Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all the
pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that the
cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were different
standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What specifications
should I be looking for?

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications
should I be looking for?

I should be looking for a post from w_tom any minute now...

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 08/04/2007 18:13, DD wrote:

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that the
cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were different
standards of surge protection.

They may be cheap and crap, but regardless it might have come with an
£x,000 equipment guarantee ...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
On 08/04/2007 18:13, DD wrote:

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

They may be cheap and crap, but regardless it might have come with an
£x,000 equipment guarantee ...


They are Masterplug and only seem to come with a 3 year guarantee. They are
at least 7 years old (one is dated 1999) and we have looked and can't find
any receipts or the package inserts we thought we kept.

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:42:20 UTC, "Graham" wrote:


So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications
should I be looking for?

I should be looking for a post from w_tom any minute now...

You just beat me to it....await several hundred lines from him...!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In message , DD
writes
we have looked and can't find any receipts or the package inserts we
thought we kept.

Which is of course how their insurance works.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 18:13:00 +0100, "DD" someone@somewhere mused:

Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all the
pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that the
cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were different
standards of surge protection.

Yep, I got a load of cheap ones in a box full of miscellaneous cheap
crap I got cheap from somewhere years ago. They're still sat in the
box.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What specifications
should I be looking for?

How many sources are you looking to protect? The best solution is to
use a UPS, small ones around 350VA can be had for around 35-40GBP and
will mostly come with a connected equipment guarantee.

I have a 2KVA UPS protecting my PC, slightly OTT but it was sat doing
nothing at the time.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On 8 Apr, 18:13, "DD" someone@somewhere wrote:

Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all the
pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that the
cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were different
standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What specifications
should I be looking for?

The short answer is theyre a complete waste of time & money. You can
read up on it yourself if you wish, or not.


NT

On Apr 8, 3:14 pm, "DD" someone@somewhere wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.
...

They are Masterplug and only seem to come with a 3 year guarantee. They are
at least 7 years old (one is dated 1999) and we have looked and can't find
any receipts or the package inserts we thought we kept.

Its so called warranty is full of exceptions. That warranty is just
not honored as others before have learned. A big quid equipment
guarantees is essentially useless. Meanwhile real world protectors
mean no damage.

Multiple type of surges exist. Type that typically damages seeks
earth ground. Another will post a citation where page 42 Figure 8
shows a plug-in protector earthing a surge, 8000 volts destructively,
through the TV. That surge protector had no dedicated earthing wire
for the 'less than 3 meter' earthing connection. That earthing wire
is the difference between ineffective plug-in protectors and effective
solutions.

How to identify the ineffective protector? 1) No dedicated earthing
wire and 2) manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. Simple
rule. Notice your protectors and therefore resulting damage violated
both points.

Protectors are not protection. Protectors are simply a connecting
device between each utility wire and earth ground. No three meter
earthing wire? Then a surge protector must earth that surge maybe via
TV or computer.

Every wire incoming to the home is the equivalent of an antenna to
each appliance. Lightning seeks earth ground via antenna wires; as
via any other incoming utility wire. Effective protection must be
applied to every incoming utility wire. Earthing 'system' must be the
best earthing - often enhanced beyond what electrical codes demand.
Earthing - not the protector - defines protection.

An application noted demonstrates the principles:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Even buried wires must connect to that earthing electrode before
entering a structure.

Cable TV and dish satellite wires need no protector; connect 'less
than 3 meters' to that earthing electrode via a hardwire. AC electric
and telephone wires make that connection via a 'whole house'
protector. Some examples:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse06.htm
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/pdf/ma...lies/m2_m4.pdf
http://www.one.co.uk/catalogue/teleb...otect/22PX.HTM
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse11.htm
http://www.citelprotection.com/engli..._B380_B480.PDF
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse08.htm

An industry professional demonstrates the principle and its
effectiveness:
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years,
that you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a
routine basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not hard,
nor is it overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct
lightning strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down from
a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking
*them* out, ...
The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and
surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point
ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a
low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's most generally a low
*inductance* path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

How a surge protector connects a surge to earth defines an effective
or ineffective 'system'. No 'magic box' will stop or absorb what 4
kilometers of sky could not - as plug-in protectors claim.
Demonstrated by example: a plug-in protector without THE most critical
'system' component (single point earth ground) and damage resulted.
How do you know it will not be effective? No 'less than 3 meter'
earthing connection. No earth ground means no effective protection.

