arthur 51 wrote:
On 17 Jul, 12:12, "Brian G" wrote:
Arthur 51 wrote:
Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered
a 1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur,

You would be better off 'shooting' the boards with a 'jointing'
plane and
using the 'rubbed' glue joint method as opposed to t&g for finished
joinery - there are various methods for doing this by the way.

A couple of reasons why:

1 - If you use t&g you won't have enough area for the glue to hold
properly. 2 - That area will have 'hollows' in the surface from the
machining
process - which will again reduce the glue area to the tops of these
'hollows'
3 - The above may well lead to shrinkage after gluing - and
certainly will
if the joint isn't glued.

As a matter of interest, if you are having difficulty in sourcing
your
materials, have you tried a local sawmill - see the link for a list
-http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-1713-Sawmills?

If there is one near to you, you should have no trouble getting them
to cut
your material to size - especially oak or beech.

Brian G - not a stair expert by the way, just an old chippie.

Is 'Shooting' the cutting of a square groove on one edge and square-
ish tongue on the mating edge?

Arthur

Arthur,

The 'shooting' of a board is to plane the edge true and square thus removing
the tiny hollows left by the planer or router cutters which can cause
problems when gluing up.

Brian G

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:46:35 +0100, "Brian G"
wrote:

Arthur 51 wrote:
On 17 Jul, 12:12, "Brian G" wrote:
Arthur 51 wrote:
Hi all.
Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered
a 1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

Thanks.

Arthur

Arthur,

You would be better off 'shooting' the boards with a 'jointing'
plane and
using the 'rubbed' glue joint method as opposed to t&g for finished
joinery - there are various methods for doing this by the way.

A couple of reasons why:

1 - If you use t&g you won't have enough area for the glue to hold
properly. 2 - That area will have 'hollows' in the surface from the
machining
process - which will again reduce the glue area to the tops of these
'hollows'
3 - The above may well lead to shrinkage after gluing - and
certainly will
if the joint isn't glued.

As a matter of interest, if you are having difficulty in sourcing
your
materials, have you tried a local sawmill - see the link for a list
-http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-1713-Sawmills?

If there is one near to you, you should have no trouble getting them
to cut
your material to size - especially oak or beech.

Brian G - not a stair expert by the way, just an old chippie.

Is 'Shooting' the cutting of a square groove on one edge and square-
ish tongue on the mating edge?

Arthur

Arthur,

The 'shooting' of a board is to plane the edge true and square thus removing
the tiny hollows left by the planer or router cutters which can cause
problems when gluing up.

The point of shooting is that the planing doesn't have to be exactly
square, just straight.. As long as you shoot both boards together any
inaccuracy of 'squareness' will be cancelled out when you place them
edge to edge.

--
Frank Erskine

I agree about the battens. And yes thin boards tend to cup and split.
Choosing thicker boards is good (making it easier to accommodate
stacked biscuits) - and hardwood nosing on manufactured board will
yield boards that will slip nicely into routed housings. However edge
jointing timber boards with modern glues can yield very good results.

Arthur 51 wrote:

Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

I think I would go with a butt joint, with some biscuits for alignment.
An alternative would be to make an "engineered" tread, which is a MDF
base board, with a real wood layer on top. That gets you the best of
both worlds, the look of the real wood, and the dimensional stability of
MDF. Cheaper than solid hard wood as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Arthur 51 wrote:

Finding 10" by 1" oak or beech is not very easy. So having ordered a
1/2" router
I can now consider T & G two 5" wide peices.(without bevelled join)
If I do some research on this will it be doable by a first timer or
expensive firewood?

I think I would go with a butt joint, with some biscuits for alignment. An
alternative would be to make an "engineered" tread, which is a MDF base
board, with a real wood layer on top. That gets you the best of both
worlds, the look of the real wood, and the dimensional stability of MDF.
Cheaper than solid hard wood as well.

