"David Hansen" wrote in message
...

Nor do we. Except that I use wooden boards which some believe have a
natural
disinfectant. We have different ones for different purposes but the
vegetable one is the meat one on its other side.

I chop vegetables and meat (cooked and uncooked) on the same boards,
with the same knives and am still alive. However, I do wash them
between such uses and wash my hands regularly while cooking.

The thing is that the veg.side always smells of garlic and sometimes I
don't want a particular meat so flavoured!

We use one of several cotton dishcloths, they're thrown out when the holes
outstrip the fabric.

Indeed, though they do get a trip in the washing machine every once
in a while.

When they're grey - they're used for other things too - wiping up spills
mostly.

We have survived, presumably much to the
surprise of the "How clean is your house?" lot.

Don't know what that last bit is about

I am told it is a television programme. If it is I have never been
bored enough to watch it.

Ah, thanks, we don't have a box.

Mary

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:37:01 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Query all you like. However, I wanted to pay them the right amount
rather then a low estimate. If that's what a customer of mine wants
to do then I'm happy to facilitate this.

Curious....

You are curious about the concept of doing what the customer wants?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:20:45 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:


That depends on the particular model of lamp.

But to fit an existing fitting the choice can be very restricted.

Some start very quickly

Yes

and are at full brightness in a second or two.

The devil is in the detail.

That is not my experience with the lamps I have by a very long chalk.

This morning before we switched the lighs on I brought my Luxmeter in
from the car and made some measurements with the lamps starting from
cold (20c).

I checked 3 types of lamp we had installed, all in good condition
about 1 year old except the Genura (But that is supposed to last 18
(?) years !). Starting from cold I made measurements at 5 seconds, 3
minutes, and when fully warmed up 15 minutes later. I expressed the
reults as a percentage of this ultimate maximum reached.

Fixed pitch font

IKEA 11W "Bulb" Feit 13W Spiral GE Genura

5 Sec. 16.6% 47.5% 20.0%

3 Mins. 80.5% 95.8% 80.0%

In general the light output appeared to increase linearly with time
from the 5 second point when all lamps had actually started to the 80%
output point and then approached the maximum asymptotically.

Others take longer to start.

It's not the time to start that concerns me it's the time taken to
reach say 80% of full output. One can surmount this problem to some
extent by oversizing the lamps if they'll go in the fitting, but ISTM
about 50% of max output can still take about a minute to reach.

Modern models for some time have generally started very quickly.

But they take a long time to warm up. The Feit Spiral was better than
the others (But very ugly in an exposed fitting) but would still
involve a tiresome wait to each say 80% output, very noticeable on
returning to a house in darkness and switching on hall, landing,
living room and kitchen lights.

ICBW, but I have a feeling that the amount of mercury in the lamps has
been reduced recently for environmental reasons, full output is not
achieved 'till all the mercury has been vapourised and distributed
around the tube.

Like all green initiatives there are two sides to the coin, viz it can
lead to users fitting bigger higher consumption lamps using more
energy, and disposing of lamps sooner thereby wasting raw materials
(including mercury !) and energy.

Le Chatelier's Principle in action.

I'll make some light output comparisons sometime soon between CF's and
GLS tungsten lamps, and post the results here. Trouble is I'll have to
remember to buy one, we don't have a single GLS tungsten lamp in the
house.

DG

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:20:33 +0000 someone who may be Derek Geldard
wrote this:-

It's not the time to start that concerns me it's the time taken to
reach say 80% of full output.

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there. I use the slower starting bulbs in other
locations, where the slow starting is not a problem.

Like all green initiatives there are two sides to the coin, viz it can
lead to users fitting bigger higher consumption lamps using more
energy,

Though still less energy than the GLS lamp they replace.

and disposing of lamps sooner thereby wasting raw materials
(including mercury !) and energy.

No need to dispose of lamps that are unsuitable for a particular
application, just use them somewhere else.

It is simply a matter of experience. While everyone has experience
of GLS lamps that is not true of energy saving lamps.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2007-01-14 13:18:35 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:37:01 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Query all you like. However, I wanted to pay them the right amount
rather then a low estimate. If that's what a customer of mine wants
to do then I'm happy to facilitate this.

Curious....

You are curious about the concept of doing what the customer wants?

