Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

EP

wrote in message
ps.com...
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

IIRC water heating can pay for itself. Electricity can't.

On 7 Oct 2006 11:19:22 -0700, wrote:

Has anyone seen this kit?

Yes.

Is it any good?

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

Steve Firth wrote:

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

Show me a comparable system for less money..

Harry.

On 7 Oct 2006 11:52:09 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:

No, and it's overpriced to an amusing extent.

Show me a comparable system for less money..

I can't show you anything that poor. However the system I have installed
cost less than half the price of the B&Q ****e, and it has 2x20 vacuum tube
solar collectors, not some cheapskate flat panel rubbish.

Steve Firth wrote:

Show me a comparable system for less money..

I can't show you anything that poor. However the system I have installed
cost less than half the price of the B&Q ****e, and it has 2x20 vacuum tube
solar collectors, not some cheapskate flat panel rubbish.

So...where did you buy these cheap vacuum tubes from..? I'd be very,
very interested in seeing a costing for a fully installed system at
less than £800..

Normally a 20 tube panel would cost £750-£1000 upwards alone and you
are looking at £2500 to £3000 for all the parts (Ex installation)

Harry

On 8 Oct 2006 09:25:44 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

So...where did you buy these cheap vacuum tubes from..?

Solaware, Bristol. They advertise regularly on eBay.

wrote in message
ps.com...
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

That's Usenet!

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

It's not.

....

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

They heat water, when there's no cloud in summer we get a lot of very hot
water, less hot when it's cloudy. In winter we get a lot of usable hot water
(no matter what the air temperature is), less when it's cloudy. Even when
the water isn't a usable temperature it's warmer than the mains so not as
much power is used to heat it to the temperature you like.

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

The B&Q kits come with all the controls, pumps etc needed for a working
system. They claim you don't ned to buy anything other than the kit
itself.

harry

"Mr Harry" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mary Fisher wrote:

As we did. But from a specialist supplier, who supplied EVERYTHING.

The B&Q kits come with all the controls, pumps etc needed for a working
system. They claim you don't ned to buy anything other than the kit
itself.

We had all that plus instructions plus very good telephone help, a 25 year
guarantee and no survey fee.

Oh, our pump is driven by a pv panel so there's no input from the grid.

We are very happy.

Mary

harry

Mary Fisher wrote:

We had all that plus instructions plus very good telephone help, a 25 year
guarantee and no survey fee.

Oh, our pump is driven by a pv panel so there's no input from the grid.

We are very happy.

I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective but it's certainly a neat solution.

Harry

"Mr Harry" wrote in message
ups.com...



I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective

Why shouldn't it be?

Mr Harry wrote:

I must admit I really like the idea of a PV powered pump. Dunno if it's
cost effective but it's certainly a neat solution.

Its a simple control system, but producing electricity by PV is not
generally cost effective. More to the point, it gives control that is
not ideal, resulting in a slight reduction in heat harvest. OTOH the
idea of no grid power consumption is often seen as a sales point.


NT

Mr Harry
Thanks for your response.

How refreshing to see facts rather than rants.

Now I'm keen to have a look at B&Q's deal.
It seems worth a consideration.
I'm keen to incorporate some value panels with a design I've been
planning for some time.

If you boast any skills in DIY/plumbing/electrics/common-sense a good
deal
will be apparent!

EP

wrote:
Mr Harry
Thanks for your response.

How refreshing to see facts rather than rants.

Now I'm keen to have a look at B&Q's deal.
It seems worth a consideration.
I'm keen to incorporate some value panels with a design I've been
planning for some time.

If you boast any skills in DIY/plumbing/electrics/common-sense a good
deal
will be apparent!

I'm not sure it's a "good deal" as such.

Yes, I haven't seen anything comparable for cheaper so in that respect
it is a good deal. However, B&Q will (Presumably) sell thousands of
these units meaning they will probably be cheaper in a year of two.

So...is the better deal to buy now and start saving on gas or wait a
couple of years until the system is cheaper but pay higher gas bills in
the meantime?

Similar happened when B&Q started selling fixed air conditioning units.
They were originally on sale for £1200 odd. Now, five or so years
later, they can be had for around £500.

Harry

On 8 Oct 2006 09:19:43 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:

So...is the better deal to buy now and start saving on gas or wait a
couple of years until the system is cheaper but pay higher gas bills in
the meantime?

Why should gas be higher?
The new pipeline is working. You "can't give wholesale gas away",
according to the press. It is good for 40 years, and more will be
discovered.

The only reason we are paying huge gas bills is because the
shareholders need profit, and we never make a fuss.


Similar happened when B&Q started selling fixed air conditioning units.
They were originally on sale for £1200 odd. Now, five or so years
later, they can be had for around £500.


The reason being that they are so hideously expensive to operate, few
can afford to have them on. I would love one in the lounge, but it is
a waste of time and money because I could not run it.

wrote:
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

I have seen these in store and they look OK!

They are made by a company called RMSolar (www.rmsolar.com) and come
with a 20 year warranty. The life expectancy is 35 years. The panels
have full certification to BS/EN12975 parts 1 & 2 and are designed
specifically for the UK climate.