--
I was looking thru ebay at that idea earlier. The engineered wood laminates
appealed
to me as you get real wood surface. However, a potential buyer might see a
downside
in thinking it wil wear out in 5 years and need replacing.. I like this
method as yo could use
a 10 or 12mm thick laminate on top of a 18mm mdf. requiring a 28 - 32mm
thick nosing.
It would be better to find a laminate with the deepest possible real wood
layer I think.

Arthur

Arthur2 wrote:

I was looking thru ebay at that idea earlier. The engineered wood laminates
appealed
to me as you get real wood surface. However, a potential buyer might see a
downside
in thinking it wil wear out in 5 years and need replacing.. I like this

The real engineered flooring materials have several mm of wood on top
(often about 6mm), such that you can sand them down a number of times.
They are in a different league to your typical laminate.

Something like:

http://www.vanillawoodfloors.co.uk/p...roducts_id=251

(the above is not a recommendation of the company - I have never used them)

could probably be used directly as a tread

It would be better to find a laminate with the deepest possible real wood
layer I think.

You could make your own just by gluing thinish real wood onto your mdf
base, and adding a suitable full depth nosing.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Arthur2 wrote:

I was looking thru ebay at that idea earlier. The engineered wood
laminates appealed
to me as you get real wood surface. However, a potential buyer might see
a downside
in thinking it wil wear out in 5 years and need replacing.. I like this

The real engineered flooring materials have several mm of wood on top
(often about 6mm), such that you can sand them down a number of times.
They are in a different league to your typical laminate.

Something like:

http://www.vanillawoodfloors.co.uk/p...roducts_id=251

(the above is not a recommendation of the company - I have never used
them)

could probably be used directly as a tread

It would be better to find a laminate with the deepest possible real wood
layer I think.

You could make your own just by gluing thinish real wood onto your mdf
base, and adding a suitable full depth nosing.


I think this thread got distracted by the 'shooter' discussion.
Whats wrong with a flush/trim cutter with the router?
One with a bearing diameter greater than the diameter of the cutter.

Piece of 6mm mdf gripping the wood from below via 2 half inch nails.

Must be easy.

Arthur

Arthur2 wrote:

I think this thread got distracted by the 'shooter' discussion.
Whats wrong with a flush/trim cutter with the router?

I think I am getting lost as well now ;-O

Which flush / trim cutter did you have in mind, and what were you
planning to do with it?

(you linked to a T&G cutter set before)

Flush trim cutters:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FLUSH-TRIM-KIT...QQcmdZViewItem

are fine if you want to trim an overhanging top layer of something back
to be flush with a base layer. Quite handy when glueing veneer over a
base board.

One with a bearing diameter greater than the diameter of the cutter.

How much greater?

Piece of 6mm mdf gripping the wood from below via 2 half inch nails.

What wood?

If you mean how to join square edged planks into a stair tread, then
glue and biscuits will work well.

Must be easy.

Probably is, but I think some detail is escaping my grasp at the moment.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Arthur2 wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Arthur2 wrote:

I was looking thru ebay at that idea earlier. The engineered wood
laminates appealed
to me as you get real wood surface. However, a potential buyer
might see a downside
in thinking it wil wear out in 5 years and need replacing.. I like
this

The real engineered flooring materials have several mm of wood on top
(often about 6mm), such that you can sand them down a number of
times. They are in a different league to your typical laminate.

Something like:

http://www.vanillawoodfloors.co.uk/p...roducts_id=251

(the above is not a recommendation of the company - I have never used
them)

could probably be used directly as a tread

It would be better to find a laminate with the deepest possible
real wood layer I think.

You could make your own just by gluing thinish real wood onto your
mdf base, and adding a suitable full depth nosing.


I think this thread got distracted by the 'shooter' discussion.
Whats wrong with a flush/trim cutter with the router?
One with a bearing diameter greater than the diameter of the cutter.

Piece of 6mm mdf gripping the wood from below via 2 half inch nails.

Must be easy.