Certainly not - I always do what the customer wants. However,
sometimes it is curious.

It's curious to be offered what amounts to a free loan and to turn it down.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:11:35 -0000, Mary Fisher wrote:

We have survived, presumably much to the surprise of the "How clean
is your house?" lot.

Don't know what that last bit is about

I am told it is a television programme. If it is I have never been
bored enough to watch it.

Ah, thanks, we don't have a box.

You haven't missed much other than perhaps having ones eyes opened as to
the state some people will let their home get into. I don't mean a bit of
dust under side boards, I mean pizza boxes with half a what was a pizza
under the sideboard along with a mugs of now multi shaded mould.

One thing they always do thouigh is take swabs from the washing up
cloth/sponge or the and then go on about how many bacteria (no mention of
which bacteria) are on it.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:51:49 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

It was really the *pay* aspect that I was querying.

Query all you like. However, I wanted to pay them the right amount
rather then a low estimate. If that's what a customer of mine wants
to do then I'm happy to facilitate this.

Well I like to pay what I owe rather than a low estimate but with big
companies I have better things to do with my time than argue. When I
switched to Scottish the DD amount was way low (like 50% low) who am I to
argue? Of course by then end of the year I owed then rather a lot and the
next years DD was *much* higher to pay off their loan to me. It's now
settled down and the amount of credit seems stable, indicating the DD is
the right amount I must remember to ask for that credit to be sent to me.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:10:32 -0000, tim..... wrote:

Standard Equipower is 9.81p/unit here v 7.191p/unit on Scottish.
Scottish standing charge is 12.39p/day.

You seem to have done extraordinarily well.

You've got me worried now. With all the price increases in the last year
my spread sheet might be out of date but I don't think it is. Checks
Scottish bill online and the Southern paper one (for EBICO) and those are
the rates on the most recent bills.

For me EBICO is 9.53p and the best offer from Uswitch is
8.91 plus a standing charge of 15.00 per quater. (so the break
even is 2500 units per quarter, which is rather a lot)

or 26 units/day, which is rather a lot.

Yes, I may be able to find something cheaper. But it's the
finding that's the problem. (It's only after I decided who to
switch to that I discoved that Uswitch doesn't have all
companies in their database)

They have most and the tarrifs. What you can't do with some is the
online transfer, you have to write letters etc... There are other
switching sites but look carefully at the information and the way it is
presented. There are only two possibly three actual databases out there
but many sites offering different front ends to the same data.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:57:04 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

Well I like to pay what I owe rather than a low estimate but with big
companies I have better things to do with my time than argue.

It hasn't taken a great deal of time to argue the point, which is
just part of their incompetence which I'm dealing with.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...

....

When I
switched to Scottish the DD amount was way low (like 50% low) who am I to
argue? Of course by then end of the year I owed then rather a lot and the
next years DD was *much* higher to pay off their loan to me. It's now
settled down and the amount of credit seems stable, indicating the DD is
the right amount I must remember to ask for that credit to be sent to me.

What did you do with all the interest on their loan to you?

Mary

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:11:35 -0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


You haven't missed much other than perhaps having ones eyes opened as to
the state some people will let their home get into. I don't mean a bit of
dust under side boards, I mean pizza boxes with half a what was a pizza
under the sideboard along with a mugs of now multi shaded mould.

One thing they always do thouigh is take swabs from the washing up
cloth/sponge or the and then go on about how many bacteria (no mention of
which bacteria) are on it.

So I really haven't missed anything of value.

Mary

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
... we don't allow any products that have built in bactericides
Nor do we. Except that I use wooden boards which some believe have a
natural disinfectant. We have different ones for different purposes but
the vegetable one is the meat one on its other side.

T' problem with that is when you turn the board over, you contaminate the
worktop underneath, which recontaminates the board's other side when you
turn it over again.

Eh? It isn't used again but the garlic aroma wouldn't be absorbed on the
counter. And anyway, that board is warped so the vegetable side touches the
counter only at two edges. Both sides are hollow because of all the cutting
done on them. I'd like to think that I'll live long enough to wear a hole
right through :-)

For interest (mine) I looked at the number of boards on the shelf, they're
stored vertically by the way. There's the veg/meat preparation one, the
cheese board and bread board, both of which are used at the table so can't
be combined. The roasting/carving board (oak and nicely blackened!), a very
thick one - solid beech - made for me by a cabinet making daughter for
butchery, a very large one for working pastry and bread dough and two others
which aren't dedicated to anything but can be used as spares or to hold very
hot items from the oven when necessary.That's eight, I think. There's a
smaller carving board which is kept somewhere else. Oh, and a round one
which is also used as a pan stand but I can never find it, it can't go on
the shelf or it would roll off.

