"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:01:40 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

In the hospital I was talking about, it's in the inner city. Houses were
demolished to make the car park I used.

The other major hospital in our city is in the city centre, that's even
more
difficult. They built a multi-storey car park for that.

You are lucky. Around here they have been moved to the middle of
nowhere, in order to sell the land and fund the move.

Oh I know how lucky we are. Living close to centres of medical excellence
are the main reason we stay here and not move to the Highlands or some other
lonely northern place. When I had brain surgery (I've heard all the jokes!)
it was in the unit which serves the North of England. some people came from
Northumberland, I was within walking distance.

St James' ('Jimmy's' of tv fame) is the one we've frequented most recently
this year, another huge new building is going up for cancer treatment, that
will serve a large region too. Spouse was cared for at St James' when he had
a heart attack, it was that which made us realise how fortunate we were.
Short distance = speedy treatment, which is essential for some conditions.

St James' and the Leeds General Infirmary (the one in town) and the hospital
at the bottom of our street where I go for breast cancer monitoring and the
other Leeds hospitals are the teaching hospitals for the University of
Leeds. I suspect that might be why they haven't been moved out - apart from
being huge.

Mary



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:07:11 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

What a simple life you have, occupied only by pros and antis.

Excellent, another personal attack.

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

Mary

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:32:33 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

Excellent, another personal attack.

Eh? Attack? It was simply an observation upon your apparent
simplistic division of everything into pro and anti and inability to
alter entrenched opinion in the face of facts. That isn't an attack.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:25:36 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:48:23 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

You really are a dim pillock.

Excellent, a personal attack.

Merely an accurate observation, perhaps. You certainly seem taken in by
all the greenwash, almost to the point of obsession.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 8 Nov 2006 16:08:09 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

You certainly seem taken in by
all the greenwash, almost to the point of obsession.

Excellent, discussing another poster rather then the subject.
Usually the resort of those with no better arguments.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:27:47 +0000 David Hansen wrote :
Depends on the facilities provided by the box that connects it to
the external supply.

My reading of the B&Q leaflet was they didn't feed back, just
reduce your own consumption from the grid.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:25:36 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:48:23 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

You really are a dim pillock.

Excellent, a personal attack.

Merely an accurate observation, perhaps. You certainly seem taken in by
all the greenwash, almost to the point of obsession.

Well, there are very many round here who seem determined to knock everything
David says - with no supporting evidence.

In a way that's fair enough although I do wonder why they do it. Calling
people offensive names does their cause no good at all though. It says more
about them than the subject of their childish name-calling.

By the way, what is accurate about 'dim' and 'pillock' in this context?

Mary

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)

You must live in a big house!

Mary


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Matt wrote:
On 8 Nov 2006 00:55:48 -0800, wrote:


I called the number on the windsave web site, actually the installation
company, who told me that it would not work round here. There's no
point in them selling equipment that won't work.

Sounds like B&Q need to train their people.

and have the RSPCA on their backs? Somehow I think they will prefer
to sell more boxes to the uninformed and make money for their
shareholders.


--

RSPCA? As selling the system involves a site survey to see if the
property is suitable , presumably for both installation and
functioning, then they won't want the cost of doing it if a large
number turn out to be a waste of time.

Installation could be interesting. They put it up and stand there with
the customer saying 'it'll be OK once the wind starts blowing!'

I think everybody here would agree it's a good thing if the investment
is sound, and that's the problem.

On 8 Nov 2006 10:04:48 -0800, wrote:

RSPCA? As selling the system involves a site survey to see if the
property is suitable , presumably for both installation and
functioning, then they won't want the cost of doing it if a large
number turn out to be a waste of time.

The survey covers installation only unless the site is obviously
inadequate (such as surrounded by 100ft Leylandi) and this wasn't
picked up on the initial telephone call. The effectiveness
calculation is based simply upon the DTI calculator.

Installation could be interesting. They put it up and stand there with
the customer saying 'it'll be OK once the wind starts blowing!'

For most people that's exactly what will happen, for months on end.

I think everybody here would agree it's a good thing if the investment
is sound, and that's the problem.

It would be a good thing if they even worked - for most they won't.
What I object to is the dishonest way they are marketed giving the
false impression they will do far more than they ever can.

The sales pitch relies upon the quasi religious "we all have to do
something" even if "something" is useless or more damaging than doing
nothing. Anyone suggesting there should be some evidence they work,
that performance graphs should be published and mentioning that the
emperor has no clothes is derided as an "anti" (the objective
arguments are of course ignored).

