I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

dg

On 4 Oct 2006 11:15:00 -0700, "dg" wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

The value is what people are prepared to pay. It has no connection
with the cost of the parts.

--
Frank Erskine

On 2006-10-04 19:15:00 +0100, "dg" said:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

dg

They are not *valued* at £1500 at all. The price charged is what
they believe sufficient people will pay to justify the shelf space.
It also gives them plenty of room for manoeuvre when the inevitable
happens and they don't sell. They could probably knock 60% off the
price and still make a reasonable margin,

Also, AIUI, the price includes a survey and fitting.

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 11:15:00 -0700, "dg" wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

The value is what people are prepared to pay. It has no connection
with the cost of the parts.

It's also the cost of R&D. Try making your own - go on!

Mary

--
Frank Erskine

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 11:15:00 -0700, "dg" wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

The value is what people are prepared to pay. It has no connection
with the cost of the parts.

It's also the cost of R&D. Try making your own - go on!

Mary

--
Frank Erskine

What R&D?

The motor seems to be some off the shelf model and the propeller, well
same as those on some 1850 farm bore hole.

The only thing to be 'developed' may well be the electronic box, but
that I presume would be a basic convertor circuit, again nothing new.

dg

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 11:15:00 -0700, "dg" wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

The value is what people are prepared to pay. It has no connection
with the cost of the parts.

It's also the cost of R&D. Try making your own - go on!

Mary

--
Frank Erskine

What R&D?

The motor seems to be some off the shelf model and the propeller, well
same as those on some 1850 farm bore hole.

The only thing to be 'developed' may well be the electronic box, but
that I presume would be a basic convertor circuit, again nothing new.

dg

dg wrote:
I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

dg

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 11:15:00 -0700, "dg" wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a
motor, on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for
a fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

The value is what people are prepared to pay. It has no connection
with the cost of the parts.

It's also the cost of R&D. Try making your own - go on!


http://www.britishwindenergy.co.uk/you/byo.html R&D already done.

dg wrote:

I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q,

For a good web article on DIY that's about as DIY as it comes, read the
design and constructional details on building one from a Volvo 240
front strut
http://www.otherpower.com/trips1.html

On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 20:05:51 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

It's also the cost of R&D. Try making your own - go on!

Plenty of R&D has already been done on DIY wind turbines, and plenty of
plans on the net. Trouble is the effort probably isn't worth it for the
small outputs that you are going to get from an turbine you can construct
at home without specialist kit.

As I see it wind is not really the way to go. To get sensible outputs you
have to have huge devices(*) that on average only generate 1/3 to 1/4 of
their rated output over a year.

In the relative scheme of things as well not just the rotating jumbo jet
on a pole 2MW commercial turbines. Even a small 2kW "domestic" jobbie has
a rotor around 2.5m in diameter on top of pole at least 5m high. And note
that those powers are peak powers not what you'll actualy get most of the
time.

Small turbines with rotors less than 1m in dia generate no more than a
few hundred watts OK for battery charging on a boat when the boat isn't
in use but for a house not worth it. To put this in perspective, a 500W
or so wind turbine couldn't keep a large battery bank charged in the long
term to power 3 Cisco wireless bridges, a router and switch. And this was
on top of a hill with good exposure to strong winds...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 2006-10-04 21:05:03 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:



Small turbines with rotors less than 1m in dia generate no more than a
few hundred watts OK for battery charging on a boat when the boat isn't
in use but for a house not worth it. To put this in perspective, a 500W
or so wind turbine couldn't keep a large battery bank charged in the
long term to power 3 Cisco wireless bridges, a router and switch. And
this was on top of a hill with good exposure to strong winds...

What did you do instead?

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2006-10-04 21:05:03 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:



Small turbines with rotors less than 1m in dia generate no more than a
few hundred watts OK for battery charging on a boat when the boat
isn't in use but for a house not worth it. To put this in perspective,
a 500W or so wind turbine couldn't keep a large battery bank charged
in the long term to power 3 Cisco wireless bridges, a router and
switch. And this was on top of a hill with good exposure to strong
winds...

What did you do instead?


Went bust I should think, or dug some cable...

Definitely micro windpower is a waste of time and fossil fuels.

You would be better off making a small steam engine and burning your
rubbish.

Hmm...that IS a thought actually..and an electric fan once it gets going
to 'turbocharge' the boiler..

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"dg" wrote in message
ups.com...

... How much would the parts be?

Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
from other bits of scrap.

If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they are
and are keeping quiet about the results :-)

Mary

Colin Bignell

dg wrote:
I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

Its a bit more than that, though not a huge amount. The motor has to be
a type that offers near zero starting torque, which rules most motors
out. It also has to be one where low speed can produce the wanted
output, which again rules many out. It also should preferably be PM
field to avoid losses, though there are some excited field gens around.