This could turn into another 'piston score' thread :-)

We wipe the work surfaces down everyday
I do it when it needs it, it could be several times a day if I'm baking.

Baking's very good for cleaning things, dough picks up a lot of muck :-)

It does, and it gets your hands very clean, but I prefer working on wood to
a pretend granite plastic surface.

Washing up is done by hand in hand hot water.
Or even lower.

I'm a firm believer in chucking a kettle of boiling water over anything
dubious-looking.

You mean like Jehova's Witnesses?

Mary

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 10:27:02 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-01-13 10:07:19 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:14:01 GMT someone who may be Helen Deborah
Vecht wrote this:-

Our insulated 3-bedroom semi houses two adults, a gas cooker, no tumble
drier, gas CH, a cold-fill washer used 2-3 times per week and no
dishwasher.

Tumble driers do gobble up energy. If someone feels they have to
have one then they are well advised to get a gas fired one.

.. provided that one can find a well made and reliable one. I have
never identified such a product


My experiences with a modern gas oven were such that I fear of taking
on a hybrid such as gas tumbler dryer.

Following anecdote relates to experiences with a Stoves gas oven with
electronic controls.

High voltage wiring (Apparently about 20 gauge tinned copper wire) to
the ignition electrode unsupported except by the crimp terminal at the
electrode itself. After 3 or so years wire oxidises at that point and
drops off. Falls against oven housing bottom, still generates sparks
but not near pilot light jet, so ignition delayed until oven bottom
filled with explosive gas /air mixture, so takes several minutes to
light. After weeks of behaving like this the loose end of HV wire gets
displaced by the explosions away from earthed oven bottom metalwork.
Still continues to work but delay as described above is now longer.

But increased distance from earthed metalwork means greater voltage
needed to strike spark. Eventually spark generator dies from over
voltage.

Replacement is 50 quid + 2 weeks delay.

Replacement lasts 2 days.

Stoves agree to replace it FOC.

Dealer sceptical, but plays along. Neither admits to seeing such a
problem (due entirely to poor design / build quality) ever before.

Fit replacement spark generator, examine and fettle wire to electrode,
oven works. *Alleluiah*, *Alleluiah*, *Alleluiah*, *A-llay-ee-luiah* .

3 Days later notice that oven ignites OK and heats up but pilot flame
not detected and sparking continues. Check electrode, check wire - all
"satis", continue using oven.

5 days later spark generator dies.

It is December 21st. Christmas is coming and "The Goose" is getting
thinner every day.

Go to local dealer of "B" graded domestic appliances, find an electric
Creda oven available to take away for 250 quid, strange model odd
colour not seen/advertised before in UK, but OK.

*Sorted*.

3 years later get trouble with Creda oven. Haul it out, open it up and
find the wiring and controls have been burnt, browned and crispened to
a hopeless extent by ordinary normal usage, can't do anything with it,
it drops apart, it's crumbly.

Order a replacement from Smeg.

Smeg oven has two replacement oven elements within warranty, but
*THANK GOD* still works.

It's 2,007 now, it is 28 years since Niel Armstrong got out of his
spaceship on the moon.

One would have thought that the technology of the gas oven, and the
electric oven had been mastered by now.

Life is too short to take onboard a gas fired tumbler dryer. It's
short enough, I don't want it shortening any further 8-(

DG

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:51:48 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:11:35 -0000, Mary Fisher wrote:

We have survived, presumably much to the surprise of the "How clean
is your house?" lot.

Don't know what that last bit is about

I am told it is a television programme. If it is I have never been
bored enough to watch it.

Ah, thanks, we don't have a box.

You haven't missed much other than perhaps having ones eyes opened as to
the state some people will let their home get into. I don't mean a bit of
dust under side boards, I mean pizza boxes with half a what was a pizza
under the sideboard along with a mugs of now multi shaded mould.