80% of the UK population live in cities and towns of over 10,000
people. For almost all these windmills at roof height will never
generate enough electricity to cover their manufacturing energy never
mind be an "investment" because there is insufficient stable wind for
them to work at even minimal levels.

Of the remaining 20% of the population over half live in villages
still with significant surface roughness. That leaves about 10% of
the population who _might_ be able to benefit from a windmill.
However about half of these live in sheltered areas (rural houses
tend to be built where there is shelter and they are out of the wind)
so the realistic market for these things is about 5% of the UK
population. B&W and Windsave are trying to say the things will work
almost anywhere, are quoting a completely irrelevant "average
windspeed for the UK" figure and are using a calculator that is
inadequate for the purpose they are using it for.

For those few that fit it to their house if there is sufficient wind
for it to work they will discover it causes vibration, noise and
damage to the wall. That's why all the authorities on the subject,
throughout the world, say they need to go on masts and be some way
from the property.

Only greenwashers have the brass neck and inherent dishonesty to try
to get away with deception on this scale.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:55:01 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

The people who should be blamed for this sort of thing are whatever
the NHS is called this week. They are the ones who have decided to
build most new hospitals in the middle of nowhere, usually partly at
the behest of some senior quack who wants somewhere to park his car.

You really are a dim pillock. Here nulabor have decided to put all
regional A&E at Watford, closing other (easily accessible) units
around the area to pay for it. There is of course a minor problem
with this well thought out strategy. Watford General Hospital is in
the middle of somewhere, specifically it on a narrow road next door
to Watford Football Club and easily accessible from the town centre
(where no one lives)

Err ... excuse me

and local to several schools. This means that
it is impossible to reach (blue light and sirens included) between
07:00 and 10:00 and 15:00 and 19:00 weekdays and more or less all day
Saturday when the footy supporters both fill the few hospital car
parks and abandon coaches across the (one) hospital entrance. You
can however get a local bus at 1 hour intervals although the 10:00
bus you catch is really the 07:00 running a bit late.

The local ambulance service tried a number of test runs which came
back as "incomplete" because the shift change occurred before the
crew who had set out from 4 miles away and two hours previously with
lights and sirens going got to the hospital.

Yup - don't even think about getting injured in the late afternoon - all
the roads are clogged up


This is good?

--
geoff

On 8 Nov 2006 10:04:48 -0800, wrote:


Matt wrote:
On 8 Nov 2006 00:55:48 -0800, wrote:


I called the number on the windsave web site, actually the installation
company, who told me that it would not work round here. There's no
point in them selling equipment that won't work.

Sounds like B&Q need to train their people.

and have the RSPCA on their backs? Somehow I think they will prefer
to sell more boxes to the uninformed and make money for their
shareholders.


RSPCA?

On the odd few occasions I've wandered into their dimly lit premises I
have always left with the impression that B&Q are staffed by monkeys -
untrained ones at that.


--

"Matt" wrote in message
...
On 8 Nov 2006 10:04:48 -0800, wrote:


Matt wrote:
On 8 Nov 2006 00:55:48 -0800, wrote:


I called the number on the windsave web site, actually the installation
company, who told me that it would not work round here. There's no
point in them selling equipment that won't work.

Sounds like B&Q need to train their people.

and have the RSPCA on their backs? Somehow I think they will prefer
to sell more boxes to the uninformed and make money for their
shareholders.


RSPCA?

On the odd few occasions I've wandered into their dimly lit premises I
have always left with the impression that B&Q are staffed by monkeys -
untrained ones at that.

They don't move fast enough for monkeys.


--

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:32:06 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

Depends on the facilities provided by the box that connects it to
the external supply.

My reading of the B&Q leaflet was they didn't feed back, just
reduce your own consumption from the grid.

There is some more information on the Windsave web site, should you
wish to peruse it, including this, "The Windsave small wind turbine
generating system (SWTGS) is an environmentally friendly 'renewable
energy' device that is 'wind powered' and generates electricity
synchronous with mains supply. The generated electricity is fed into
the building's ring main supply at 230 VoltAC, 50Hertz."


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:12:32 +0000 David Hansen wrote :
There is some more information on the Windsave web site, should you
wish to peruse it, including this, "The Windsave small wind turbine
generating system (SWTGS) is an environmentally friendly 'renewable
energy' device that is 'wind powered' and generates electricity
synchronous with mains supply. The generated electricity is fed into
the building's ring main supply at 230 VoltAC, 50Hertz."