Arthur

Arthur,

One of my replies to you has failed to appear - but when you machine a board
with any form of circular cutter it leaves the shape of that cutter in it
(albeit minutely in the scheme of things) that can be described as 'waves'.

Briefly, if you glue two boards together without any further planing
(shooting) then the glue will only stick to the high points of the 'wave'
thus reducing strength and the boards will also be prone to joint splitting
when in use - this will apply equally to the traditional 'cut' timber and
manufactured board such as MDF, plywood, weyroc etc.

As a matter of interest, did you look at the drawings of a stairs and
riser/tread details that I posted for your information on tinypics.com.
Those drawings use stock timber that should be readily available in almost
any builders merchants or timber yards (the likes of B&Q are unlikely to do
so) and available in most of the common species of timber as stock - and the
less common on 'special' order.

My personal advice (if you intend to make these stairs) would be to 'stick'
with a natural timber of around 14 - 18% moisture content and of the correct
sizes to avoid jointing, read a good textbook on the subject - especially
for the most important part - the setting-out.

The setting out is *vital* as all the risers *MUST* be of the same height
and the treads the same thickness and depth to avoid trips and falls - and
this applies to whatever materials you use.


Brian G

The setting out is *vital* as all the risers *MUST* be of the same height
and the treads the same thickness and depth to avoid trips and falls - and
this applies to whatever materials you use.

Of course all real world stairs will have some variation, however
small. I'd be interested to hear what the limits in acceptable error
is.

I've just built my first stair, in a chapel conversion - so there's a
lot of variation in the building to accommodate.

Mine is a u-shaped stair, climbing 3.2m in 5,2,11 steps (superimposed
made up treads and risers on top of rough carcassed carriages), and
the error on the going probably 3mm variation (in 285mm), error in
rising 4mm (in 178mm) - apart from the bottom step where a twist in
the ground floor relative to the upper floor resulted in a 10mm
variation at one side (of a 1200mm wide stairway). With hindsight, I
would have made more effort to spread that 2mm at a time over the
bottom 5 steps.

Now I've tried to detect the error by walking up and down in every
conceivable pattern - but other than measuring it, I can neither see
it nor detect it walking up and down.

I seem to vaguely recall 10mm as being the figure for variation in the
rise that's likely to be detectable.

On 18 Jul, 00:06, John Rumm wrote:
Arthur2 wrote:
I think this thread got distracted by the 'shooter' discussion.
Whats wrong with a flush/trim cutter with the router?

I think I am getting lost as well now ;-O

Which flush / trim cutter did you have in mind, and what were you
planning to do with it?

(you linked to a T&G cutter set before)

Flush trim cutters:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FLUSH-TRIM-KIT...M-LAMINATE-FRE...

are fine if you want to trim an overhanging top layer of something back
to be flush with a base layer. Quite handy when glueing veneer over a
base board.

One with a bearing diameter greater than the diameter of the cutter.

How much greater?

Piece of 6mm mdf gripping the wood from below via 2 half inch nails.

What wood?


To clarify.

-----------------------------------|
wood for tread |
|
|
|
--------------------|-------------|
6mm mdf | |
--------------------|-------|
---
3/4" nail

The cutter will be a flush trimmer of say 3/8" diameter using
a 1/2" diameter bearing. The bearing will run against the mdf.

If you mean how to join square edged planks into a stair tread, then
glue and biscuits will work well.

Must be easy.

Probably is, but I think some detail is escaping my grasp at the moment.

Arthur 51 wrote:

To clarify.

[modifying ASCII diagram to work in a fixed pitch font!]

-----------------------------------|
wood for tread |
|
|
|
---------------------|-------------|
6mm mdf | |
---------------------|--------|
---
3/4" nail

The cutter will be a flush trimmer of say 3/8" diameter using
a 1/2" diameter bearing. The bearing will run against the mdf.

OK, I can see what you are doing, but not sure why. Is the MDF just to
increase the hardwood thickness? In the above diagram, where would the
riser meet the tread, at the point the MDF stops?