One thing they always do thouigh is take swabs from the washing up
cloth/sponge or the and then go on about how many bacteria (no mention of
which bacteria) are on it.

If it was the same prog I thought testing a WC for cleanliness by
running a fingertip around the rim of the bowl feeling for crystals of
urea (I think, she called it Pee -Pee) was a bit "Under the arm".

DG

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.

Nor have we. and we're in their 'vulnerable' group :-)

Mary

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:15:38 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.

Earlier in this thread I promised to make some measurements comparing
a 60w GLS filament lamp with a claimed to be 60w equivalent CFL. So I
dutifully bought a 60w pearl GLS lamp from Tesco (16p) and set up an
experiment with a luxmeter (taped so as not to move) on the outside of
the lampshade.

The GLS lamp reached 330 Lux at 5 sec. and maxed out at 350 Lux within
10 seconds.

The (brand new) 13 watt CFL reached 140 lux at 5 sec. and reached 240
Lux at 2 mins more/less maxed out.

A (1 year old) 13 watt CFL reached 80 Lux at 5 sec. and reached 124
Lux at 2 minutes more/less maxed out.

So after 1 year of use my feit electric 13 watt CFL gave out less than
25% of the light of a 60 watt GLS filament lamp within a reasonable
few seconds of waiting, and never got above 35%.

Comparing the brand new and 1 year old CFL's, it appears the light
output is down 48% in 12 months.

Q.E.D.

DG

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:15:38 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.

Earlier in this thread I promised to make some measurements comparing
a 60w GLS filament lamp with a claimed to be 60w equivalent CFL. So I
dutifully bought a 60w pearl GLS lamp from Tesco (16p) and set up an
experiment with a luxmeter (taped so as not to move) on the outside of
the lampshade.

The GLS lamp reached 330 Lux at 5 sec. and maxed out at 350 Lux within
10 seconds.

The (brand new) 13 watt CFL reached 140 lux at 5 sec. and reached 240
Lux at 2 mins more/less maxed out.

A (1 year old) 13 watt CFL reached 80 Lux at 5 sec. and reached 124
Lux at 2 minutes more/less maxed out.

So after 1 year of use my feit electric 13 watt CFL gave out less than
25% of the light of a 60 watt GLS filament lamp within a reasonable
few seconds of waiting, and never got above 35%.

Comparing the brand new and 1 year old CFL's, it appears the light
output is down 48% in 12 months.

Q.E.D.

Not so. The light output from CFLs might not be as high as the GLS (I don't
believe that they are) but they give out enough light to prevent us oldies
stumbling, which is what David was saying.

Mary

DG

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:38:18 UTC, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:15:38 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.

Earlier in this thread I promised to make some measurements comparing
a 60w GLS filament lamp with a claimed to be 60w equivalent CFL. So I
dutifully bought a 60w pearl GLS lamp from Tesco (16p) and set up an
experiment with a luxmeter (taped so as not to move) on the outside of
the lampshade.

The GLS lamp reached 330 Lux at 5 sec. and maxed out at 350 Lux within
10 seconds.

The (brand new) 13 watt CFL reached 140 lux at 5 sec. and reached 240
Lux at 2 mins more/less maxed out.

A (1 year old) 13 watt CFL reached 80 Lux at 5 sec. and reached 124
Lux at 2 minutes more/less maxed out.

So after 1 year of use my feit electric 13 watt CFL gave out less than
25% of the light of a 60 watt GLS filament lamp within a reasonable
few seconds of waiting, and never got above 35%.

Comparing the brand new and 1 year old CFL's, it appears the light
output is down 48% in 12 months.

Q.E.D.

Not so. The light output from CFLs might not be as high as the GLS (I don't
believe that they are) but they give out enough light to prevent us oldies
stumbling, which is what David was saying.

Presumably that's what the manufacturers mean by 'equivalent' then...not
equivelent in light output, just 'bright enough'.

More marketing greenwash.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:38:18 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:15:38 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:52:41 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen
wrote this:-

I have been using such lamps in places like toilets for a decade,
without any problems. I have just decided to use them on the stairs,
as they now start quickly enough and reach enough output quickly
enough to be used there.

99p each from John Lewis for the bulbs I have used on the stairs. I
haven't stumbled in the sort of darkness the anti-CFL lobby claimed
I would experience for five minutes before they put out any useful
light.

