Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't
tripped and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?

Also, it started/ran with clouds of smoke so I guess it's possible that
the rings were rusted and broke when it started. The engine is marked
Honda GX160 5.5HP. Where's a good place for Honda spares?

Hugh

"NoSpam" wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting in
the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and has
had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't tripped
and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It doesn't
seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?

Also, it started/ran with clouds of smoke so I guess it's possible that
the rings were rusted and broke when it started. The engine is marked
Honda GX160 5.5HP. Where's a good place for Honda spares?

Hugh

You can get Honda spares easily enough on ebay, or I have a good GX160
sitting here if you're interested, located in Luton, Beds. Make me an offer!

As for no output, if it was working OK last time there is not much that is
likely to have failed in the alternator. Maybe corroded contacts in the
switch(s)?

I have several generators and try and make sure they all get run every few
months between "work". I suggest you do the same once yours is in better
health.

Alan.

On 25 Jan, 21:14, NoSpam wrote:

Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output.
it was perfect when last used.
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?

get yourself a multimeter and do some fault finding. Theres no way we
can know which part of the electrical circuit is at fault.


NT

NoSpam wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used.

What could have happened are the connections between the exciter wiring and
the main field coils have corroded so its not self-energising,
they are not usually the most user friendly things to dismantle though. ;(



-

Alan wrote:
"NoSpam" wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting in
the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and has
had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't tripped
and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It doesn't
seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?

Also, it started/ran with clouds of smoke so I guess it's possible that
the rings were rusted and broke when it started. The engine is marked
Honda GX160 5.5HP. Where's a good place for Honda spares?

Hugh

You can get Honda spares easily enough on ebay, or I have a good GX160
sitting here if you're interested, located in Luton, Beds. Make me an offer!

As for no output, if it was working OK last time there is not much that is
likely to have failed in the alternator. Maybe corroded contacts in the
switch(s)?

I have several generators and try and make sure they all get run every few
months between "work". I suggest you do the same once yours is in better
health.

Alan.



The wonderful eBay, I ought to have guessed. Thanks. (Luton is a bit too
far and doing the rings should be easy enough - assuming the bore isn't
damaged)
H

Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used.

What could have happened are the connections between the exciter wiring and
the main field coils have corroded so its not self-energising,
they are not usually the most user friendly things to dismantle though. ;(


Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get
started(?). If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

H

"NoSpam" wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used.

What could have happened are the connections between the exciter wiring
and
the main field coils have corroded so its not self-energising,
they are not usually the most user friendly things to dismantle though.
;(


Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get started(?).
No it's a bit more complicated then that,

Do a search on Google or Wikipedia for Brushless Alternators to get a better
description of how they work.

If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

Without the wiring diagram fault finding can be very difficult unless you
fully understand how they work.




-

Mark wrote:
"NoSpam" wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used.
What could have happened are the connections between the exciter wiring
and
the main field coils have corroded so its not self-energising,
they are not usually the most user friendly things to dismantle though.
;(

Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get started(?).
No it's a bit more complicated then that,

Do a search on Google or Wikipedia for Brushless Alternators to get a better
description of how they work.

If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

Without the wiring diagram fault finding can be very difficult unless you
fully understand how they work.




Aha, that's cunning. So a small integral alternator uses residual
magnetism to "start-up" and then generate a current that's rectified and
fed to the main alternator armature. Load current is taken from the
stator and regulation is achieved by varying the current in the stator
of the small alternator. I wish I'd thought of that, it's very elegant.
I wonder why car alternators don;t work like this.

How does the regulation work, is it just that a proportion of the output
voltage is applied across the stator of the small alternator?

With this injection of knowledge it looks like it'll be a connector
problem. There's continuity from L-N at the output so presumably the
problem is in the control mechanism.

Hugh

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:47:44 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get
started(?). If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

Some generators may fail with a "no residual magnetism left" mode -- mine has
something like that in the manual. The curse, ISTR, is to attach a 12 volt DC
source to the output and then start up the generator again.

