herringbone straps instead of noggins
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?
One either end and one in the middle? According to BM Trada, that is acceptable, although it says this is a minimum requirement and recommends you have more if possible. Above 4.5m span, you should have 2 intermediate struts, so you are getting into marginal territory for 1 intermediate with your 4.2m span. http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage. These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO. cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the better. The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO.
cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the better. The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work. I had assumed soild noggins were the better choice? Aren't noggins convenient to position the joints between plasterboard sheets under? |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Chris Styles wrote: I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage. These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring On mine (same span) I had one run of them down the middle, this was fine for BCO, :-) 22mm chip floor on the top and all is well :-) |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... Chris Styles wrote: I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage. These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO. cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the better. The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work. I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw? Have I totally missed how these are fitted? Cheers, Chris |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
the better. I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw? I presume he means wooden herringbone strutting. This a couple of advantages over the metal sort. Firstly, it is cheaper. You just cut up battenning for it. Secondly, you can attach to the face of the joist, rather than the top and bottom, which might not be accessible in a retofit context. Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
They're there to prevent racking, so bottom edge of one face of one
joist connected to the top the next face of the next joist - and vice versa - giving a diagonal/herringbone pattern. No point in connecting tops to tops or bottoms to bottoms as the floorboards and plasterboards do that already I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw? Have I totally missed how these are fitted? Cheers, Chris |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Christian McArdle wrote: I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I want to remove a wall under some joists and it'll mean the span will go up to 4.5m. The joists are 2*7.5 (or 47mm*190mm) and I cant find any table to tell me if this is acceptable. For 400mm spacing this is just over th elimit but on mine the gap to the first joist is 400mm then there are two close together like 150mm then another 400mm. Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think? |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Thanks for ther TRADA link, it makes good reading.
http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf There are a few constraint in what I am doing : 1) I dont have access to the underside of the joists, beacause I have a ceiling there already, which rules out the metal straps 2) The new joists are going on on 400mm centres between the 600mm centred trusses, which means 2 out of three of the gaps will have a 3) The regs say that noggins need to be 3/4 of the depth of the joist I am fitting 9" joists, which means i'd need 6.75" noggins. However, a 6" noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which means I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically out of the question... Now, given that I dont plan to live in my loft i'm only flooring for storage, and that i'm not after BCO approval, and by the sound of it some people in older houses have hardly any strutting anyway, can anyone venture a guess at what I would safely get away with, regardless of BCO regs etc? For instance, if I used 100mm noggins and 22mm T7G floorboards, would that be good enough to use occassionally and store, even though it wouldnt meet the regs? Cheers Chris |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?
You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance intermediate. Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice from your BCO. Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
wrote in message oups.com... Christian McArdle wrote: I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I want to remove a wall under some joists and it'll mean the span will go up to 4.5m. The joists are 2*7.5 (or 47mm*190mm) and I cant find any table to tell me if this is acceptable. For 400mm spacing this is just over th elimit but on mine the gap to the first joist is 400mm then there are two close together like 150mm then another 400mm. Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think? I used this as a guide... http://www.worthing.gov.uk/Planning/...fTimberJoists/ Not sure if houses in Worthing are particularly safe or dangerous, but it seemed likea good guide It is also consisent with my builder friends rule of where you halve the span (in feet) add 2, and that is the depth of the rquired joist in inches (for a 2" wide joist) |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
I am fitting 9" joists, which means i'd need 6.75" noggins. However, a 6"
noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which means I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically out of the question... Just use wooden herringbone, as discussed elsewhere. Cut up battenning material for it, particularly easy if you have a compound mitre saw. The 6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood. It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment. Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Christian McArdle wrote: Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think? You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance intermediate. Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice from your BCO. Christian. Where is the strutting requirement? I've looked in document A and couldn't see anything in there about it. Is it all up to BCO's discretion or are there actual guidance documents out there somewhere? |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
wrote in message ups.com... Christian McArdle wrote: Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think? You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance intermediate. Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice from your BCO. Christian. Where is the strutting requirement? I've looked in document A and couldn't see anything in there about it. Is it all up to BCO's discretion or are there actual guidance documents out there somewhere? http://www.luton.gov.uk/Media%20Libr...r%20floors.pdf Bottom of page #4 For domesic floors 4.5m span, 2 struts at 1/3 spacing... |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
The 6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom
mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood. Ahh... okay, that makes sense It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment. But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the 400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like shoddyness... |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so
if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the 400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like shoddyness... Obviously you should try your best to be accurate. However, 2mm won't make the slightest difference with herringbone. With a nogging, 2mm inaccuracy is as wide as an ocean. Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Christian McArdle wrote: I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and support overlapping boards. They are used in walls to support radiators/shelves etc and if filling the full width of the stud have the same effect as herringboned strut or strapping. Since the studwork in walls is generally the same material as the noggings, they also stop the studs moving sideways. I can't for the life of me understand how steel studding manages to stay up without it's equivalent. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