But no further AIUI? Which means that on a windy night with nothing is
using electricity except a TV on standby, CH programmer and clock
radio, virtually all the electricity generated is wasted?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:12:32 +0000 David Hansen wrote :
There is some more information on the Windsave web site, should you
wish to peruse it, including this, "The Windsave small wind turbine
generating system (SWTGS) is an environmentally friendly 'renewable
energy' device that is 'wind powered' and generates electricity
synchronous with mains supply. The generated electricity is fed into
the building's ring main supply at 230 VoltAC, 50Hertz."

But no further AIUI? Which means that on a windy night with nothing is
using electricity except a TV on standby, CH programmer and clock
radio, virtually all the electricity generated is wasted?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

I suppose the logical thing to do would be to use the electricity in that
case to do something useful - heat water or heat a storage heater, ir charge
your electic car!

Andy

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:08:23 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

But no further AIUI? Which means that on a windy night with nothing is
using electricity except a TV on standby, CH programmer and clock
radio, virtually all the electricity generated is wasted?

No, the electricity is fed into the external system where it powers
other things.

Depending on who the turbine owner is dealing with they will get
paid for the electricity they generate and they may also aggregate
things like ROCs.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:41:04 +0000 David Hansen wrote :
No, the electricity is fed into the external system where it powers
other things.

Depending on who the turbine owner is dealing with they will get
paid for the electricity they generate and they may also aggregate
things like ROCs.

The web site says

"The Windsave System will provide savings when the wind is strong
enough to 'generate' and so long as there is a reasonable demand
[base-load] from the ring main."

which implies otherwise

and from the FAQ

"As a micro wind turbine, the chances of our system exporting to the
'Grid' are minimal.

Properties typically have a base-load that is an ongoing consumption
of electricity. Quite often this will use anything that you are
generating from your own system.

At 12m/s (27mph) our system will run towards a 1kW output. The wind
would have to blow a full hour to give 1kWh output. This is equal to
a 'unit' of electricity ( You may pay as much as 12p but typical
figures for your supplier buying back KWh are 2.5p and buyback
tariffs cost as much as £150 to setup). There are very few places in
the UK that would ever viably export to the grid from just one micro
turbine. On this basis we believe the opportunities from exported
electricity from the premises are minimal"

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:28:30 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

"The Windsave System will provide savings when the wind is strong
enough to 'generate' and so long as there is a reasonable demand
[base-load] from the ring main."

which implies otherwise

I have no doubt they say that so they do not get involved in
explaining the complications of getting paid properly for the
electricity exported. These complications are being eased, but there
is a little way to go.

However, the electricity is put into the house wiring and thus it is
put into the electricity system. It cannot be restricted to only
being used in the house the turbine is attached to. It would be
different if the turbine was connected to a separate wiring system.

What then happens is that if the house load is more than the turbine
is supplying electricity will flow into the house, if the house load
is less than the turbine is supplying then electricity will flow out
of the house. Getting paid for the latter is the complicated bit,
the engineering is relatively easy.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

There is some more information on the Windsave web site, should you
wish to peruse it, including this, "The Windsave small wind turbine
generating system (SWTGS) is an environmentally friendly 'renewable
energy' device that is 'wind powered' and generates electricity
synchronous with mains supply. The generated electricity is fed into
the building's ring main supply at 230 VoltAC, 50Hertz."

All of which suggests that it *does not* feed back into the grid. (i.e.
it just feeds the ring circuit in the house). The only need for external
power[1] would seem to be to achieve synchronisation of the generated
waveform with it.

In fact as they say in their own FAQ:

"What about exporting to the Grid?

As a micro wind turbine, the chances of our system exporting to the
'Grid' are minimal."


[1] The thing comsumes 6W - that is more than the TV in "standby" they
keep telling us to turn off!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:10:06 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

All of which suggests that it *does not* feed back into the grid. (i.e.
it just feeds the ring circuit in the house).

Please explain how electromagnetic waves (or electrons if one
prefers the water analogy) can be restricted so that they only move
around the house wiring.

[1] The thing comsumes 6W - that is more than the TV in "standby" they
keep telling us to turn off!

That 6W is certainly something to bear in mind when considering
whether it is worthwhile. Note that this figure is clearly stated.
If one was to believe the antis then this is something that the
manufacturers would not state anywhere.

Whether a television set only draws 6W in "standby" depends on the
design. If it has a CRT then it is likely to draw rather more than
this.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:10:06 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-


All of which suggests that it *does not* feed back into the grid. (i.e.
it just feeds the ring circuit in the house).