I've googled a bit and found this:

http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/...d_flashing.htm

(wot basically says "read the applicable manual...)

and this bit of magic:

http://www.perr.com/tip16.html

Thomas Prufer

Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:47:44 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get
started(?). If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

Some generators may fail with a "no residual magnetism left" mode -- mine has
something like that in the manual. The curse, ISTR, is to attach a 12 volt DC
source to the output and then start up the generator again.

I've googled a bit and found this:

http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/...d_flashing.htm

(wot basically says "read the applicable manual...)

and this bit of magic:

http://www.perr.com/tip16.html

Thomas Prufer


Fantastic! I'll give it a go over the weekend. The thing is producing so
much smoke at the moment that I can't run it in the garage.

Hugh

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:14:25 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Where's a good place for Honda spares?

Honda have a very good spares/dealer network in the UK wander off the the
Honda website http://www.honda.co.uk/energy/ and click the "dealer
search". The one I called, in Dumfries IIRC, about parts for an ancient
(and I mean 20+ years old) Honda engine was very helpful and
knowledgeable.

What colour is the smoke? Have turned off the choke? These small engines
only need choke for about 30s and then only from stone cold.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:14:25 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Where's a good place for Honda spares?

Honda have a very good spares/dealer network in the UK wander off the the
Honda website http://www.honda.co.uk/energy/ and click the "dealer
search". The one I called, in Dumfries IIRC, about parts for an ancient
(and I mean 20+ years old) Honda engine was very helpful and
knowledgeable.

What colour is the smoke? Have turned off the choke? These small engines
only need choke for about 30s and then only from stone cold.


Thanks Dave (and everyone else). It turned-out that the sump was
absolutely full (and I mean FULL) of very dilute oil; presumably the
fuel tap was left switched on and fuel had found its way into the sump.

Once the sump was drained and refilled it ran sweetly again with no
smoke and the speed correctly regulated - BUT there's still no output.

Hugh

Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:47:44 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get
started(?). If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.

Some generators may fail with a "no residual magnetism left" mode -- mine has
something like that in the manual. The curse, ISTR, is to attach a 12 volt DC
source to the output and then start up the generator again.

I've googled a bit and found this:

http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/...d_flashing.htm

(wot basically says "read the applicable manual...)

and this bit of magic:

http://www.perr.com/tip16.html

Thomas Prufer

Fixed the smoke problem and just tried the drill idea, I was right to be
sceptical :-(
Also tried flashing with a 30V/2A power supply but it didn't do any good
- probably not enough current. In the old days of car dynamos I remember
having to flash them to get the correct polarity - ISTR that all we did
was briefly connect the car battery directly across the field windings.

Please could you summarise what your manual says?

Hugh

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:46:45 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Please could you summarise what your manual says?

I can't get to it now, and it isn't online... I'll watch the thread, and post if
it isn't sorted by the time I can get to the manual again.

ISTR just this -- "connect a 12 V DC battery across the output". It's a
cheap-and-cheerful asynchronous generator, briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine,
rated at 2000 W (by optimists!).




Thomas Prufer

NoSpam wrote in message
...

Fixed the smoke problem and just tried the drill idea, I was right to be
sceptical :-(
Also tried flashing with a 30V/2A power supply but it didn't do any good
- probably not enough current.

Whoops !
Flashing is normally only necessary on brush type alternators and even then
only a 9v-pp3 battery is enough on small domestic types.
Self energising brushless alternators have varied methods of energising the
exciter field windings, a supply is sometimes taken from the driving motors
flywheel gen, or a capacitor is used with a separate pickup coil.
As I said fault-finding without the wiring diagram or understanding how that
particular generator works is not easy.
Of all the DOA small generators I have bought with Zero output, the problem
has been corroded connections causing high resistance in the exciter
circuit.



-

Jim Michaels wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:34:42 +0100, Thomas Prufer
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:47:44 +0000, NoSpam wrote:

Thanks. Presumably it just relies on residual magnetism to get
started(?). If there aren't any "well known" failure modes I just need
to work through methodically.
Some generators may fail with a "no residual magnetism left" mode -- mine has
something like that in the manual. The curse, ISTR, is to attach a 12 volt DC
source to the output and then start up the generator again.