There are three sizes of kit available (1 panel, 2 panel and 3 panel)
depending on your size of property. Each system includeds everything
needed for a working system.

You can either fit it yourself or get their installers to do it. There
are installation diagrams on their website. There's a £40 fee for the
initial survey where they recommend which system you need, positioning
etc. This is refunded when you purchase a system.

The system contains glycol and works down to minus 30 degrees C. They
claim that the system can generate up to 70% of your annual hot water.

Payback is about 6 years..I'm sure that as people start to buy them the
price will fall over subsequent years.

harry

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, Mr Harry wrote:

I'm sure that as people start to buy them the price will fall over
subsequent years.

So why buy now and pay an inflated price?

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:



Payback is about 6 years..

How do you work that out?
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Peter Parry wrote:

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:

Payback is about 6 years..

How do you work that out?

I didn't. It's on their spec sheet.

Maybe you'd care to come up with some figures of your own?

Harry

On 2006-10-09 15:46:25 +0100, "Mr Harry" said:


Peter Parry wrote:

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:

Payback is about 6 years..

How do you work that out?

I didn't. It's on their spec sheet.

ROTFL. Must be right then.

Reminds me of a trip I once did with my daughter to buy some revision
software. She was looking through several and then announced that one
particular one was the best. Her younger brother asked how she knew.

"It says so on the box"

On 9 Oct 2006 07:46:25 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:


Peter Parry wrote:

On 7 Oct 2006 11:48:42 -0700, "Mr Harry" wrote:

Payback is about 6 years..

How do you work that out?

I didn't. It's on their spec sheet.

Must be true then, I have a nice bridge in London for sale if you
are interested.

Maybe you'd care to come up with some figures of your own?

Certainly. A solar panel (the type makes little difference) has an
efficiency of about 30%. With UK irradiance levels and a 2.8 sq/m
panel this amounts to about 1,000kWh per annum which, with gas prices
at 3p/kWh means a saving of about GBP30 per year. Assuming you are
using peak rate electricity this goes up to about GBP100 per year, on
off peak about GBP50.

RM, like many suppliers of these things, appear to be a bit coy about
price but assume it's a fairly typical GBP1,500-3,000 I'm a bit
puzzled how saving GBP30 or even GBP50 a year for 6 years returns
GBP1,500 to 3,000? (If you are on peak rate electric its much
cheaper to opt for an overnight rate than fit a solar panel).





--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 23:06:11 +0100 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:-

A solar panel (the type makes little difference) has an
efficiency of about 30%. With UK irradiance levels and a 2.8 sq/m
panel this amounts to about 1,000kWh per annum which,

A little over 1400 kWh per annum if one takes the figures from the
table in the "How Much Heat Will I Gain?" section on
http://www.navitron.org.uk/solar_collector_panel.htm and multiplies
the daily figures by the number of days in a month.

with gas prices at 3p/kWh means a saving of about GBP30 per year.

£42 per year.

If one has a solar ready cylinder and fits the system oneself then
the cost of the bits is around £600, which gives a simple payback
period of 14 and a bit years *at present gas prices*. If one needs
to replace the cylinder then there are various options, but they
will increase the payback period.

As some of us have said before, a long term financial investment.

However, simple payback period is not the only criteria for deciding
to do something. If it was then very little would be done in some
areas.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Peter Parry wrote:

Payback is about 6 years..

How do you work that out?

I didn't. It's on their spec sheet.

Must be true then, I have a nice bridge in London for sale if you
are interested.

Maybe you'd care to come up with some figures of your own?

Certainly. A solar panel (the type makes little difference) has an
efficiency of about 30%. With UK irradiance levels and a 2.8 sq/m
panel this amounts to about 1,000kWh per annum which, with gas prices
at 3p/kWh means a saving of about GBP30 per year. Assuming you are
using peak rate electricity this goes up to about GBP100 per year, on
off peak about GBP50.

RM, like many suppliers of these things, appear to be a bit coy about
price but assume it's a fairly typical GBP1,500-3,000 I'm a bit
puzzled how saving GBP30 or even GBP50 a year for 6 years returns
GBP1,500 to 3,000? (If you are on peak rate electric its much
cheaper to opt for an overnight rate than fit a solar panel).

Working it back the other way, RMSolar claim you can save up to 70% of
your DHW costs and that the system could pay for itself in 6 years..

So..saving £1600 over six years equates to £266 per year. Therefore
the total DHW cost per year is 266/70*100=£380.

So, their figures are certainly based on a large house but they are not
completely out of the water.

It should also be remembered that if gas prices coninue to rise then
you'll obviously recoup your investment quicker.

In addition remember that it's not just about saving money..it's about
saving resources too..

harry

Peter Parry wrote:

Certainly. A solar panel (the type makes little difference) has an
efficiency of about 30%.

Odd thing to say.

NT

wrote:
Someone has generated a huge debate about B&Q entry into
the toy-end of the windmill business.

Whatever you think about the national needs, it's a tad irrelevant
for the householder / DIYer .....