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:25:01 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

(usual rant)

See, we said he wouldn't be long. Ignore as usual....

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?

Get a Belkin one.

Sylvain.

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:56:17 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:


"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?

Get a Belkin one.

I think he wanted a good one.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:56:17 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:


"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few
electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for
all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover
that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?

Get a Belkin one.

I think he wanted a good one.

Exactly. Belkin don't do cheap stuff, and have a good reputation. You must
be thinking of some other brand.

Sylvain.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:22:15 GMT, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
mused:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:56:17 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:


"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few
electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for
all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover
that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?

Get a Belkin one.

I think he wanted a good one.

Exactly. Belkin don't do cheap stuff, and have a good reputation. You must
be thinking of some other brand.

Nope, Belkin are definitely crap.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:22:15 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:56:17 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:


"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few
electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for
all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover
that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?

Get a Belkin one.

I think he wanted a good one.

Exactly. Belkin don't do cheap stuff, and have a good reputation. You must
be thinking of some other brand.

Of course...the one I'm thinking of is spelled B-E-L-K-I-N ...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:56:17 UTC, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:

snip..

Get a Belkin one.

I think he wanted a good one.

Exactly. Belkin don't do cheap stuff, and have a good reputation. You must
be thinking of some other brand.

*Ack* Good reputation my arse.

This is the Same Belkin that sold a router that redirected a small
percentage of HTTP requests to an ad site:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11...belkin_router/

Maybe their cables are OK, but as a company I don't buy anything from them
anymore on principle.

Tim

On Apr 9, 10:12 am, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:25:01 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

(usual rant)

See, we said he wouldn't be long. Ignore as usual....


Its amazing. You and Graham are psychics.

For good information on surges and surge protection try
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

The NIST guide is very readable. IEEE guide requires some (not much)
technical background. Surge information is completely generic.
Protection information is based on US, but differences to UK for
surges are pretty minor, primarily earthing.

Both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Suppressor ratings range from junk to very high. At high ratings a
manufacturer can warrantee both the suppressor and connected
equipment.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor. External wires like phone, cable TV, ... also
need to go thorough the suppressor. The voltage on ALL wires (power
and signal) to protected equipment needs to be clamped to the common
ground at the suppressor. This is described in both guides.

--
bud--

On 9 Apr, 16:12, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:25:01 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

(usual rant)

Ignore as usual....

Why? What's the problem with his post(s)?

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:39:37 UTC, "Andy Dingley"
wrote:

On 9 Apr, 16:12, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:25:01 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

(usual rant)

Ignore as usual....

Why? What's the problem with his post(s)?

He can bore for the US on this subject. Google him on many groups.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Apr 10, 7:22 am, "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
wrote:
I think he wanted a good one.

Exactly. Belkin don't do cheap stuff, and have a good reputation. You must
be thinking of some other brand.

Take a three quid power strip. Add some 10 pence parts. Sell it
for tens of pounds. Some call that quality because it costs more?
When did a higher price prove quality? Why is that Belkin with same
circuit superior to one sold in a grocery store? Hype and myth. Each
has the same circuit - MOVs strapped between wires. Only one is
blessed with holy water before leaving the factory.

How do we make lightning rods better? The naive will sharpen those
rods. The informed will improved earthing. Why? A lightning rod -
just like a surge protector - is only as effective as its earth
ground. Some will promote 'higher quality lightning rods' using myths
that also promote 'age defying creams' and 'quality surge protectors'.