wrote:
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact fit is no hassle. You can cut diagonal timber herringbone easily with a mitre saw.. probably cheaper since it only needs to be quite skinny. The slight advantage of the galvanised stuff is it takes less height and hence can be simpler to get pipes past. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Chris Styles wrote: "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... Chris Styles wrote: I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage. These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring These really do stiffen up a floor/ceiling..better than noggins IMHO. cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more the better. The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work. I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw? Have I totally missed how these are fitted? Cheers, Chris from top of one joist to bottom of next, likewise bootom of same joist to top, makes an X between joists, makes em stiff as F*&K |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Chris Styles wrote:
The 6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood. Ahh... okay, that makes sense It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment. But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the 400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like shoddyness... Houses are full of covered up shoddiness. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
|
herringbone straps instead of noggins
The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and support overlapping boards. Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only the actually stressed bits remaining. Obviously, supporting boards is another matter! Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Christian McArdle wrote:
The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and support overlapping boards. Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only the actually stressed bits remaining. Not quite, as others have pointed out, joist shrinkage or strut shrinkage is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin - assuming the things are screwed down tightly. Obviously, supporting boards is another matter! Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Not quite, as others have pointed out, joist shrinkage or strut shrinkage
is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin - assuming the things are screwed down tightly. Please sir! I mentioned it first! Christian. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer -- for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...ns-296762-.htm |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On Friday, 14 October 2016 03:14:04 UTC+1, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote: Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer you need a sane portal to this newsgroup. The one you're using isn't. NT |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Dave W wrote:
"pamela" wrote in message ... On 10:10 14 Oct 2016, wrote: On Friday, 14 October 2016 03:14:04 UTC+1, Vince wrote: replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote: Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer you need a sane portal to this newsgroup. The one you're using isn't. NT I see your reply appeared on the web page but I wonder how long will it will stay there. Do their mods censor replies they don't like? http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...s-instead-of-n oggins-296762-.htm I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see that he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or "newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil organisation that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It looks like their mods didn't understand "portal" either. They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal" something that was freely given and in the public domain. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
"Tim+" wrote in message ... Dave W wrote: I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see that he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or "newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil organisation that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It looks like their mods didn't understand "portal" either. They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal" something that was freely given and in the public domain. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls Maybe "steal" is the wrong word. Certainly they don't declare their source, and pass it off as their own. -- Dave W |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On Tuesday, 24 October 2006 11:36:04 UTC+1, Chris Styles wrote:
I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage. These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding timber noggins. Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span? One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ? Any sugegstions welcome. Cheers Chris http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...chText=herring You can buy ready made metal ones. |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On 14/10/2016 03:14, Vince wrote:
replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote: Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer Silentfloor joists even better |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
In message , rick
writes On 14/10/2016 03:14, Vince wrote: replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote: Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction. Christian. I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer Silentfloor joists even better Ah. Noisy modern floors. I don't recall tongue and groove flooring being noisy until they introduced chipboard. Is there a way round this? Glue? Screws? Talcum powder? -- Tim Lamb |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On 14/10/2016 15:30, Tim+ wrote:
They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal" something that was freely given and in the public domain. They don't resurrect ancient messages. They post them up in much the same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top. It's their users who can't understand dates. Andy |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 14/10/2016 15:30, Tim+ wrote: They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal" something that was freely given and in the public domain. They don't resurrect ancient messages. Wrong. They do. Just have a look at the website and you'll see ancient posts being promoted as top posts or unanswered question with no reference to the age of the messages they're promoting. They post them up in much the same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top. Only when you look past the front few pages. They most definitely DO promote old messages to generate traffic. It's their users who can't understand dates. Do you really think that all the numpties responding to ancient threads are doing so because they don't know how to read dates? No, it's because HOH is deliberately making it hard to see the dates and/or promoting old threads. Sure, there will be a few numpties but it's clear that the majority or responders have no idea that they're responding to old messages. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On 16/10/2016 21:51, Vir Campestris wrote:
They don't resurrect ancient messages. They post them up in much the same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top. Go in via their home page and you will see a scrolling list of questions with no indication of the date they were posted. Its only later that users of that site are given any indication that the question may have been posted 10 or 15 years earlier. The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday. There is also another list of topics titled ' do have answers to these questions' with no dates at all given -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
herringbone straps instead of noggins
On 16/10/2016 22:11, Tim+ wrote:
Wrong. They do. Just have a look at the website and you'll see ancient posts being promoted as top posts On 16/10/2016 22:28, alan_m wrote: The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday. I stand (sit?) corrected. Andy |
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