(Please don't let's argue wind power here.... this is about solar
panels
for DHW)

BUT, B&Q has also announced that they will be selling DIY Solar
water heating panels and fittings.

Has anyone seen this kit?
Is it any good?

Do they have worksheets with ideas for fitting?
I'm keen to put something simple on my roof to clip off something
off my DHW costs.

Any ideas about what these panels could generate and how they could be
used?

EP

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

.... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it out
!!!

Nick

In message , Nick
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it out
!!!

Wallflower that I am, I have a significant difficulty with biofuels
being carbon neutral

less damaging, maybe (well, almost without doubt) but a carbon footprint
of nothing ? I don't think so

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Nick
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
Staffbull writes

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.



That's an interesting assertion

... and a total load of ********

--
geoff

Come on Geoff, don't sit on the fence - if you have an opinion, spit it
out
!!!

Wallflower that I am, I have a significant difficulty with biofuels being
carbon neutral

less damaging, maybe (well, almost without doubt) but a carbon footprint
of nothing ? I don't think so

If you run your tractors on biofuels as well, then the only CO2 output I can
see is the fuel used to purify / pump water for irrigation and fertilisers.

On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 21:29:47 GMT, raden wrote:

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen
as it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

That's an interesting assertion

.... and a total load of ********

Well there is the little matter of 48.32p/litre of duty of road diesel
which isn't on heating oil and VAT is only 5% on domestic heating oil so
it's ******** regarding cost.

Also I'm not sure I'd want to run a modern pressure jet heating boiler on
SVO which is heavier than diesel. Heating oil is lighter than diesel and
burns very cleanly.

However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:


However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission. New Scientist recently
reported that to meet the EU's aim of 10% of fuels being biofuels would,
using present crops, require 72% of Europe's agricultural land. That is
why the Indonesians are chopping down the rainforest in Borneo so they
can plant yet more oil palms so they can ship the product to the rich
Westerners, using you guesed it, more carbon in the ship.

So rather than planting yet more oilseed rape we need to think laterally
and this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae, the oil is then removed and the waste can be treated
with enzymes and used as feedstock in ethanol production. There are
pilot plants operating in the States.

A New Zealand company has developed a method for extracting oil from
algae grown on sewerage ponds. Yes, **** to fuel. Turning waste into
fuel makes much more sense than using agricultural land, no tractors, no
fertilizer, minimal harvest cost and where the people are, there's ****
so minimal transport costs.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country

On 2006-10-08, Peter Ashby wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:


However true biofuel has a zero carbon footprint as the carbon in it came
from the CO2 in the air as the plants grew and released the O2 back. The
sooner that decent sized commercial plants are built to produce/recycle
vegetable based oils for fuel the better but I bet HMG will stifle it by
upping the duty (currently 28.32p/l) on it once it becomes widely
available.

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest the
crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

An extensive academic study I saw recently concluded that biodiesel
suitable for cars is not 100% effifient WRT carbon neutrality but
actually 79% efficient.

--
John Phillips

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:58:14 GMT, Peter Ashby wrote:

It is zero carbon if you ignore the machines used to till the soil,
apply fertiliser, make the fertizer, deliver the fertilizer, harvest
the crop, extract the oil, etc. etc.

I knew someone would mention the machines and process but that *could* be
run on biofuel not dino. B-) Fertilizer as you say further down plenty
of **** about, regularly gets spread on the fields round here.

No biofuels operation anywhere is zero emission.

And probably never will be, if your fertilizer comes from cattle they
fart prodigious quantities of methane, another greenhouse gas. B-)

... this week's NS has what may well be the solution, algae. You can
take the CO2 effluent from a power plant and run it through bioreactors
that grow algae,

I agree algae or other micro organisms is probably a better method than
waiting for plants to grow, harvest, transport, extract etc.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Peter Ashby wrote:

A New Zealand company has developed a method for extracting oil from
algae grown on sewerage ponds. Yes, **** to fuel. Turning waste into
fuel makes much more sense than using agricultural land, no tractors, no
fertilizer, minimal harvest cost and where the people are, there's ****
so minimal transport costs.

IIRC, Tomorrow's World carried a story (probably 20 years ago now) about
an algae based water purification system that also yielded bio diesel as
an end result (from dead algae), it operated as an exothermic reaction
that powered a heat pump to produce enough electrcity to run the lights
that kept the algae photosynthesising. When you burnt the diesel you got
water and co2. Promoted as a win win situation at the time - needless to
say I have never heard anything more about it since!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 7 Oct 2006 12:24:05 -0700, "Staffbull" wrote:

I'm surprised bio oils have not been played with to fuel oil fired
boilers ( I'd be in like a shot) I used to run a Mitsubishi Pajero on
neat Veg oil :-) ran like a dream, just made me hungry with the smell
:-). Biofuel technology must sureley be a winner, it lets out oxygen as
it grows and so its carbon footprint is nil.

Biofuels on a large scale give you the option of either eating food in
the manner to which you have become accustomed ........or going hungry
whilst driving round in an "eco friendly" car.


--

For some realistic pricing from a good company:

http://shop.navitron.org.uk/product....hFor=&PT_ID=60

http://www.navitron.org.uk/