Belkin is hype. If it was so good, then the Belkin would list each
type of transient AND provided numbers for protection from each type
of transient. Where are those numbers posted here? Where is the
quality? Belkin's own specifications do not provide numbers for
protection from the typically destructive types of surges. Go ahead.
Post those numbers that prove 'quality'?

No earth ground means no effective protection. Belkin avoids
earthing discussions hoping that junk science here - without facts or
numbers - will promote it. If the Belkin is so good, then where are
manufacturer specification numbers? Number not provided because
manufacturer does not even claim such protection.

Add some ten pence parts to a power strip, slap on a big name, and
suddenly it is superior to power strips with the same circuit?
Nonsense. Sell it for more quid and the naive will declare it
'quality'. No spec numbers; just miraculous knowledge that a 'magic
box' must be better quality. Belkin is recommended using the same
logic that recommends 'age defying creams'.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:00:48 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

box' must be better quality. Belkin is recommended using the same
logic that recommends 'age defying creams'.

While I agree about Belikn (as already stated), you have once again
chosen a bad example:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consume...cle_id=418955&
in_page_id=5

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Apr 10, 11:09 am, "bud--" wrote:
For good information on surges and surge protection try
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ublishedversio...
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

Go to that Bud citation Page 42 Figure 8. A plug-in protector
earths a surge - 8000 volts destructively - through the adjacent TV.
Why? Too far from earth ground and too close to transistors. IEEE
does not recommend what Bud posts. IEEE recommends in Standards.
IEEE Standards repeatedly define what is necessary for protection -
earth ground.

But Bud promotes for plug-in protectors. He follows me everywhere
as a troll promoting myths. Well look at Page 42 Figure 8.
Protectors do not stop or absorb what 4 kilometers of sky could not.
Protectors shunt (clamp, connect, bond) a surge to earth ground. In
Figure 8, what was the path to earth? Well protector was too far away
from the building earthing electrode. It had to make that 8000 volt
connection somewhere. So it earthed a surge, destructively, through
the TV.

Bud's citations show how plug-in protectors can work and can cause
damage. Bud own citation says an effective protector does this: page
6 (Adobe page 8) of
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Did Bud forget to mention that earthing is the protection; that a
protector is only the connection to earthing? Well plug-in protectors
don't have that earthing. Bud even insists earthing is not
necessary. Funny. Even his own citations define earthing as
necessary - as does the IEEE where recommendations are published - in
IEEE Standards.

No earth ground means any effective protection - which explains why
even big buck protectors permitted TV failure - maybe exactly like on
Page 42 Figure 8. The plug-in protector (too close to transistors and
too far from earth ground) shunted 8000 volts destructively through
the TV.

Informed consumers install and earth one 'whole house' protector
where those wires enter the building. All utilities connect 'less
than 3 meters' to that common ground. How might a protector damage
that TV? See page 42 Figure 8 where a plug-in protector earths a
surge - 8000 volts destructively - through an adjacent TV. A
protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Plug-in
protectors hope you never learn about their missing earthing wire.
Profits are just too excessive to be honest.

On Apr 10, 12:12 pm, "Bob Eager" wrote:
While I agree about Belikn (as already stated), you have once again
chosen a bad example:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consume...cle_id=418955&
in_page_id=5

As one doctor noted about miracle cures: if 1000 different solutions
exist for a disease, then it's a sure bet that none of them do
anything useful. Cough syrups were are another 'miracle cure'
industry. Why was he talking about cold remedies? Those cough syrups
may have been identified by their manufacturers of killing some small
children. Profits apparently were too high to be honest - just like
plug-in protectors.

The OP had a protector on his TV - and the TV was damaged. Bud's
own citation Page 42 Figure 8 shows how a plug-in protector can earth
8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. Plug-in protector
manufacturers know this. But when selling a three quid power strip
with a few pence of parts for tens of pounds, well, honesty is someone
else's responsibility. They have Bud to promote more myths.

Maybe we should blame the victim - the original poster - for his own
TV damage. Clearly a power strip protector was not at fault. Bud
tells us so..