Please explain how electromagnetic waves (or electrons if one
prefers the water analogy) can be restricted so that they only move
around the house wiring.

You may get "spillage" as they call it, but there is no mechanism to
account for or meter it. So you are not going to recoup any money from
the suppliers.

[1] The thing comsumes 6W - that is more than the TV in "standby" they
keep telling us to turn off!


That 6W is certainly something to bear in mind when considering
whether it is worthwhile. Note that this figure is clearly stated.

I got it from their web site, so it is there for all to read.

If one was to believe the antis then this is something that the
manufacturers would not state anywhere.

Is your ability to present a balanced argument entirely dependant on
having a chip on *both* shoulders? Sorry to have to alter your world
view, but you can't divide most people into being either "pro" or
"anti". Many of us will make decisions about these things on a case by
case basis.

Personally I have no objection to renewable generation when it makes
commercial and ecological sense. However I have a low tolerance for
snake oil. I am sure if you took a cross selection of people with no
specialist background knowledge on the subject, and had them read the
Windsave information displayed in B&Q or on their web site, they would
come away with a more positive anticipation of the products abilities,
than would actually be warranted for the majority of potential
purchasers. They would also acquire a fair amount of "information" about
the availability of wind power in the UK that omits a number of
significant details. This is called marketing, which as we all well know
has to walk a delicate line between representing the most attractive
reasons for owning a product, and telling outright porkers!

Whether a television set only draws 6W in "standby" depends on the
design.

No **** Sherlock.

If it has a CRT then it is likely to draw rather more than
this.

My thirteen year old 29" CRT set draws under 2W on standby. You can't
make blanket assumptions. New sets will typically draw less than 1W.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
David Hansen wrote:

....

Is your ability to present a balanced argument entirely dependant on
having a chip on *both* shoulders?

It seems to me that the chips are on the antis' shoulders :-)

Sorry to have to alter your world view,

I doubt that you'll do that.

but you can't divide most people into being either "pro" or "anti". Many
of us will make decisions about these things on a case by case basis.

That's not how it comes across.

Mary

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:46:03 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

All of which suggests that it *does not* feed back into the grid. (i.e.
it just feeds the ring circuit in the house).

Please explain how electromagnetic waves (or electrons if one
prefers the water analogy) can be restricted so that they only move
around the house wiring.

You may get "spillage" as they call it, but there is no mechanism to
account for or meter it. So you are not going to recoup any money from
the suppliers.

That is a different discussion altogether.

If we are now discussing payments for electricity fed into the
external electricity system then I refer readers to my earlier
postings.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Mary Fisher wrote:

Is your ability to present a balanced argument entirely dependant on
having a chip on *both* shoulders?


It seems to me that the chips are on the antis' shoulders :-)

So who are they then?

Sorry to have to alter your world view,


I doubt that you'll do that.

No me either. Black and white is so much simpler!

but you can't divide most people into being either "pro" or "anti". Many
of us will make decisions about these things on a case by case basis.


That's not how it comes across.

Perhaps you read scepticism as "anti".



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

So...

Are these things worth buying?

Will they last 10 years?

Will they produce a significant amount of electricity?

The Reading turbine is 65m high, has 2MW capacity and generates 3.5
million units per year. Pro rata for the 1kW B&Q system would be 1750
units, but probably nowhere as efficient.

On 2006-11-10 21:25:01 +0000, said:

So...

Are these things worth buying?

Will they last 10 years?

Will they produce a significant amount of electricity?

The Reading turbine is 65m high, has 2MW capacity and generates 3.5
million units per year. Pro rata for the 1kW B&Q system would be 1750
units, but probably nowhere as efficient.

You could buy the Reading one and put it in your garden. Please.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)

You must live in a big house!

Mary


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

There is one of these devices on the roof of the offices of North
Somerset Council in Weston-super-Mare. Earlier today it was going at
full speed as it's very windy. It's shown on the Windsave web site.

It makes a lot of noise! Particularly as it swings round a lot. Might
annoy the neighbours.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)

You must live in a big house!

Mary


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

There is one of these devices on the roof of the offices of North
Somerset Council in Weston-super-Mare. Earlier today it was going at
full speed as it's very windy. It's shown on the Windsave web site.

It makes a lot of noise! Particularly as it swings round a lot. Might
annoy the neighbours.

DJT wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 14:21:22 +0000, Zoinks
wrote:


All,
Wandering around the local shed today I notice that they have started
doing wind turbines for £1500 inc. installation and VAT.

