I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle?

According to BM Trada, that is acceptable, although it says this is a
minimum requirement and recommends you have more if possible.

Above 4.5m span, you should have 2 intermediate struts, so you are getting
into marginal territory for 1 intermediate with your 4.2m span.

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf

Christian.

Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring


These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO.

cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
the better.

The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike
noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work.

These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO.

cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
the better.

The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike
noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work.

I had assumed soild noggins were the better choice? Aren't noggins
convenient to position the joints between plasterboard sheets under?

Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring



On mine (same span) I had one run of them down the middle, this was
fine for BCO, :-) 22mm chip floor on the top and all is well :-)

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring
These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO.

cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the
better.

The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins,
which really need to be mm perfect to work.



I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent
joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e.
to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw?

Have I totally missed how these are fitted?

Cheers,
Chris

cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
the better.

I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of
adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the
joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand
saw?

I presume he means wooden herringbone strutting. This a couple of advantages
over the metal sort. Firstly, it is cheaper. You just cut up battenning for
it. Secondly, you can attach to the face of the joist, rather than the top
and bottom, which might not be accessible in a retofit context.

Christian.

They're there to prevent racking, so bottom edge of one face of one
joist connected to the top the next face of the next joist - and vice
versa - giving a diagonal/herringbone pattern.

No point in connecting tops to tops or bottoms to bottoms as the
floorboards and plasterboards do that already

I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent
joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e.
to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw?

Have I totally missed how these are fitted?

Cheers,
Chris

I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

Herringbone is superior in every respect:

1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood)
3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required)
4. Easier to run cables/pipework.
5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

Herringbone is superior in every respect:

1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood)
3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required)
4. Easier to run cables/pipework.
5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction.

Christian.

I want to remove a wall under some joists and it'll mean the span will
go up to 4.5m. The joists are 2*7.5 (or 47mm*190mm) and I cant find
any table to tell me if this is acceptable. For 400mm spacing this is
just over th elimit but on mine the gap to the first joist is 400mm
then there are two close together like 150mm then another 400mm.
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?

Thanks for ther TRADA link, it makes good reading.

http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf

There are a few constraint in what I am doing :

1) I dont have access to the underside of the joists, beacause I have a
ceiling there already, which rules out the metal straps
2) The new joists are going on on 400mm centres between the 600mm centred
trusses, which means 2 out of three of the gaps will have a
3) The regs say that noggins need to be 3/4 of the depth of the joist

I am fitting 9" joists, which means i'd need 6.75" noggins. However, a 6"
noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which means
I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically out of
the question...

Now, given that I dont plan to live in my loft i'm only flooring for
storage, and that i'm not after BCO approval, and by the sound of it some
people in older houses have hardly any strutting anyway, can anyone venture
a guess at what I would safely get away with, regardless of BCO regs etc?
For instance, if I used 100mm noggins and 22mm T7G floorboards, would that
be good enough to use occassionally and store, even though it wouldnt meet
the regs?

Cheers
Chris

Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?

You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance
intermediate.

Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will
comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice
from your BCO.

Christian.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Christian McArdle wrote:
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

Herringbone is superior in every respect:

1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood)
3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required)
4. Easier to run cables/pipework.
5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction.

Christian.

I want to remove a wall under some joists and it'll mean the span will
go up to 4.5m. The joists are 2*7.5 (or 47mm*190mm) and I cant find
any table to tell me if this is acceptable. For 400mm spacing this is
just over th elimit but on mine the gap to the first joist is 400mm
then there are two close together like 150mm then another 400mm.
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?


I used this as a guide...

http://www.worthing.gov.uk/Planning/...fTimberJoists/

Not sure if houses in Worthing are particularly safe or dangerous, but it
seemed likea good guide

It is also consisent with my builder friends rule of where you halve the
span (in feet) add 2, and that is the depth of the rquired joist in inches
(for a 2" wide joist)

I am fitting 9" joists, which means i'd need 6.75" noggins. However, a 6"
noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which
means I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically
out of the question...