On 10 Apr, 16:58, "Bob Eager" wrote:

Why? What's the problem with his post(s)?

He can bore for the US on this subject. Google him on many groups.

So there's nothing actually _wrong_ with what he writes, it's just
that you subjectively are bored in reading it?

Lots of things are "boring" until you have a need to know them.

"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?


Thanks for all the replies. Am cogitating and digesting the various
suggestions and comments.

I checked the earth wire and found it had unwound itself from the mains
downpipe...Uhhhh!

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:01:34 UTC, Huge
wrote:

On 2007-04-10, Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:39:37 UTC, "Andy Dingley"
wrote:

On 9 Apr, 16:12, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:25:01 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

(usual rant)

Ignore as usual....

Why? What's the problem with his post(s)?

He can bore for the US on this subject. Google him on many groups.

Weird English he writes. Is it his native tongue?

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/897.html

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...

"DD" someone@somewhere wrote in message
...
Not sure if this is the right place to ask and I know a few electricians
frequent this site so....

We did the right thing some time ago and bought surge protectors for all
the pc and entertainment equipment, or so we thought .........

A power surge last week and one fried tv later, and we now discover that
the cheap ones are hardly worth having! Did not realise there were
different standards of surge protection.

So can anyone recommend a good surge protector please? What
specifications should I be looking for?


Thanks for all the replies. Am cogitating and digesting the various
suggestions and comments.

I checked the earth wire and found it had unwound itself from the mains
downpipe...Uhhhh!
We use things like this at work after repeatedly having our ADSL modems
fried via both phone and mains lightening induced surges.
http://tinyurl.com/2l7l4t

Since fitting not had a dead modem. Fitted on a large board with phone and
ethernet filters (+large earth lead) so as to keep the unprotected wiring as
far as possible from the protected wiring (2 foot I seem to remember being
the key distance).

On Apr 10, 2:44 pm, "DD" someone@somewhere wrote:
I checked the earth wire and found it had unwound itself from the mains
downpipe...Uhhhh!

Earthing wire must not be wrapped around anything. That wrapping is
bad for same reasons why sharp wire bends compromises protection.
Essential that an earthing wire from every protector be short ('less
than 10 feet'), direct, separated from other non-earthing wires, no
splices, etc. Each earthing connection should be separate until all
meet at the single point earth ground at the service entrance. A
water pipe ground is typically too far away; therefore insufficient.
A short and direct connection to one dedicated earthing electrode or a
common connection to an earthing 'system' defines protection.

BTW, above discussions were only about secondary protection. That
secondary protection 'system' is defined by its central and essential
component - the earthing electrode. Your primary protection system is
also defined by the one component that defines that 'system' and also
should be inspected:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

On Apr 10, 11:27 am, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 10, 11:09 am, "bud--" wrote:

For good information on surges and surge protection try
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ublishedversio...
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

For the IEEE guide use
http://tinyurl.com/2qrszf


Go to that Bud citation Page 42 Figure 8. A plug-in protector
earths a surge - 8000 volts destructively - through the adjacent TV.
Why? Too far from earth ground and too close to transistors. IEEE
does not recommend what Bud posts. IEEE recommends in Standards.
IEEE Standards repeatedly define what is necessary for protection -
earth ground.
[The diagram shows a surge on a cable TV cable and 2 TVs, TV1 has a
plug-in suppressor.]
For those with minimal reading and thinking ability, the point of the
illustration, as stated in the text, is "to protect TV2, a second
multiport protector located at TV2 is required". And the protector did
not do anything to the adjacent TV. It protected TV1 and lowered the
surge voltage at TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.

The guide, published by the IEEE, says plug-in suppressors are
effective.


But Bud promotes for plug-in protectors.
To quote w_: "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger."

He follows me everywhere
as a troll promoting myths.
As many know w_ is evangelical in his belief and searches with google-
groups for "surge" so he can share his drivel on plug-in suppressors.
I recommend people read reliable sources.


