Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

EP

wrote in message
ps.com...
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

IIRC water heating can pay for itself. Electricity can't.

On 7 Oct 2006 11:19:22 -0700, wrote:

Has anyone seen this kit?

Yes.

Is it any good?

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

wrote in message
ps.com...
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

That's Usenet!

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

It's not.

....

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

They heat water, when there's no cloud in summer we get a lot of very hot
water, less hot when it's cloudy. In winter we get a lot of usable hot water
(no matter what the air temperature is), less when it's cloudy. Even when
the water isn't a usable temperature it's warmer than the mains so not as
much power is used to heat it to the temperature you like.

Mary

wrote:
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

I have seen these in store and they look OK!

They are made by a company called RMSolar (www.rmsolar.com) and come
with a 20 year warranty. The life expectancy is 35 years. The panels
have full certification to BS/EN12975 parts 1 & 2 and are designed
specifically for the UK climate.

There are three sizes of kit available (1 panel, 2 panel and 3 panel)
depending on your size of property. Each system includeds everything
needed for a working system.

You can either fit it yourself or get their installers to do it. There
are installation diagrams on their website. There's a £40 fee for the
initial survey where they recommend which system you need, positioning
etc. This is refunded when you purchase a system.

The system contains glycol and works down to minus 30 degrees C. They
claim that the system can generate up to 70% of your annual hot water.

Payback is about 6 years..I'm sure that as people start to buy them the
price will fall over subsequent years.

harry

Steve Firth wrote:

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

Show me a comparable system for less money..

Harry.

Mary Fisher wrote:

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

The B&Q kits come with all the controls, pumps etc needed for a working
system. They claim you don't ned to buy anything other than the kit
itself.

harry

"Mr Harry" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mary Fisher wrote:

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

The B&Q kits come with all the controls, pumps etc needed for a working
system. They claim you don't ned to buy anything other than the kit
itself.

We had all that plus instructions plus very good telephone help, a 25 year
guarantee and no survey fee.

Oh, our pump is driven by a pv panel so there's no input from the grid.

We are very happy.

Mary

harry

Mr Harry
Thanks for your response.

How refreshing to see facts rather than rants.

Now I'm keen to have a look at B&Q's deal.
It seems worth a consideration.
I'm keen to incorporate some value panels with a design I've been
planning for some time.

If you boast any skills in DIY/plumbing/electrics/common-sense a good
deal
will be apparent!

EP

wrote:
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

EP

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

On 7 Oct 2006 11:52:09 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

Show me a comparable system for less money..

I can't show you anything that poor. However the system I have installed
cost less than half the price of the B&Q ****e, and it has 2x20 vacuum tube
solar collectors, not some cheapskate flat panel rubbish.

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

I'm sure that as people start to buy them the price will fall over
subsequent years.

So why buy now and pay an inflated price?

In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

.... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it out
!!!

Nick

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 21:29:47 GMT, raden wrote:

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen
as it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

That's an interesting assertion

.... and a total load of ********

Well there is the little matter of 48.32p/litre of duty of road diesel
which isn't on heating oil and VAT is only 5% on domestic heating oil so
it's ******** regarding cost.

Also I'm not sure I'd want to run a modern pressure jet heating boiler on
SVO which is heavier than diesel. Heating oil is lighter than diesel and
burns very cleanly.

However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In message , Nick
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it out
!!!

Wallflower that I am, I have a significant difficulty with biofuels
being carbon neutral

less damaging, maybe (well, almost without doubt) but a carbon footprint
of nothing ? I don't think so

--
geoff

For some realistic pricing from a good company:

http://shop.navitron.org.uk/product....hFor=&PT_ID=60

http://www.navitron.org.uk/

On 7 Oct 2006 12:24:05 -0700, "Staffbull" wrote:

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

Biofuels on a large scale give you the option of either eating food in
the manner to which you have become accustomed ........or going hungry
whilst driving round in an "eco friendly" car.


--

Dave Liquorice wrote:


However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission. New Scientist recently
reported that to meet the EU's aim of 10% of fuels being biofuels would,
using present crops, require 72% of Europe's agricultural land. That is
why the Indonesians are chopping down the rainforest in Borneo so they
can plant yet more oil palms so they can ship the product to the rich
Westerners, using you guesed it, more carbon in the ship.

So rather than planting yet more oilseed rape we need to think laterally
and this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae, the oil is then removed and the waste can be treated
with enzymes and used as feedstock in ethanol production. There are
pilot plants operating in the States.