Standard PM field motors dont start effortlessly, so no off the shelf
motor satisfies all the requirements. However if you want to make a
no-cost compromise design, a car alternator is a fairly good choice.
The controllable field makes it more efficient at higher speeds, as you
can reduce excitation to reduce V_out. The downside is at low speeds a
significant amount of your output is simply supplying the field coils.


How are these valued at over £1500

theyre priced at 1500, the miniscule sales volume shows that theyre not
valued at 1500. The price comes from business costs, if you only sell
10 units a year you have to divide your total biz costs by 10 and add
that to the price of each unit sold.


when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

£50 should cover it. Car alternator, wood or metal for the prop, steel
pole, brake drum for the rotating mount, some control electronics,
tailfin assembly, overspeed brake, service brake, and rotatable power
conductor. There are lots of plans around for making them from scrap.


NT

Owain wrote:

Not much if you make a savonious rotor with an old oil drum.

Have you ever seen such a thing do more than power a lightbulb though?
Propellors beat a Savonius design every time, for any load bigger than
a spinning advertising sign

(yes, I've built several of both)

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 21:39:12 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

To put this in perspective, a 500W or so wind turbine couldn't keep a
large battery bank charged in the long term to power 3 Cisco wireless
bridges, a router and switch. And this was on top of a hill with good
exposure to strong winds...

What did you do instead?

Went bust I should think, or dug some cable...

Spent £2,000 with the local power company for a mains conection at the TV
transmitter a couple of hundred yards along the hill top. ISTR that that
2k was just for the connection though may have include the cable. We used
a local contrcator to dig and fill the trench.

Definitely micro windpower is a waste of time and fossil fuels.

Another site with two large solar panels (2' x 5' approx) and wind
turbine couldn't hack it either. Tea leaves helping themselves to the
panels didn't help that site has been abandonded.

It's worth noting that both sites had winds sufficient to break three
turbines in total. One was supposed to be rated up to 120mph or so...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The message . com
from contains these words:

Have you ever seen such a thing do more than power a lightbulb though?
Propellors beat a Savonius design every time, for any load bigger than
a spinning advertising sign

Those spinning advertising signs are sodding dangerous. I saw a toddler
get his head seriously smashed by one once. Just toddled into it on a
windy day. Some of them are very solidly made and have considerable
rotating mass and no apparent overspeed braking.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen one for quite a while.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 2006-10-04 23:08:36 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:



Spent £2,000 with the local power company for a mains conection at the
TV transmitter a couple of hundred yards along the hill top. ISTR that
that 2k was just for the connection though may have include the cable.
We use d a local contrcator to dig and fill the trench.


Did that get you use of the container for the WiFi gear and antennas on
the mast? or how did you handle those aspects?

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:56:59 +0100, Owain wrote:

- you have a private hydro-electric plant with sufficient stored water
to avoid the need for battery storage (hydro-electric plant needing
comparatively little maintenance)

This is one that could produce a lot of power with little on going costs
or waste problems (be that waste CO2 or radioactive). There are a number
of reservors around here all are lteting water down to keep the rivers
below them flowing. Is there a hydro plant at the bottom of the dams to
utilise that free energy source nope...

There is a 675kW hydro plant in the next village. Uses an old industrial
dam built to provide power to the water wheels used in the lead works. I
doubt many people know it's there. It looks like a slightly large garage
and the only noise come from the outflow tube and that is not audible
more than 50yds away. 675kW is about 1/3 of power demand for this area...
This plant "uses" much less water than is being let down from Cow Green
24/7.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:03:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Spent £2,000 with the local power company for a mains conection at
the TV transmitter a couple of hundred yards along the hill top.

Did that get you use of the container for the WiFi gear and antennas on
the mast? or how did you handle those aspects?

No it just got a mains power feed from the TV Tx to our site. We had
already got the WiFi kit in place and mast up by "utilising and making
safe" the old 405 line transmitter building and mast.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"dg" wrote in message
ups.com...

... How much would the parts be?

Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest from
other bits of scrap.

Colin Bignell

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You would be better off making a small steam engine and burning your
rubbish.

Hmm...that IS a thought actually..and an electric fan once it gets going
to 'turbocharge' the boiler..

There are all kinds of regulations and qualifications needed when you
have a steam boiler, because they are dangerous when they blow up.
But to avoid that why have a steam reservoir at all? Just have a block
of hot steel, and inject some water when needed that turns into steam
and runs a turbine & generator.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"dg" wrote in message
ups.com...

... How much would the parts be?

Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
from other bits of scrap.