Bud's citations show how plug-in protectors can work and can cause
damage.
For those with minimal ability to think, they show how plug-in
suppressors work and prevent damage.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Bud own citation says an effective protector does this: page
6 (Adobe page 8) of
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.
The question is not earthing. The *only* question is whether plug-in
suppressors work. About that the NIST guide says "this is the easiest
solution".



Did Bud forget to mention that earthing is the protection; that a
protector is only the connection to earthing? Well plug-in protectors
don't have that earthing.
w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since
plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot
possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by
clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common
ground at the suppressor.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in surge suppressors are
effective.

Bud even insists earthing is not
necessary. Funny. Even his own citations define earthing as
necessary - as does the IEEE where recommendations are published - in
IEEE Standards.
Bullcrap. I recommend reading the IEEE guide which includes earthing
as one of the major protection methods. I *repeat* the explanation in
the IEEE guide - plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not
earthing. But that violates w_'s religious belief.


No earth ground means any effective protection
The required statement of religious belief in earthing.


Both the IEEE and NIST guides both say plug-in suppressors are
effective. For reliable information read the guides.

As always, no links from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are not
effective. All you get are w_'s opinions based religious beliefs.
Where are supporting links??


Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work
No sources.
Distort or attempt to discredit opposing sources.
Attempt to discredit opponents.
w_ is a purveyor of junk science.

--
bud--

On 11 Apr, 13:56, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 10, 2:44 pm,

Earthing wire must not be wrapped around anything. That wrapping is
bad for same reasons why sharp wire bends compromises protection.
Essential that an earthing wire from every protector be short ('less
than 10 feet'), direct, separated from other non-earthing wires, no
splices, etc. Each earthing connection should be separate until all
meet at the single point earth ground at the service entrance.

I gather America has a much bigger problem with lightning induced
surges than over here.


NT

In message om,
writes
I gather America has a much bigger problem with lightning induced
surges than over here.

Much more overhead wiring outdoors.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

On Apr 11, 11:47 am, "bud--" wrote:
For those with minimal reading and thinking ability, the point of the
illustration, as stated in the text, is "to protect TV2, a second
multiport protector located at TV2 is required". And the protector did
not do anything to the adjacent TV. It protected TV1 and lowered the
surge voltage at TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.

With 100 electronic appliances in a home, Bud says spend $20 or
$100 for each plug-in protector for every 100+ household appliances.
Especially important are protectors on each bathroom and kitchen
GFCIs, smoke detectors, furnace, and other human life safety
electronics.

Oh. Protectors cannot be installed there? Oh. That would be $2000
or $10000 for protectors? Yes. Because Bud promotes for those
manufacturers, then an effective solution is not relevant to Bud. He
needs you to spend multiple thousands of dollars.

Page 42 Figure 8 (8000 volts destructively through adjacent
electronics) may happen when using plug-in protectors too far from
earth ground and too close to transistors.

But then your 911 Emergency response center, telephone company,
local TV and radio stations, ham radio operators, etc ... they don't
use plug-in protectors because effective protection is required. They
install a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

$1 per appliance for an effective protector - or $2000+ for
protectors that don't even claim to protect from typically destructive
surges. Bud recommends the $2000 and $10000 solution. He promotes
for plug-in protector manufacturers.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Missing
earth ground means no effective protection as demonstrated by Page 42
Figure 8.

Bud lies about what responsible organizations recommend. Even his
own NIST citation page 6 (Adobe page 8) is blunt about what a
protector does - :
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Divert it to ground. Earthing. An effective protector earths. Bud
tells us that earthing is not required - in direct contradiction to
his own citations.

Recommendations are in IEEE Standards. Multiple IEEE Standards
recommend earthing for protection. Bud hopes you never read these
numerous IEEE Standards. IEEE Red Book (Standard 142) is what Bud
cannot deny:
In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
process of interception of lightning produced surges,
diverting them to ground, and by altering their
associated wave shapes.