I would have though a screwing and gluing would be better than a nail in
the above situation.

A more usual layout would be:

------------------------------------\ P
A | |
-------------------------------| |
| B |
C | |
|---| |
---------------------------| D |----/ P

A = 6mm hardwood layer,
B = Hardwood nosing,
C = MDF core,
D = Routed rebate for top of riser
P = Pencil round or chamfer to take the arris off the nosing.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:

I seem to vaguely recall 10mm as being the figure for variation in the
rise that's likely to be detectable.

You can easily end up with that much variation at the top or bottom just
in variation of floor covering thickness... I guess if every step was
10mm different from the previous, then you would feel it!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Arthur 51 wrote:

To clarify.

[modifying ASCII diagram to work in a fixed pitch font!]

-----------------------------------|
wood for tread |
|
|
|
---------------------|-------------|
6mm mdf | |
---------------------|--------|
---
3/4" nail

The cutter will be a flush trimmer of say 3/8" diameter using
a 1/2" diameter bearing. The bearing will run against the mdf.

OK, I can see what you are doing, but not sure why. Is the MDF just to
increase the hardwood thickness? In the above diagram, where would the
riser meet the tread, at the point the MDF stops?

I would have though a screwing and gluing would be better than a nail in
the above situation.

A more usual layout would be:

------------------------------------\ P
A | |
-------------------------------| |
| B |
C | |
|---| |
---------------------------| D |----/ P

A = 6mm hardwood layer,
B = Hardwood nosing,
C = MDF core,
D = Routed rebate for top of riser
P = Pencil round or chamfer to take the arris off the nosing.



The 6mm mdf is a 'jig' that will be removed after the router has done the
edge of the tread.
The bearing of the router bit will run against the mdf.
On fixing the mdf to the underside of the tread the edge of the mdf would be
just shy of
the edge of the tread. To be exact, before routing the edge, the overlap of
the tread over the mdf will
be the difference between the cutter diameter and diam of the bearing plus
an eighth.
The nails will go thru the mdf and then the tread will be pressed down on
the points to fix it in position.

Arthur

Arthur2 wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Arthur 51 wrote:

To clarify.
[modifying ASCII diagram to work in a fixed pitch font!]

-----------------------------------|
wood for tread |
|
|
|
---------------------|-------------|
6mm mdf | |
---------------------|--------|
---
3/4" nail

The cutter will be a flush trimmer of say 3/8" diameter using
a 1/2" diameter bearing. The bearing will run against the mdf.
OK, I can see what you are doing, but not sure why. Is the MDF just to
increase the hardwood thickness? In the above diagram, where would the
riser meet the tread, at the point the MDF stops?

I would have though a screwing and gluing would be better than a nail in
the above situation.

A more usual layout would be:

------------------------------------\ P
A | |
-------------------------------| |
| B |
C | |
|---| |
---------------------------| D |----/ P

A = 6mm hardwood layer,
B = Hardwood nosing,
C = MDF core,
D = Routed rebate for top of riser
P = Pencil round or chamfer to take the arris off the nosing.



The 6mm mdf is a 'jig' that will be removed after the router has done the
edge of the tread.
The bearing of the router bit will run against the mdf.
On fixing the mdf to the underside of the tread the edge of the mdf would be
just shy of
the edge of the tread. To be exact, before routing the edge, the overlap of
the tread over the mdf will
be the difference between the cutter diameter and diam of the bearing plus
an eighth.


Ah, ok this is just for getting a straight edge to the step. Sorry I
though you were planing on leaving the MDF there.

Yup that would work, as would fixing the MDF close to the edge and using
a standard flush trim bit. Personally I think I would just route along a
straight edge clamped to the tread a measured distance from the back.

Alternatively place your MDF pattern on top and use a pattern following
cutter, or simply a guide bush on the router.

When I did my stairs, I simply cut the treads to size with a circular
saw and a saw board, and then routed a bullnose on the nosings with two
passes of a bearing guided half round cutter - once from either side.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/