Earlier in this thread I promised to make some measurements comparing
a 60w GLS filament lamp with a claimed to be 60w equivalent CFL. So I
dutifully bought a 60w pearl GLS lamp from Tesco (16p) and set up an
experiment with a luxmeter (taped so as not to move) on the outside of
the lampshade.

The GLS lamp reached 330 Lux at 5 sec. and maxed out at 350 Lux within
10 seconds.

The (brand new) 13 watt CFL reached 140 lux at 5 sec. and reached 240
Lux at 2 mins more/less maxed out.

A (1 year old) 13 watt CFL reached 80 Lux at 5 sec. and reached 124
Lux at 2 minutes more/less maxed out.

So after 1 year of use my feit electric 13 watt CFL gave out less than
25% of the light of a 60 watt GLS filament lamp within a reasonable
few seconds of waiting, and never got above 35%.

Comparing the brand new and 1 year old CFL's, it appears the light
output is down 48% in 12 months.

Q.E.D.

Not so. The light output from CFLs might not be as high as the GLS (I don't
believe that they are) but they give out enough light to prevent us oldies
stumbling, which is what David was saying.

Mary

I've tried a GE "Extra Mini" 11W (supposedly ~ 60W GLS) blub here in
the study, and it takes a couple of minutes to get to "full"
brightness. I'm not over-impressed - the light's a sort of slightly
orangey yellow. If it was the only light source in the room I'd ditch
it.

Oddly enough, looking at the box it came in (I got two at the time),
you are told not to use it with a timer - I wonder why.

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine typed

I've tried a GE "Extra Mini" 11W (supposedly ~ 60W GLS) blub here in
the study, and it takes a couple of minutes to get to "full"
brightness. I'm not over-impressed - the light's a sort of slightly
orangey yellow. If it was the only light source in the room I'd ditch
it.

I have one atop my stairs; it's OK for that location, though I find the
delay getting any light from it a little galling.

Oddly enough, looking at the box it came in (I got two at the time),
you are told not to use it with a timer - I wonder why.

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

Mine came from Screwfix (GE 11W Extra Mini). There's an even chance
yours did too ;-)

FWIW I do record blown bulbs...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:50:41 +0000 someone who may be Frank Erskine
wrote this:-

I've tried a GE "Extra Mini" 11W (supposedly ~ 60W GLS) blub here in
the study, and it takes a couple of minutes to get to "full"
brightness. I'm not over-impressed - the light's a sort of slightly
orangey yellow. If it was the only light source in the room I'd ditch
it.

I suspect that for everyone who complains about the colour of a
particular lamp there are 100 people who don't see what the fuss is
about.

Oddly enough, looking at the box it came in (I got two at the time),
you are told not to use it with a timer - I wonder why.

They shouldn't be used with some electronic timers, for reasons
discussed in this group from time to time.

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

The first such bulb I bought is still in my living room, 25 odd
years later. Others, which see more use, fail occasionally but
generally after a decade or so of use.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Comparing the brand new and 1 year old CFL's, it appears the light
output is down 48% in 12 months.

Q.E.D.

Not so. The light output from CFLs might not be as high as the GLS (I
don't believe that they are) but they give out enough light to prevent
us oldies stumbling, which is what David was saying.

They are sold on the basis of increased efficiency. Like dribble and his
boilers it makes no sense to claim false results. They should be compared
to the actual output of a GLS filament type and allowance made for falling
output as they age. After all, you can same energy by simply using a
smaller GLS type than before.

--
*Succeed, in spite of management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I've tried a GE "Extra Mini" 11W (supposedly ~ 60W GLS) blub here in
the study, and it takes a couple of minutes to get to "full"
brightness. I'm not over-impressed - the light's a sort of slightly
orangey yellow. If it was the only light source in the room I'd ditch
it.

Oddly enough, looking at the box it came in (I got two at the time),
you are told not to use it with a timer - I wonder why.

They can be used with a timer provided it has some form of mechanical
switch contacts - purely electronic ones won't work. So since they regard
the average punter as thick they just say it won't work. However, with the
increased popularity of them. I'd say it's up to the timer makers to find
a cure. Battery operation as per some thermostats would do it, if you need
one to replace a simple switch.