Bud must deny Page 42 Figure 8 because a plug-in protector earths
8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. No earth ground
meant no effective protection - and 8000 volts destructively through
an adjacent TV. Informed consumers install and earth one 'whole
house' protector. Responsible manufacturers such as GE, Leviton,
Intermatic, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, and Siemens make 'whole house'
protectors which are even available in Loews and Home Depot even for
less than $50. Bud would have you spend how much? He promotes plug-in
protectors.

In message , Huge
writes
Much more overhead wiring outdoors.

Combined with wooden houses and volunteer Fire Brigades.

But they're very enthusiastic!

Oh how they love to hang off the back of their fire truck and whoop and
yell as they zoom along the road. They truly are "heroes".

Do you know who they call out if a lift breaks down in America? No not
a lift engineer. They call out the fire service who then hack the door
open with crowbars.

God Bless America.

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

On Apr 11, 7:34 pm, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 11, 11:47 am, "bud--" wrote:

For those with minimal reading and thinking ability, the point of the
illustration, as stated in the text, is "to protect TV2, a second
multiport protector located at TV2 is required". And the protector did
not do anything to the adjacent TV. It protected TV1 and lowered the
surge voltage at TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.


A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Statement of religious belief in earthing. The IEEE says plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.
..

Bud lies about what responsible organizations recommend. Even his
own NIST citation page 6 (Adobe page 8) is blunt about what a
protector does - :
Ho-hum - repeating from the last post, the NIST guide says plug-in
suppressors are" the easiest solution".


Divert it to ground. Earthing. An effective protector earths. Bud
tells us that earthing is not required - in direct contradiction to
his own citations.
Religious belief in earthing #3. The question is not earthing but
*only* whether plug-in suppressors are effective. Both the IEEE and
NIST say they are.


Recommendations are in IEEE Standards. Multiple IEEE Standards
recommend earthing for protection. Bud hopes you never read these
numerous IEEE Standards. IEEE Red Book (Standard 142)
Because the IEEE guide contradicts w_'s religious view he has to
discredit it. But you really have to be stupid to think the IEEE
would publish a guide that contradicts the IEEE color books.

The IEEE guide, pdf page 4, makes it clear that the guide is peer-
reviewed within the IEEE and represents the views of the IEEE.

make 'whole house'
protectors which are even available in Loews and Home Depot even for
less than $50.
Geez - Loews and Home Depot are in the UK?? Can you pay in $$??


Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Still never seen - a link that say plug-in suppressors are NOT
effective. Just w_'s opinions based religious beliefs.

----
To meow
The central US gets warm humid air (high energy content) from the Gulf
of Mexico which collides with colder air from Canada. The result can
be strong thunderstorms which, in extreme cases, form tornadoes which
are small diameter but can have stronger winds than hurricanes. But
parts of Florida probably have a the most thunderstorms. Warm humid
air again. I would guess the UK is too far north to get as high energy
content air.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 11, 7:34 pm, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 11, 11:47 am, "bud--" wrote:

For those with minimal reading and thinking ability, the point of the
illustration, as stated in the text, is "to protect TV2, a second
multiport protector located at TV2 is required". And the protector did
not do anything to the adjacent TV. It protected TV1 and lowered the
surge voltage at TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.


A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Statement of religious belief in earthing. The IEEE says plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.

Clamping to what?

dennis@home wrote:



The IEEE says plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.


Clamping to what?


“Grounding” in the following is “earthing” in the UK. It is not obvious
to me what the syntax is using earthing. Earthing as used in posts by w_
and me usually indicates a connection to the dirt/earth.

“Clamping” is to the common ground at the plug-in suppressor. For a TV
with cable connection, both power and cable need to go through the
suppressor. The cable shield connects to the power “earthing” wire at
the suppressor and the voltage on other wires is clamped to that point.

An illustration in the IEEE guide, starting pdf page 40, shows a
lightning induced surge hitting cable TV supply wiring. The surge
current lifts the cable TV ground reference away from the power ground
reference so cable TV leads are 10,000V different from the power. This
shows up at any TV connected to power and a cable lead, and the TV won’t
like it. A plug–in suppressor clamps the voltage on both the cable and
power wires to the ground reference at the suppressor. The voltages
reaching the TV are at a safe voltage.