I've googled a bit and found this:

http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/...d_flashing.htm

(wot basically says "read the applicable manual...)

and this bit of magic:

http://www.perr.com/tip16.html

This method seems to have some flaws.

It certainly will not work with a variable speed drill

It appears to state that drills have permanent magnets (Ac powered
drills don't)


Correct.

It assumes that a drill will generate some power when spun by hand,
this would be a very small amount of power.


That is also correct. Most motors with field coils will ultimately spin
up and start to generate due to residual magnetism.

Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Fixed the smoke problem and just tried the drill idea, I was right to be
sceptical :-(
Also tried flashing with a 30V/2A power supply but it didn't do any good
- probably not enough current.

Whoops !
Flashing is normally only necessary on brush type alternators and even then
only a 9v-pp3 battery is enough on small domestic types.
Self energising brushless alternators have varied methods of energising the
exciter field windings, a supply is sometimes taken from the driving motors
flywheel gen, or a capacitor is used with a separate pickup coil.
As I said fault-finding without the wiring diagram or understanding how that
particular generator works is not easy.
Of all the DOA small generators I have bought with Zero output, the problem
has been corroded connections causing high resistance in the exciter
circuit.


Thanks, I'll take the advice and have a more thorough check of the
connections - visually it looks "as new" inside and it's always been
stored in a dry location.

Unfortunately I don't have the manual and the manufacturer (Allam2000)
seem to have gone out of business (Allam marine are a different company
and the Allam2000 phone number has been reassigned to a firm of
accountants).

If the connections all seem OK is there any reason not to start the gen
and connect it via a 60W bulb to the mains? (other than the potential
nastiness of a male-male cable)

Hugh

"Jim Michaels" wrote in message
...

and this bit of magic:

http://www.perr.com/tip16.html

This method seems to have some flaws.

It certainly will not work with a variable speed drill

It appears to state that drills have permanent magnets (Ac powered
drills don't)

It assumes that a drill will generate some power when spun by hand,
this would be a very small amount of power.


Get a large 1000w elec drill plug it in and run it up for a while.

Now Connect a 5v DC meter across the plug L + N, and with it still switched
on spin the chuck quickly by hand.

Result ?

Whether this voltage would be large enough to kick the exciter into action
is another issue,which would also depend on the design of the alternator.







-

"NoSpam" wrote in message
...

If the connections all seem OK is there any reason not to start the gen
and connect it via a 60W bulb to the mains? (other than the potential
nastiness of a male-male cable)

Hugh

You will have to work out how the exciter circuit works, if for instance it
is powered by the motors permanent magnet flywheel gen, you could poke any
voltage you like up the output windings without effect.


well maybe a bad aroma and bang
-

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember NoSpam
saying something like:

Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't
tripped and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?

The most common cause of this on a genset that's been lying unused for
ages is damp in the windings. Take off the end cover and direct a 1kW
fan heater into the end of the alternator for a few hours then try it.

Not too close with the heater, mind.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember NoSpam
saying something like:

Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't
tripped and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?


The most common cause of this on a genset that's been lying unused for
ages is damp in the windings.

How can damp affect _insulated_ windings?

Sylvain.

Take off the end cover and direct a 1kW
fan heater into the end of the alternator for a few hours then try it.

Not too close with the heater, mind.
--

Dave

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:07:42 +0000, Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember NoSpam
saying something like:

Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't
tripped and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?


The most common cause of this on a genset that's been lying unused for
ages is damp in the windings.

How can damp affect _insulated_ windings?

It most certainly can. Presumably the insulation is not very thick and can
contain microscopic fracture which allow the ingress of moisture and/or
dirt so great increasing leakage current and lowering breakdown voltage.

Armature winders would not otherwise go to great lengths to bake winding
dry before and after dipping in the varnish vat.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

NoSpam wrote in message
...

Thanks, I'll take the advice and have a more thorough check of the
connections - visually it looks "as new" inside and it's always been
stored in a dry location.

Unfortunately I don't have the manual and the manufacturer (Allam2000)
seem to have gone out of business (Allam marine are a different company
and the Allam2000 phone number has been reassigned to a firm of
accountants).