Just use wooden herringbone, as discussed elsewhere. Cut up battenning
material for it, particularly easy if you have a compound mitre saw. The
6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom mounting,
as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood.

It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is
accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?

You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance
intermediate.

Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will
comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice
from your BCO.

Christian.

Where is the strutting requirement? I've looked in document A and
couldn't see anything in there about it. Is it all up to BCO's
discretion or are there actual guidance documents out there somewhere?

wrote in message
ups.com...

Christian McArdle wrote:
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?

You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance
intermediate.

Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down
will
comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice
from your BCO.

Christian.

Where is the strutting requirement? I've looked in document A and
couldn't see anything in there about it. Is it all up to BCO's
discretion or are there actual guidance documents out there somewhere?



http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf

Bottom of page #4

For domesic floors 4.5m span, 2 struts at 1/3 spacing...

The 6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom
mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood.

Ahh... okay, that makes sense

It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is
accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment.

But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so
if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the
400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont
butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like
shoddyness...

But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so
if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the
400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont
butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like
shoddyness...

Obviously you should try your best to be accurate. However, 2mm won't make
the slightest difference with herringbone. With a nogging, 2mm inaccuracy is
as wide as an ocean.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

Herringbone is superior in every respect:

1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood)
3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required)
4. Easier to run cables/pipework.
5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction.

The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
support overlapping boards. They are used in walls to support
radiators/shelves etc and if filling the full width of the stud have
the same effect as herringboned strut or strapping.

Since the studwork in walls is generally the same material as the
noggings, they also stop the studs moving sideways. I can't for the
life of me understand how steel studding manages to stay up without
it's equivalent.

wrote:

I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.

You can cut diagonal timber herringbone easily with a mitre saw..
probably cheaper since it only needs to be quite skinny. The slight
advantage of the galvanised stuff is it takes less height and hence can
be simpler to get pipes past.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Chris Styles wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring
These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO.

cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the
better.

The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins,
which really need to be mm perfect to work.



I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent
joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e.
to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw?

Have I totally missed how these are fitted?

Cheers,
Chris

from top of one joist to bottom of next, likewise bootom of same joist
to top, makes an X between joists, makes em stiff as F*&K

Chris Styles wrote:
The 6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom
mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood.

Ahh... okay, that makes sense

It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is
accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment.

But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so
if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the
400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont
butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like
shoddyness...


Houses are full of covered up shoddiness.

Wrote:


I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins,
and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.
-
-


Herringbone struts are far superior to solid noggins but will take a
bit longer to put in. The problem with solid bracing is that any
shrinkage in the joists will cause the noggins to loosen causing sqeaks
etc, whereas with herringbone stuts any joist shrinkage ( which is
mostly across the grain i.e. reducing the depth ) will actually tighten
the struts. I've recently had to take up two different wooden floors and
then glue wedges into solid noggins to stop them sqeaking. Its a fact
that a lot of sqeaking floors can be traced to poorly fitting solid
bracing.




--
Nick H

The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
support overlapping boards.

Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is
effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only
the actually stressed bits remaining.

Obviously, supporting boards is another matter!

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
support overlapping boards.

Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is
effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only
the actually stressed bits remaining.


Not quite, as others have pointed out, joist shrinkage or strut
shrinkage is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin -
assuming the things are screwed down tightly.

Obviously, supporting boards is another matter!

Christian.

Not quite, as others have pointed out, joist shrinkage or strut shrinkage
is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin - assuming the things
are screwed down tightly.

Please sir! I mentioned it first!

Christian.

replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
Herringbone is superior in every respect:
1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
susceptible to expansion/contraction.
Christian.

I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in
wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...ns-296762-.htm

On Friday, 14 October 2016 03:14:04 UTC+1, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:

Herringbone is superior in every respect:
1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
susceptible to expansion/contraction.
Christian.