The bumf says the following:

1) The turbine generates (up to) 1kW
2) It will save me (up to) 30% of my electricity bill
3) Planning permission is (probably) not needed - it equates it with a
satellite dish.
4) The UK Government will (probably) stump up 30% of the cost.
5) It will pay for itself in (around) 7-12 years.

Any thoughts?

Z.


This has been covered extensively before with some useful facts and
figers see
http://tinyurl.com/y9locd
best to start from about post 60
but to sum up
the advertising blurb from Windsave is wildly optimistic and possibly
even deceitful.
you would need to average over 6ms windspeed for most of the year for
this to be even remotely financially worthwhile.

Only extremely exposed coastal or hill top sites would be able to
achieve this, fine if like me you live in a ex lighthouse-radar
station overlooking the north sea

, but on the side of a urban house below ridge height as in the
Windsave picture it would never even repay its purchase price over 12
years.

Everything has been covered extensively on this newsgroup (c: Not always
easy to find it though, even with google.

I don't understand the stuff in this thread about pro- and anti- so I'll
skip that...

The thing I was trying to draw attention to was the fact that B&Q were
even stocking these things. I wouldn't buy one simply because if the
claims made were true I could simply build one myself for near-enough
free (as reported on the lili website: http://www.lowimpact.org/)
instead of for £1.5k!
Furthermore, I can see that electricity generating co-ops would probably
be the way to go about this - say 10-12 people building/buying a turbine
large enough to be cost-effective and placed well out of the way of nimbys.

Z.

Zoinks wrote:


The thing I was trying to draw attention to was the fact that B&Q were
even stocking these things. I wouldn't buy one simply because if the
claims made were true I could simply build one myself for near-enough
free (as reported on the lili website: http://www.lowimpact.org/)
instead of for £1.5k!
Furthermore, I can see that electricity generating co-ops would probably
be the way to go about this - say 10-12 people building/buying a turbine
large enough to be cost-effective and placed well out of the way of nimbys.

Friends of the Earth have come down pretty comprehensively as 'antis':

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...945887,00.html

"If you're planning to make the ultimate green fashion statement by
putting a wind turbine on top of your house, think again.

Green campaigners warn that rooftop windmills do little to cut
greenhouse gases, may annoy your neighbours, cause vibrations that
could damage your home and produce only enough electricity to power a
hairdryer.

Friends of the Earth said homeowners would only save tiny amounts of
electricity by investing in turbines. 'For householders the idea of a
turbine is very sexy because it's an exciting piece of kit. It's making
a very visible statement to the effect that, "I'm doing my bit",' said
Nick Rau, a campaigner at the group. 'It's glamorous to put something
on your roof. But if energy efficiency is the top priority, there are
many other, much more straightforward things you could do that are much
more cost effective, and more beneficial for the environment, like
insulating your loft thoroughly.'"

On 10 Nov 2006 13:25:01 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

The Reading turbine is 65m high, has 2MW capacity and generates 3.5
million units per year. Pro rata for the 1kW B&Q system would be 1750
units, but probably nowhere as efficient.

That would largely depend on where the "B&Q" turbine is placed.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:16:04 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On 8 Nov 2006 16:08:09 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager"
wrote this:-

You certainly seem taken in by
all the greenwash, almost to the point of obsession.

Excellent, discussing another poster rather then the subject.
Usually the resort of those with no better arguments.

And who d'ya suppose chose to ignore the following :

"The local ambulance service tried a number of test runs which came
back as "incomplete" because the shift change occurred before the
crew who had set out from 4 miles away and two hours previously with
lights and sirens going got to the hospital."

By replying thusly : Up yer pipe Mary

"Excellent, a personal attack."

DG

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"David Hansen" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:07:11 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

What a simple life you have, occupied only by pros and antis.

Excellent, another personal attack.

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)


David is not yet "Floating Point". That integer is out of range.

DG

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 16:17:09 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)

And paint them out as you get shot down ?

DG

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:50:22 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"David Hansen" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:45:01 -0000 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:-

I hope you're keeping a tally, David :-)

I paint a badge on the wall as I defeat each attack:-)

You must live in a big house!


Erm, no.

See my other post.

DG

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 17:49:17 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


By the way, what is accurate about 'dim' and 'pillock' in this context?


I don't know that there are any European Harmonised Standards for
Dimnitude and Pillockitude, you can't buy a meter calibrated to
against a standard traceable to a national standard that measures it.

In respect of Hansen I have satisfied myself that I have no reason to
question the accuracy of that description.

DG

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:44:05 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


The other major hospital in our city is in the city centre, that's even
more
difficult. They built a multi-storey car park for that.

It's £12.00 per day BTW. And nurses coming off shift get fined 1 days
pay if they don't move their vehicles quickly enough (say 'cos they
went to the post office) .


You are lucky. Around here they have been moved to the middle of
nowhere, in order to sell the land and fund the move.


If you refer to the old Edinborough R.I. I can assure you the premises
(though quaint in an auld "Wee Scottty" sort of way) were totally
unsuitable for a hospital in 2,006.

I liked the building BTW. Until I had to dismantle an instrument
weighing 1,200 LBs at the top of one of the towers and take it down
to the basement and re-install it into one of the labs.

The Lab boss said "We're no too sure aboot the floor, can you
dismantle it piece by piece staying close to the wall (don't move it
away from the wall in one piece) and take it down the steps".

Sure I can, just call me Indiana Jones.

Of course I jest, such is fairly normal for the NHS.

Oh I know how lucky we are. Living close to centres of medical excellence

Who created that title ? Do I need to say more ?

Would you believe it if Arriva said Leeds was a centre of transport
excellence ?

are the main reason we stay here and not move to the Highlands or some other
lonely northern place.

I think you will find (Should you chose to look) that significantly
better medical services are available in the Scottish Highlands. They
get more funding per patient (25% IIAC) and will pay airfares for
patients to get to outpatients appointments. Better than crawling down
Chapeltown Road. I think you know what I mean. :-(

BTW I was in Aberdeen R.I. on Wednesday and Dundee R.I. yesterday.

When I had brain surgery (I've heard all the jokes!)

You have proof of that ?

it was in the unit which serves the North of England.

Give over, it would have been the local, Regional Neurology Unit.

As regard Yorkshire, there is an excellent one in Sheffield.

some people came from Northumberland,

One wonders why, (there might have been a good reason), since there is
a perfectly adequate University, Medical school, and Neurology
Department in Newcastle. IE.

************************************************** *******************

Welcome to the Neurosciences Directorate of the Newcastle Upon Tyne
Hospitals NHS Trust.

The Directorate is made up of the Departments of Neurology,
Neurophysiology, Neuroradiology and Neurosurgery. The Directorate
provides services to Northumberland, Tyne & Wear, Durham and North
Cumbria. Some specialised services are provided for patients from all
areas of the UK and abroad.

************************************************** *******************

I was within walking distance.

Significance = 0. Methinks.


St James' ('Jimmy's' of tv fame) is the one we've frequented most recently
this year,

Father in law died there of MRSA infection there in ****ty squalor in
2,000. Deep gouges ran across the walls where beds had been pushed
along. It is not possible to clean/sterilise a plaster surface broken
like that. Disposable urinal bottles chucked out of windows into the
quad, used syringes ditto. The lift was not cleaned in the 6 weeks we
were attending there. Father in law fell out of bed 18 times in just 2
hours one Sunday afternoon because his bed could not be seen from his
nurses workstation, oddly, *none* of the beds could. The wing was only
built in 1972, the year we got married, how could it possibly be
designed like that, there is no concievable excuse.

This is "Nursing" ?

The dirty *******s. !

another huge new building is going up for cancer treatment, that
will serve a large region too. Spouse was cared for at St James' when he had
a heart attack, it was that which made us realise how fortunate we were.
Short distance = speedy treatment, which is essential for some conditions.

And filthy wards catastrophic for others.


St James' and the Leeds General Infirmary (the one in town) and the hospital
at the bottom of our street where I go for breast cancer monitoring

You neglect to mention what happened to the original "Chapel
Alllerton" Hospital. Slight possibilty it was sold off for housing,
what, what?

and the other Leeds hospitals are the teaching hospitals for the University of
Leeds. I suspect that might be why they haven't been moved out - apart from
being huge.

Tosh.

It's *MONEY* that directs it all.

There has been a titanic struggle in recent years between LGI and St
James's to the detriment of patient care.

St James's has won, probably because of the open market value of the
LGI site.

So it's Bye Bye LGI.

Killingbeck is already long gone, a fine hospital sold for housing.

Seacroft will not be long. :-(

DG

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:48:54 +0000 someone who may be Derek ^
wrote this:-

In respect of Hansen I have satisfied myself that I have no reason to
question the accuracy of that description.

Excellent, rudeness as well.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54