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

Another example of poor advertising. Their working life will be in hours
so depends on how much they are used.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Jan 31, 10:54 pm, "Bob Eager" wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:38:18 UTC, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Not so. The light output from CFLs might not be as high as the GLS (I don't
believe that they are) but they give out enough light to prevent us oldies
stumbling, which is what David was saying.

Presumably that's what the manufacturers mean by 'equivalent' then...not
equivelent in light output, just 'bright enough'.

As the discussion is about saving energy, then I see this as broadly
equivalent to turning your heating down, on the basis that 1-2C cooler
is still "warm enough".

It is annoying that the LE bulb manufacturers had to make excessive
claims about equivalence, but then one of the biggest is Philips, who
of course invented "perfect sound, forever" when the first generation
of CD players was launched...

--
"Science asks why. I ask why not."

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...

....

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

Spouse always writes the date and source on the base of the bulb before
using it.

He's twice had them replaced by the supplier when their lifespan was less
than it should have been, there was no argument.

Mary

--
Frank Erskine

"Dave Plowman (News)" typed


In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I've tried a GE "Extra Mini" 11W (supposedly ~ 60W GLS) blub here in
the study, and it takes a couple of minutes to get to "full"
brightness. I'm not over-impressed - the light's a sort of slightly
orangey yellow. If it was the only light source in the room I'd ditch
it.

Oddly enough, looking at the box it came in (I got two at the time),
you are told not to use it with a timer - I wonder why.

They can be used with a timer provided it has some form of mechanical
switch contacts - purely electronic ones won't work. So since they regard
the average punter as thick they just say it won't work. However, with the
increased popularity of them. I'd say it's up to the timer makers to find
a cure. Battery operation as per some thermostats would do it, if you need
one to replace a simple switch.

Its life is quoted as 8 years. I wonder how many people could be
bothered to record its effective life or even remember from where they
bought it...

Another example of poor advertising. Their working life will be in hours
so depends on how much they are used.

Yeah, my GE Extramini 11 watt jobs boast 15 years (if used for 2.7 hours
per day).

What's wrong with stating 15,000 hours?

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:21:01 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Its life is quoted as 8 years.

Another example of poor advertising. Their working life will be in
hours so depends on how much they are used.

Or someone not bothering to find the * that says what useage this "life"
is based upon.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article . com,
John Laird wrote:
It is annoying that the LE bulb manufacturers had to make excessive
claims about equivalence, but then one of the biggest is Philips, who
of course invented "perfect sound, forever" when the first generation
of CD players was launched...

I've got a first generation Philips CD player (top loading) which still
works as does the first CD I ever bought. And the sound from CD is as near
'perfection' as the recording engineers care to make it. Of course these
days loudness rules so any attempt at true high fidelity seems to have
been abandoned.

--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mary Fisher" wrote:

Is that a "real" electric bill or an estimate? Utility companies
routinely overestimate so they can get interest-free loans from their
customers.

But you pay bills in arrears ...

If you pay monthly based on the supplier's supposed estimate of your
annual consumption, the company will overestimate it in order to get
your account to run up a credit balance --- which is effectively an
interest-free loan. This is especially true if you give them a Direct
Debit mandate so they can unilaterally raise the monthly payment:

This has been discussed lots of times, once recently. You have control over
direct debits. There's no need to pay more than you need.

My electricity and gas supplier used to give the same discount for
standing order and direct debit, and I had control over the monthly
payments.

Last summer they discontinued the SO discount. As I expected, they've
taken advantage of the DD mandate to jack up my monthly payments.
Since then I've been arguing with them over the amount and have had to
resort to using the DD guarantee to recall every other one.

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
"Mary Fisher" wrote:

Is that a "real" electric bill or an estimate? Utility companies
routinely overestimate so they can get interest-free loans from their
customers.

But you pay bills in arrears ...

If you pay monthly based on the supplier's supposed estimate of your
annual consumption, the company will overestimate it in order to get
your account to run up a credit balance --- which is effectively an
interest-free loan. This is especially true if you give them a Direct
Debit mandate so they can unilaterally raise the monthly payment:

This has been discussed lots of times, once recently. You have control
over
direct debits. There's no need to pay more than you need.

My electricity and gas supplier used to give the same discount for
standing order and direct debit, and I had control over the monthly
payments.