If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they
are and are keeping quiet about the results :-)

Generating electricity from wind turbines is not difficult. Generating it
when you need it is more of a problem. The B&Q turbines rely upon mains
electricity as a backup. Using the mains supply as the secondary source used
to be a breach of most domestic electricity supply contracts and selling
domestically generated electricity to the generating companies was once
quite unheard of.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 04:37:56 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname
here.uk.com wrote:

|
|"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
.net...
|
| "nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
| ...
|
| "dg" wrote in message
| ups.com...
|
| ... How much would the parts be?
|
| Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
| from other bits of scrap.
|
| If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they
| are and are keeping quiet about the results :-)
|
|Generating electricity from wind turbines is not difficult. Generating it
|when you need it is more of a problem. The B&Q turbines rely upon mains
|electricity as a backup. Using the mains supply as the secondary source used
|to be a breach of most domestic electricity supply contracts and selling
|domestically generated electricity to the generating companies was once
|quite unheard of.

Worse synchronising the turbine output with mains AC at the correct
frequency, phase etc, then adjusting the phase angle to feed power back
into the mains is **VERY** **VERY** difficult. If you do not understand
what I said above it is more or less impossible.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

"dg" wrote:
I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

How are these valued at over £1500 when it seems it can be made for a
fraction of that? How much would the parts be?

dg
-----------------------------------------------

It is one of the more difficult diy projects but you can definitely build
your own. There's lots of info on the net, e.g.,
http://www.britishwindenergy.co.uk/you/byo.html
Good luck!

On 2006-10-05 01:07:05 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" said:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:03:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Spent £2,000 with the local power company for a mains conection at

the TV transmitter a couple of hundred yards along the hill top.

Did that get you use of the container for the WiFi gear and antennas o
n
the mast? or how did you handle those aspects?

No it just got a mains power feed from the TV Tx to our site. We had
already got the WiFi kit in place and mast up by "utilising and making
safe" the old 405 line transmitter building and mast.

Ah OK. So are you then able to do an omnidirectional coverage of a
large-ish area or is this to get the height/distance for a longer point
to point connection?

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You would be better off making a small steam engine and burning your
rubbish.

Hmm...that IS a thought actually..and an electric fan once it gets going
to 'turbocharge' the boiler..

You don't even need that - just a good chimney and steam injectors to
give it a bit of a push.

A 250psi boiler full of superheated steam (at a few 100C) is a different
"kettle" of fish to manage though...

Gordon

wrote:
dg wrote:
I noticed a wind turbine in B&Q, and it is nothing more than a motor,
on a pole with a propellor and some box of electronics.

Its a bit more than that, though not a huge amount. The motor has to
be a type that offers near zero starting torque, which rules most
motors out. It also has to be one where low speed can produce the
wanted output, which again rules many out. It also should preferably
be PM field to avoid losses, though there are some excited field gens
around.

It looks like a standard 6 pole AC induction motor to me - the electronics
control box has to be powered externally so I suspect they're running a
speed controller with zero speed demand, which'd magnetise the motor enough
to regen back into the mains as the motor shaft moves.....

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 06:13:52 +0100 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Worse synchronising the turbine output with mains AC at the correct
frequency, phase etc, then adjusting the phase angle to feed power back
into the mains is **VERY** **VERY** difficult.

It *was* difficult in the days of manual control systems. However,
engineering has advanced and now it is very easy, simply a matter of
connecting the box between turbine and mains.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:03:20 +0100 (BST) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

There are a number
of reservors around here all are lteting water down to keep the rivers
below them flowing. Is there a hydro plant at the bottom of the dams to
utilise that free energy source nope...

Then their owner is missing an opportunity. A growing number of
small turbines have been installed in just this situation.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

dennis@home wrote:

http://www.britishwindenergy.co.uk/you/byo.html R&D already done.

There's a link on there to Hugh Piggott's site at

http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm

which is quite interesting (although not a model for good Web page
design). About half-way down the page there's a section headed "rooftop
wind turbines are a load of nonsense" - interesting that, coming, as it
does, from an obvious home-brew wind power enthusiast.

--
Andy

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 06:13:52 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Worse synchronising the turbine output with mains AC at the correct
frequency, phase etc, then adjusting the phase angle to feed power back
into the mains is **VERY** **VERY** difficult.

No it's not. Bung it across the mains and it will sync *very* quickly,
probably to the detriment of part of your kit though depending on how far
out you are. B-)

Commercial boxes can be bought that do everything but these small
turbines generate so little power that that expense probably isn't
justified. So you then either have a LV battery supply and distribution
or some seperate mains via an invertor to seperate mains distribution.