I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in
wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer

you need a sane portal to this newsgroup. The one you're using isn't.


NT

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:10 14 Oct 2016, wrote:

On Friday, 14 October 2016 03:14:04 UTC+1, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:

Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less
dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run
cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to
expansion/contraction. Christian.


I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking
strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many
complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking,
this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the
herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer


you need a sane portal to this newsgroup. The one you're using
isn't.

NT

I see your reply appeared on the web page but I wonder how long
will it will stay there. Do their mods censor replies they don't
like?

http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...s-instead-of-n
oggins-296762-.htm
I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see that
he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or
"newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil organisation
that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It looks
like their mods didn't understand "portal" either.
--
Dave

Dave W wrote:

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 10:10 14 Oct 2016, wrote:

On Friday, 14 October 2016 03:14:04 UTC+1, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:

Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less
dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run
cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to
expansion/contraction. Christian.


I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking
strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many
complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking,
this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the
herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer


you need a sane portal to this newsgroup. The one you're using
isn't.

NT

I see your reply appeared on the web page but I wonder how long
will it will stay there. Do their mods censor replies they don't
like?

http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...s-instead-of-n
oggins-296762-.htm
I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see that
he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or
"newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil organisation
that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It looks
like their mods didn't understand "portal" either.

They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
something that was freely given and in the public domain.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Dave W wrote:

I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see
that
he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or
"newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil
organisation
that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It
looks
like their mods didn't understand "portal" either.

They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
something that was freely given and in the public domain.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Maybe "steal" is the wrong word. Certainly they don't declare their source,
and pass it off as their own.
--
Dave W

On Tuesday, 24 October 2006 11:36:04 UTC+1, Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.

Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?

One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?

Any sugegstions welcome.

Cheers
Chris


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring

You can buy ready made metal ones.

On 14/10/2016 03:14, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
susceptible to expansion/contraction.
Christian.

I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can
occur in
wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted
tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer


Silentfloor joists even better

In message , rick
writes
On 14/10/2016 03:14, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
susceptible to expansion/contraction.
Christian.

I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can
occur in
wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted
tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer


Silentfloor joists even better

Ah. Noisy modern floors. I don't recall tongue and groove flooring being
noisy until they introduced chipboard.

Is there a way round this? Glue? Screws? Talcum powder?

--
Tim Lamb

On 14/10/2016 15:30, Tim+ wrote:
They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
something that was freely given and in the public domain.

They don't resurrect ancient messages. They post them up in much the
same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.

It's their users who can't understand dates.

Andy

Vir Campestris wrote:
On 14/10/2016 15:30, Tim+ wrote:
They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
something that was freely given and in the public domain.

They don't resurrect ancient messages.

Wrong. They do. Just have a look at the website and you'll see ancient
posts being promoted as top posts or unanswered question with no reference
to the age of the messages they're promoting.

They post them up in much the
same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.

Only when you look past the front few pages. They most definitely DO
promote old messages to generate traffic.


It's their users who can't understand dates.

Do you really think that all the numpties responding to ancient threads are
doing so because they don't know how to read dates? No, it's because HOH is
deliberately making it hard to see the dates and/or promoting old threads.
Sure, there will be a few numpties but it's clear that the majority or
responders have no idea that they're responding to old messages.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 16/10/2016 21:51, Vir Campestris wrote:


They don't resurrect ancient messages. They post them up in much the
same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.


Go in via their home page and you will see a scrolling list of questions
with no indication of the date they were posted. Its only later that
users of that site are given any indication that the question may have
been posted 10 or 15 years earlier.

The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday.

There is also another list of topics titled ' do have answers to these
questions' with no dates at all given

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 16/10/2016 22:11, Tim+ wrote:
Wrong. They do. Just have a look at the website and you'll see ancient
posts being promoted as top posts

On 16/10/2016 22:28, alan_m wrote:

The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday.

I stand (sit?) corrected.

Andy