I have dug out and scanned a test page from a manufacture, how much this
applies to your generator only you can decide.
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/diy/gen.html
One finial thought, you have checked for voltage on the hot side of the
circuit breaker.



-

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Sylvain VAN DER WALDE"
saying something like:

The most common cause of this on a genset that's been lying unused for
ages is damp in the windings.

How can damp affect _insulated_ windings?

They're only insulated with pixie snot.
--

Dave

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:07:42 +0000, Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember NoSpam
saying something like:

Just started-up a 2.2kW dual-voltage genny after a few years of sitting
in the garage and there's no output. It's marked "Allam Generators" and
has had very little use, it was perfect when last used. The c/b hasn't
tripped and trying the switch in all 3 positions makes no difference. It
doesn't seem to have any electronics in it. Any suggestions?


The most common cause of this on a genset that's been lying unused for
ages is damp in the windings.

How can damp affect _insulated_ windings?

It most certainly can. Presumably the insulation is not very thick and can
contain microscopic fracture which allow the ingress of moisture and/or
dirt so great increasing leakage current and lowering breakdown voltage.

Armature winders would not otherwise go to great lengths to bake winding
dry before and after dipping in the varnish vat.


Thanks for that info.

Sylvain.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Thanks, I'll take the advice and have a more thorough check of the
connections - visually it looks "as new" inside and it's always been
stored in a dry location.

Unfortunately I don't have the manual and the manufacturer (Allam2000)
seem to have gone out of business (Allam marine are a different company
and the Allam2000 phone number has been reassigned to a firm of
accountants).


I have dug out and scanned a test page from a manufacture, how much this
applies to your generator only you can decide.
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/diy/gen.html
One finial thought, you have checked for voltage on the hot side of the
circuit breaker.



-

Thanks Mark. I just did some poking around and it turned out to be a
much simpler beast than I was expecting. 2 output windings (which are
series/parallel switched for 240/110) and an excitation winding with a
capacitor across it. All the windings were OK but the cap was short
circuit - replaced it and all now works.
Thanks for various suggestions and information.

Hugh

NoSpam wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Thanks, I'll take the advice and have a more thorough check of the
connections - visually it looks "as new" inside and it's always been
stored in a dry location.

Unfortunately I don't have the manual and the manufacturer (Allam2000)
seem to have gone out of business (Allam marine are a different company
and the Allam2000 phone number has been reassigned to a firm of
accountants).


I have dug out and scanned a test page from a manufacture, how much this
applies to your generator only you can decide.
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/diy/gen.html
One finial thought, you have checked for voltage on the hot side of the
circuit breaker.



-

Thanks Mark. I just did some poking around and it turned out to be a
much simpler beast than I was expecting. 2 output windings (which are
series/parallel switched for 240/110) and an excitation winding with a
capacitor across it. All the windings were OK but the cap was short
circuit - replaced it and all now works.
Thanks for various suggestions and information.

Hugh

Well done,
This would probably a close match to your wiring schematic then.
http://i15.tinypic.com/4hi6u08.jpg



-

Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:
NoSpam wrote in message
...
Thanks, I'll take the advice and have a more thorough check of the
connections - visually it looks "as new" inside and it's always been
stored in a dry location.

Unfortunately I don't have the manual and the manufacturer (Allam2000)
seem to have gone out of business (Allam marine are a different company
and the Allam2000 phone number has been reassigned to a firm of
accountants).

I have dug out and scanned a test page from a manufacture, how much this
applies to your generator only you can decide.
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/diy/gen.html
One finial thought, you have checked for voltage on the hot side of the
circuit breaker.



-

Thanks Mark. I just did some poking around and it turned out to be a
much simpler beast than I was expecting. 2 output windings (which are
series/parallel switched for 240/110) and an excitation winding with a
capacitor across it. All the windings were OK but the cap was short
circuit - replaced it and all now works.
Thanks for various suggestions and information.

Hugh

Well done,
This would probably a close match to your wiring schematic then.
http://i15.tinypic.com/4hi6u08.jpg


Sort of. There are two 110 windings which are series/parallel switched
and there's no DC output. But the excitation and armature are the same.

Hugh