Last summer they discontinued the SO discount. As I expected, they've
taken advantage of the DD mandate to jack up my monthly payments.
Since then I've been arguing with them over the amount and have had to
resort to using the DD guarantee to recall every other one.

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance so that you
can discuss it with them. Reviews are in April, when if you're in credit by
more than £50 you are refunded the whole amount of the excess. If the credit
is less than £50 you can ask for a refund. You can also negotiate the new DD
payments then - or at any time but they prefer April.

Mary

On 2007-03-17, Mary Fisher wrote:

My electricity and gas supplier used to give the same discount for
standing order and direct debit, and I had control over the monthly
payments.

Last summer they discontinued the SO discount. As I expected, they've
taken advantage of the DD mandate to jack up my monthly payments.
Since then I've been arguing with them over the amount and have had to
resort to using the DD guarantee to recall every other one.

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance

That much is true.

so that you can discuss it with them.

Ha, ha. Npower sent me a letter to say they were increasing my DD to
a ridiculous level. I wrote back that I rejected that request and
demanded a reduction to half that amount until they provided a
detailed calculation. They started charging the high amount anyway,
and have continued to do so despite several further letters clearly
rejecting the increase. They are still charging the high payment and
have not provided a properly detailed calculation yet. So now I have
to recall every other payment. Is this what you mean by discussing
it?


Reviews are in April, when if you're in credit by more than £50 you
are refunded the whole amount of the excess. If the credit is less
than £50 you can ask for a refund. You can also negotiate the new DD
payments then - or at any time but they prefer April.

In my experience, as outlined above, they don't negotiate --- they
unilaterally raise the payment. When I used to pay by standing order,
they negotiated --- and every year they agreed to my calculations,
which were consistently lower than their "estimates" --- because they
were unable to grab all the money they wanted out of my bank account.

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-17, Mary Fisher wrote:

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance

That much is true.

so that you can discuss it with them.

Ha, ha. Npower sent me a letter to say they were increasing my DD to
a ridiculous level.

Yep, Powergen bluntly tell you your payment has been reviewed, along the
lines of a pay review methinks. That said they seem amenable to refunding
any surplus on request (now is a good time) and you can set your own payment
online down to the par figure or stupidly high if you want.

I wrote back that I rejected that request and
demanded a reduction to half that amount until they provided a
detailed calculation. They started charging the high amount anyway,
and have continued to do so despite several further letters clearly
rejecting the increase. They are still charging the high payment and
have not provided a properly detailed calculation yet. So now I have
to recall every other payment.

just interested to know what "excuse" you use to recall a properly notified
amount?

Jim A

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:10:02 GMT, Jim Alexander wrote:

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-17, Mary Fisher wrote:

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance

That much is true.

so that you can discuss it with them.

Ha, ha. Npower sent me a letter to say they were increasing my DD to
a ridiculous level.

Yep, Powergen bluntly tell you your payment has been reviewed, along the
lines of a pay review methinks.

Yes, that's happened to me on a couple of occasions, but I 'phoned them and
told them it was too high and agreed on a mutually acceptable payment, no
problems.

--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-17, Mary Fisher wrote:

My electricity and gas supplier used to give the same discount for
standing order and direct debit, and I had control over the monthly
payments.

Last summer they discontinued the SO discount. As I expected, they've
taken advantage of the DD mandate to jack up my monthly payments.
Since then I've been arguing with them over the amount and have had to
resort to using the DD guarantee to recall every other one.

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance

That much is true.

so that you can discuss it with them.

Ha, ha. Npower sent me a letter to say they were increasing my DD to
a ridiculous level. I wrote back that I rejected that request and
demanded a reduction to half that amount until they provided a
detailed calculation. They started charging the high amount anyway,
and have continued to do so despite several further letters clearly
rejecting the increase. They are still charging the high payment and
have not provided a properly detailed calculation yet. So now I have
to recall every other payment. Is this what you mean by discussing
it?

Sorry, I didn't realise you were with NPower.

Why not change your supplier?

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
"Mary Fisher" wrote:

Is that a "real" electric bill or an estimate? Utility companies
routinely overestimate so they can get interest-free loans from
their
customers.

But you pay bills in arrears ...