According to the NIST guide, US insurance information indicates
equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem
connection, TVs and video recorders (presumably with cable TV
connections). All can be damaged by voltages between power and signal
ground references.

--
bud--

In article ,
Huge writes:
On 2007-04-11, Clive Mitchell wrote:
In message om,
writes
I gather America has a much bigger problem with lightning induced
surges than over here.

Much more overhead wiring outdoors.

Combined with wooden houses and volunteer Fire Brigades.

Oh, don't forget the _aluminum_ wiring, wirenuts, ...

Whereas we use wood and aluminium to make fireworks, and
along with most of the rest of the world, banned Screwits
about 60 years ago, although strangely they do look a bit
like exposives fuses;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Apr 12, 1:09 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
Clamping to what?

Clamping to earth ground. Destructive surges seek earth ground.
Surges enter on any wire to find earth ground, destructively, via
electronic appliances. Or surges are shunted (clamped, bonded,
diverted, connected, equalized) to earth ground without damage.

Bud is promoting for plug-in protector manufacturers. Since those
protectors have no earthing connection, then Bud must pervert the
definition of clamping.

Either that surge is clamped to earth where it enters the building
OR it is clamped to earth, 8000 volts destructively, via the adjacent
TV. Bud's own citation Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates it.

Obviously a protector cannot be clamped to nothing. And yet
nothing is what Bud calls protection. No earth ground means no
effective protection. Even the NIST says a protector must ground
surges - from Bud's other citation page 6 (Adobe page 8):
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Divert it to ground which is also called clamping, shunting, or
bonding to earth. Destructive surges obtain earth ground safely via
an earthed 'whole house' protector or destructively via household
appliances. Which item do you want clamping that surge to earth?
Page 42 Figure 8 shows a TV clamping destructively because of a plug-
in protector.

Ben Franklin demonstrated other surge conductors - ie wood church
steeples. To protect church steeples, Franklin clamped lightning to
earth ground using Franklin lightning rods. How did Franklin create
church steeple protection? He shunted, diverted, conducted, clamped,
bonded lightning to earth ground. Now lightning did not be conducted
destructivley by wood in a steeple.

Bud assumes tables, linoleum, wall paint, concrete floors, etc are
not conductive. That 'TV destructive current' can be incoming from a
plug-in protector and 8000 volts destructively to earth even via the
tabletop and linoleum tile. Just another reason why effective
clamping is to earth beneath a building. Just another reason why Page
42 Figure 8 shows a plug-in protector clamping (shunting) a surge 8000
volts destructively through the TV.

No earth ground means no effective protection; as demonstrated by a
plug-in protector clamping a surge destructively thru that TV.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:14:47 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

On Apr 12, 1:09 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
Clamping to what?

Clamping to earth ground. Destructive surges seek earth ground.
Surges enter on any wire to find earth ground, destructively, via
electronic appliances. Or surges are shunted (clamped, bonded,
diverted, connected, equalized) to earth ground without damage.

(yawn)

Bud is promoting for plug-in protector manufacturers. Since those
protectors have no earthing connection

They do in the UK.

(boring stuff snipped)

Yawn.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:14:47 UTC, "w_tom" wrote:

On Apr 12, 1:09 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
Clamping to what?

Clamping to earth ground. Destructive surges seek earth ground.
Surges enter on any wire to find earth ground, destructively, via
electronic appliances. Or surges are shunted (clamped, bonded,
diverted, connected, equalized) to earth ground without damage.

(yawn)

Bud is promoting for plug-in protector manufacturers. Since those
protectors have no earthing connection

They do in the UK.

And all dependant on the earth they are in turn connected to!..

(boring stuff snipped)

Perhaps you don't understand ?. We see this on the telecoms sites and
transmitter sites we look after and he's correct on the principles
involved....

Yawn.

--
Tony Sayer