Also the control box needs to fail safe. It *must* disconnect your
generated power from the mains when the mains fails but if you are
feeding the mains how does it know that the mains has failed?

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 21:05:03 +0100 (BST) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

As I see it wind is not really the way to go. To get sensible outputs you
have to have huge devices(*) that on average only generate 1/3 to 1/4 of
their rated output over a year.

The uninformed might believe your statement indicates that there is
something different about wind turbines. However, it is a fact that
all forms of electricity generation do not produce 100% of their
rated output over a year.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:08:28 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

Ah OK. So are you then able to do an omnidirectional coverage of a
large-ish area or is this to get the height/distance for a longer point
to point connection?

This is a point to point site with links up to 5km or so. APs are also
located at good sites and some user links are a few km long. Generally
outside of the town there is a small flat plate antenna at the AP and
short yagi at the user end.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:12:54 UTC, David Hansen
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 01:03:20 +0100 (BST) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

There are a number
of reservors around here all are lteting water down to keep the rivers
below them flowing. Is there a hydro plant at the bottom of the dams to
utilise that free energy source nope...

Then their owner is missing an opportunity. A growing number of
small turbines have been installed in just this situation.

Rudyard Kipling did it in 1903...!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 2006-10-05 09:10:41 +0100, David Hansen
said:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 06:13:52 +0100 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Worse synchronising the turbine output with mains AC at the correct
frequency, phase etc, then adjusting the phase angle to feed power back
into the mains is **VERY** **VERY** difficult.

It *was* difficult in the days of manual control systems. However,
engineering has advanced and now it is very easy, simply a matter of
connecting the box between turbine and mains.

It's just that the whole exercise was pointless, is pointless and
always will be pointless apart from to those gullible enough to spend
£1500 on junk in B&Q (and buy Lottery tickets). As long as no return
is expected, both seem eminently sensible.

On 2006-10-05 09:28:44 +0100, Huge said:

On 2006-10-04, Owain wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
from other bits of scrap.
If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they
are and are keeping quiet about the results :-)

Because by the time you take into account the miserable amount of power
available and the cost of a large bank of batteries to store it (and
their periodic replacement), it works out several times the cost per
unit compared to buying electricity from the mains.

The last time I worked it out for here (when our 'leccy bill hit
GBP1K/annum) the repay time for an aerogenerator was in excess of
its expected lifetime. Waste of money. We've started an aggressive
electricity saving campaign instead.

Must be running all those GSRs in the shed ;-)

In article , Huge
writes
On 2006-10-04, Owain wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
from other bits of scrap.
If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they are
and are keeping quiet about the results :-)

Because by the time you take into account the miserable amount of power
available and the cost of a large bank of batteries to store it (and
their periodic replacement), it works out several times the cost per
unit compared to buying electricity from the mains.

The last time I worked it out for here (when our 'leccy bill hit
GBP1K/annum) the repay time for an aerogenerator was in excess of
its expected lifetime. Waste of money. We've started an aggressive
electricity saving campaign instead.



Along the lines of "Put that bloody light out" as per warden Hodges in
Dads army
--
Tony Sayer

David Hansen wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 06:13:52 +0100 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
wrote this:-

Worse synchronising the turbine output with mains AC at the correct
frequency, phase etc, then adjusting the phase angle to feed power back
into the mains is **VERY** **VERY** difficult.

It *was* difficult in the days of manual control systems. However,
engineering has advanced and now it is very easy, simply a matter of
connecting the box between turbine and mains.



Yup. Sounds like a case for a nice PIC controlled inverter.

And the genny itself is no big deal. Plenty of up to 3KW PM motrs that
would make decent generators, sround.

The problem is that it doesn't work, because the wind is fractious and
inconstant at ground level.

FAR better and more cost effective to put one or two MW scale turbines
off the West coast of Scotland than equip suburbia with turbines.

Or simply burn rubbish.

Huge wrote:
On 2006-10-04, Owain wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
Traditionally, you use the generator from an old bus and make the rest
from other bits of scrap.
If it's so easy I wonder why aren't people doing it ... or perhaps they are
and are keeping quiet about the results :-)
Because by the time you take into account the miserable amount of power
available and the cost of a large bank of batteries to store it (and
their periodic replacement), it works out several times the cost per
unit compared to buying electricity from the mains.

The last time I worked it out for here (when our 'leccy bill hit
GBP1K/annum) the repay time for an aerogenerator was in excess of
its expected lifetime. Waste of money. We've started an aggressive
electricity saving campaign instead.


Indeed.

Its like all those diet fads.

I once saw this girl who had lost a remarkable amount of wight -
actually I saw her a few days ago, and she is still remarkably well
formed after over 12 years since that time..the secret..? "Eat less" she
said....