If you pay monthly based on the supplier's supposed estimate of your
annual consumption, the company will overestimate it in order to get
your account to run up a credit balance --- which is effectively an
interest-free loan. This is especially true if you give them a Direct
Debit mandate so they can unilaterally raise the monthly payment:

This has been discussed lots of times, once recently. You have control
over
direct debits. There's no need to pay more than you need.

My electricity and gas supplier used to give the same discount for
standing order and direct debit, and I had control over the monthly
payments.

Last summer they discontinued the SO discount. As I expected, they've
taken advantage of the DD mandate to jack up my monthly payments.
Since then I've been arguing with them over the amount and have had to
resort to using the DD guarantee to recall every other one.

They don't increase the payments without telling you in advance so that
you can discuss it with them. Reviews are in April, when if you're in
credit by more than £50 you are refunded the whole amount of the excess.
If the credit is less than £50 you can ask for a refund. You can also
negotiate the new DD payments then - or at any time but they prefer April.


You need a better supplier! I`m with Ebico, and when I contact them to
discuss my payment they ask "How much do you expect to use". I told them
how much we spent last year, and we came up with a figure that seems fairly
accurate. It`s ended up being on the high side because we`ve cut down what
we use, but if we hadn`t it would have been pretty much spot on for the
course of a year. As it is I`d rather build up a bit of a credit balance
now, so if prices go up then it`s a bit of a buffer. if prices go down then
we`ll get a decent lump sum out of them. :-)

--
Items on ebay:
http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZscousesifinQQhtZ-1

On 2007-03-17 17:00:28 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"
said:


You need a better supplier! I`m with Ebico, and when I contact them to
discuss my payment they ask "How much do you expect to use". I told them
how much we spent last year, and we came up with a figure that seems fairly
accurate. It`s ended up being on the high side because we`ve cut down what
we use, but if we hadn`t it would have been pretty much spot on for the
course of a year. As it is I`d rather build up a bit of a credit balance
now, so if prices go up then it`s a bit of a buffer. if prices go down then
we`ll get a decent lump sum out of them. :-)

That's completely illogical.

All you are doing is lending them money at zero interest.

When prices go up, all that will have happened is that
you will have prepaid an amount of money.

This is only interesting if you could buy energy units in advance -
then it might be eventually worthwhile.

How many Lottery tickets do you buy each week?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-17 17:00:28 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"
said:

As it is I`d rather build up a bit of a credit balance
now, so if prices go up then it`s a bit of a buffer. if prices go down
then
we`ll get a decent lump sum out of them. :-)

That's completely illogical.

All you are doing is lending them money at zero interest.

Well maybe, but its his preference and a prudent approach. You could say if
your glass was half full, its saving not lending (at zero interest).

Jim A

On 2007-03-17 17:26:26 +0000, "Jim Alexander" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-03-17 17:00:28 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"
said:

As it is I`d rather build up a bit of a credit balance
now, so if prices go up then it`s a bit of a buffer. if prices go down
then
we`ll get a decent lump sum out of them. :-)

That's completely illogical.

All you are doing is lending them money at zero interest.

Well maybe, but its his preference and a prudent approach. You could say if
your glass was half full, its saving not lending (at zero interest).


It's not prudent at all. It's naive.

One might as well put the money in a box under the bed.

If one wants to put money away to pay the bills, then there are two
obvious things to do.

a) Negotiate a DD payment rate with the energy supplier as far as
possible below the usage rate that they will accept. Push them on this
with the threat of going elsewhere.
The effect of this will be that the shortfall will not be paid to the supplier
until the end of the accounting year, or even better rolled forward to be
spread into the following year.

b) Look for a savings account with appropriate access notification and
maximum interest. Set up a DD into that for a little more than the
difference between the projected cost of energy to be used and the payment
being made. At the end of the accounting year, use the money to pay
the shortfall or go on rolling it up into future years.

Alternatively, I will be very pleased to supply the details of my
Paypal account
to anybody wishing to lend me money at zero interest.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
Well maybe, but its his preference and a prudent approach. You could say
if
your glass was half full, its saving not lending (at zero interest).


It's not prudent at all. It's naive.

One might as well put the money in a box under the bed.

Yebbut it is sod all money. Compared to the cost of time in working out
something more efficient, is it worth it?

clive