A New Zealand company has developed a method for extracting oil from
algae grown on sewerage ponds. Yes, **** to fuel. Turning waste into
fuel makes much more sense than using agricultural land, no tractors, no
fertilizer, minimal harvest cost and where the people are, there's ****
so minimal transport costs.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

On 2006-10-08, Peter Ashby wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:


However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

An extensive academic study I saw recently concluded that biodiesel
suitable for cars is not 100% effifient WRT carbon neutrality but
actually 79% efficient.

--
John Phillips

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:58:14 GMT, Peter Ashby wrote:

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest
the crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

I knew someone would mention the machines and process but that *could* be
run on biofuel not dino. B-) Fertilizer as you say further down plenty
of **** about, regularly gets spread on the fields round here.

No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission.

And probably never will be, if your fertilizer comes from cattle they
fart prodigious quantities of methane, another greenhouse gas. B-)

... this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae,

I agree algae or other micro organisms is probably a better method than
waiting for plants to grow, harvest, transport, extract etc.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it
out
!!!

Wallflower that I am, I have a significant difficulty with biofuels being
carbon neutral

less damaging, maybe (well, almost without doubt) but a carbon footprint
of nothing ? I don't think so

If you run your tractors on biofuels as well, then the only CO2 output I can
see is the fuel used to purify / pump water for irrigation and fertilisers.

John Phillips wrote:
On 2006-10-08, Peter Ashby wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.
It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

An extensive academic study I saw recently concluded that biodiesel
suitable for cars is not 100% effifient WRT carbon neutrality but
actually 79% efficient.

Yup. However its a very moveable feast. Some oil company sponsored type
in the USA calculated it was negative efficiency to make alcohol for fuel..

Running tractors off biodiesel seems eminently feasible to me.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

... this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae,

I agree algae or other micro organisms is probably a better method than
waiting for plants to grow, harvest, transport, extract etc.

Not to mention lack of waste products like roots, stems etc full of
cellulose and even lignin (wood). None of any of those in algae so less
waste and more bang for your buck. It's a no brainer really.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:58:14 GMT, Peter Ashby wrote:

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest
the crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

I knew someone would mention the machines and process but that *could* be
run on biofuel not dino. B-) Fertilizer as you say further down plenty
of **** about, regularly gets spread on the fields round here.


Virtually none here. A break crop of field beans seems all that is
needed - or a year of lucrative set-aside.

Insecticides weed killer and fungicides are used though: Its all a
matter of cost benefit analysis. The stubble and other stuff gets
ploughed back in as compost.

Things have changed since the 60's when everything you could do to
increase yield was guaranteed to be paid for at a decent price..


No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission.

And probably never will be, if your fertilizer comes from cattle they
fart prodigious quantities of methane, another greenhouse gas. B-)

... this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae,

I agree algae or other micro organisms is probably a better method than
waiting for plants to grow, harvest, transport, extract etc.


Indeed. Fish can be fed on algae, and either eaten as food, or used to
produce fishmeal.


The point is to use the carbon fixing chains that exist in nature most
reliably.

In deserts sol;at furnaces are really effective.

In cold wet latitudes its better to grow fast growing biomass like
willow or poplar.

In tundra you are stuck with lichens, and reindeer.

But they can pull sleighs through the sky, allegedly ;-)

wrote:
Mr Harry
Thanks for your response.

How refreshing to see facts rather than rants.

Now I'm keen to have a look at B&Q's deal.
It seems worth a consideration.
I'm keen to incorporate some value panels with a design I've been
planning for some time.

If you boast any skills in DIY/plumbing/electrics/common-sense a good
deal
will be apparent!

I'm not sure it's a "good deal" as such.

Yes, I haven't seen anything comparable for cheaper so in that respect
it is a good deal. However, B&Q will (Presumably) sell thousands of
these units meaning they will probably be cheaper in a year of two.

So...is the better deal to buy now and start saving on gas or wait a
couple of years until the system is cheaper but pay higher gas bills in
the meantime?

Similar happened when B&Q started selling fixed air conditioning units.
They were originally on sale for £1200 odd. Now, five or so years
later, they can be had for around £500.

Harry

Steve Firth wrote:

Show me a comparable system for less money..

I can't show you anything that poor. However the system I have installed
cost less than half the price of the B&Q ****e, and it has 2x20 vacuum tube
solar collectors, not some cheapskate flat panel rubbish.

So...where did you buy these cheap vacuum tubes from..? I'd be very,
very interested in seeing a costing for a fully installed system at
less than £800..

Normally a 20 tube panel would cost £750-£1000 upwards alone and you
are looking at £2500 to £3000 for all the parts (Ex installation)

Harry

Mary Fisher wrote:

We had all that plus instructions plus very good telephone help, a 25 year
guarantee and no survey fee.

Oh, our pump is driven by a pv panel so there's no input from the grid.

We are very happy.

I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective but it's certainly a neat solution.

Harry

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John Phillips wrote:
On 2006-10-08, Peter Ashby wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.
It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

An extensive academic study I saw recently concluded that biodiesel
suitable for cars is not 100% effifient WRT carbon neutrality but
actually 79% efficient.

Yup. However its a very moveable feast. Some oil company sponsored type
in the USA calculated it was negative efficiency to make alcohol for fuel..

Running tractors off biodiesel seems eminently feasible to me.


The Diesel engine was designed just for that! Rudolf Diesel invented it
for agricultural use and designed to run on peanut oil to begin with,
Diesel as we know it came along later.

In message , Doki
writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it
out
!!!

Wallflower that I am, I have a significant difficulty with biofuels being
carbon neutral

less damaging, maybe (well, almost without doubt) but a carbon footprint
of nothing ? I don't think so

If you run your tractors on biofuels as well, then the only CO2 output I can
see is the fuel used to purify / pump water for irrigation and fertilisers.

Because you didn't see the energy used in planting, harvesting
processing and distributing the stuff

etc etc ...

Do you think that your household electricity is also carbon neutral ?

--
geoff

"Mr Harry" wrote in message
ups.com...



I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective

Why shouldn't it be?

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:58:14 GMT, Peter Ashby wrote:

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest
the crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

I knew someone would mention the machines and process but that *could* be
run on biofuel not dino.

They still have to be built and maintained

and let's not forget the f'queueing massive acreage if fertile land
required to generate the fuel

B-) Fertilizer as you say further down plenty
of **** about, regularly gets spread on the fields round here.

No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission.

And probably never will be, if your fertilizer comes from cattle they
fart prodigious quantities of methane, another greenhouse gas. B-)

Orders of magnitude worse than CO2 IIRC

On QI ISTR it being pointed out that kangaroos don't fart despite having
a similar diet to cows

Some scientists are trying to find out what bacterium in the kangaroo
gut is responsible for this and to, hopefully, cut down on bovine
gaseous emissions

Of course, you could always collect the methane in balloons attached to
the backs of cows and burn that



... this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae,

I agree algae or other micro organisms is probably a better method than
waiting for plants to grow, harvest, transport, extract etc.


--
geoff

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Mr Harry" wrote in message
ups.com...



I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective

Why shouldn't it be?

Well, if the energy it saves over the lifespan of the panel is less
than the cost to buy it.

On 8 Oct 2006 09:25:44 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

So...where did you buy these cheap vacuum tubes from..?

Solaware, Bristol. They advertise regularly on eBay.

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:34:45 GMT, raden wrote:

Do you think that your household electricity is also carbon neutral ?

What if you buy it from one of the 100% "green" suppliers? If their power
has any dino carbon emmisions can't they be done under the Trade
Descriptions Act?

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Mr Harry" wrote in message
ups.com...

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Mr Harry" wrote in message
ups.com...



I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective

Why shouldn't it be?

Well, if the energy it saves over the lifespan of the panel is less
than the cost to buy it.

In our case it was part of the kit.

It only works when the water is being heated (it's a direct system) so no
power is wasted.

Mary

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:20:39 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:34:45 GMT, raden wrote:

Do you think that your household electricity is also carbon neutral ?

What if you buy it from one of the 100% "green" suppliers? If their power
has any dino carbon emmisions can't they be done under the Trade
Descriptions Act?

Or you can buy a carbon offset for the energy you use. Ebico provide
this facility.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

Owain wrote:
raden wrote:
Of course, you could always collect the methane in balloons attached
to the backs of cows and burn that

It could be a bit unfortunate if the cow catches her balloon on an
electric fence, ruptures it and there's a spark.


Readycooked steak?

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:20:39 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 16:34:45 GMT, raden wrote:

Do you think that your household electricity is also carbon neutral ?

What if you buy it from one of the 100% "green" suppliers? If their power
has any dino carbon emmisions can't they be done under the Trade
Descriptions Act?

Or you can buy a carbon offset for the energy you use. Ebico provide
this facility.

More details, please?

Mary

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:40:22 UTC, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Or you can buy a carbon offset for the energy you use. Ebico provide
this facility.

More details, please?

Well, it's on the same website as their power offerings, mentioned quite
a lot here.

http://www.ebico.co.uk/equiclimate/equiclimate.htm

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk