I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

someone on BBC business lunch today asked, what happens if your printer
screws up and tears up the envelope. They say there's a fix for this.

john2

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm


Well, it is and it isn't - we, and quite a few others, have been doing
online barcode generation for discount vouchers, gift vouchers etc. for
a good few years now. Several of the parcel service companies have also
been using it.

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


--
Grunff

john2 wrote:

someone on BBC business lunch today asked, what happens if your printer
screws up and tears up the envelope. They say there's a fix for this.


You put a new envelope in and print it again?


--
Grunff

In message , at 14:01:34 on
Tue, 19 Sep 2006, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

Isn't this the same system that man businesses already use?

I don't quite follow to reference to eBay, as many eBay items won't fit
in a postbox, and some sort of proof of posting is often useful. And
especially with the new rules (and dodgy kitchen scales) I'd normally
want to visit the Post Office anyway to get an item priced.

In the USA they have a better system: a set of scales in an open area at
the Post Office so you don't have to join the main queue, and a vending
machine with many different denominations of stamp in it. Of course, you
then need a "fast drop" scheme if the resulting item doesn't fit a
Postbox.
--
Roland Perry

I don't quite follow to reference to eBay, as many eBay items won't fit in
a postbox, and some sort of proof of posting is often useful. And
especially with the new rules (and dodgy kitchen scales) I'd normally want
to visit the Post Office anyway to get an item priced.

However, if you had an eBay business selling large numbers of small items,
it could be very useful.

Christian.

Grunff wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm


Well, it is and it isn't - we, and quite a few others, have been doing
online barcode generation for discount vouchers, gift vouchers etc. for
a good few years now. Several of the parcel service companies have also
been using it.

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


And even that's not new. They've been doing "Smart Stamps" for a while.

MBQ

Roland Perry wrote:
In the USA they have a better system: a set of scales in an open area at
the Post Office

They do in all the POs I've been into in the UK, on the public side of
the counter. I've never had a problem going up and weighing things and
then joining the back of the queue if I determine I haven't got the
correct stamps.

MBQ

wrote:

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


And even that's not new. They've been doing "Smart Stamps" for a while.

MBQ


I looked into it but it was a subcription service. I haven't looked
yet but the news makes it sound like the service itself is free.

The message
from Grunff contains these words:

someone on BBC business lunch today asked, what happens if your printer
screws up and tears up the envelope. They say there's a fix for this.


You put a new envelope in and print it again?

Seems reasonable. After all, the whole point of using unique barcodes is
so you can't reproduce them fraudulently. Printing it again should be
easy.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:

Seems reasonable. After all, the whole point of using unique barcodes is
so you can't reproduce them fraudulently. Printing it again should be
easy.

With it being browser based, you can print it as many times as you like.
The anti-fraud system will have to kick in when two identically-coded
packages are scanned through the system.


--
Grunff

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

Except noone can post things to me because it doesn't recognise our new
(CB25) postcode. Grr!

Tony

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:24:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:01:34 on
Tue, 19 Sep 2006, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

Isn't this the same system that man businesses already use?

Presumably the RM save a bundle on printing and distribution costs, whilst
collectively the consumers pay for the ink / printer wear. BBC website
doesn't say that the stamps are any cheaper to account for this - anyone
know?

especially with the new rules (and dodgy kitchen scales) I'd normally
want to visit the Post Office anyway to get an item priced.

I went into the PO recently for that very reason and the person behind the
counter drooled for a bit whilst they figured out why someone would want
to weigh but not send an item...

Have since found some proper letter-pricing scales that were being thrown
out (presumably because the recent changes in the pricing system made them
useless) so the dodgy kitchen scales can go back in the cupboard.

In message , at 14:39:00 on
Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Christian McArdle
remarked:
I don't quite follow to reference to eBay, as many eBay items won't fit in
a postbox, and some sort of proof of posting is often useful. And
especially with the new rules (and dodgy kitchen scales) I'd normally want
to visit the Post Office anyway to get an item priced.

However, if you had an eBay business selling large numbers of small items,
it could be very useful.

How difficult is it to buy a book of 100 First Class Stamps (if what you
are selling is small items)? Much easier (and cheaper) than printing
lots of these new thingys onto [presumably] label paper then peeling
them off and putting them on the item.
--
Roland Perry

In message .com, at
06:42:19 on Tue, 19 Sep 2006, remarked:
In the USA they have a better system: a set of scales in an open area at
the Post Office

They do in all the POs I've been into in the UK, on the public side of
the counter. I've never had a problem going up and weighing things and
then joining the back of the queue if I determine I haven't got the
correct stamps.

I've never seen one. There are scales at my local sub-post-office, but
they are operated from the "inside", and I'm not even sure that the
punter gets to see the weight. You'd also have to shove past the queue
to get anywhere near them.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:39:30 +0000, Jules put finger to keyboard and
typed:

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:24:27 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:01:34 on
Tue, 19 Sep 2006, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm

Isn't this the same system that man businesses already use?

Presumably the RM save a bundle on printing and distribution costs, whilst
collectively the consumers pay for the ink / printer wear. BBC website
doesn't say that the stamps are any cheaper to account for this - anyone
know?

They're the same price as ordinary stamps.

The process of buying them looks a bit convoluted - you need to enter
the recipient address when purchasing, which then forms part of the
label that you print. There's no explanation on the site as to why
this is necessary, or what happens if you cut that bit off and use the
printed stamp part on an envelope which already has a (different)
address label. This also means that you can only print off one at a
time, which is likely to be a pain if you've got more than one item to
send.

Also, they have to be used before the end of the day after they're
printed (eg, any printed today have to be posted by the end of
tommorrow), so you can't store them up for later use. I can understand
why this is the case (it stops people hoarding postage just before a
price increase, and presumably they also have the posting date encoded
into them so that the PO can know how long the package has been
sitting in their system without needing to frank them first), but it
adds to the general hassle.

I can see this system being handy for the occasional unusual item, or
for people who regularly send small packages by post and have the
facility to weigh them accurately at home (such as regular eBay
sellers), but I can't see any benefits over simply buying a book of
stamps for ordinary letters.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

Brian Morrison wrote:

I suspect that it will involve some sort of Java applet that will only
print what it is allowed to, the browser's direct printing ability will
have to be suspended for this to work.

No, just tried it - it generates a pdf which you can print as many times
as you like.


--
Grunff

Brian Morrison wrote:

[Post Office online postage purchase]

I suspect that it will involve some sort of Java applet that will only
print what it is allowed to, the browser's direct printing ability will
have to be suspended for this to work.

It generates a PDF for you to print.
--
Selah

On 19 Sep 2006 06:39:11 -0700, put finger to
keyboard and typed:


Grunff wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm


Well, it is and it isn't - we, and quite a few others, have been doing
online barcode generation for discount vouchers, gift vouchers etc. for
a good few years now. Several of the parcel service companies have also
been using it.

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


And even that's not new. They've been doing "Smart Stamps" for a while.

SmartStamps is an offline, software-based service that's essentially a
franking machine without the machine, if you get my drift - it does
what franking machines do (as well as having a few other nifty
functions such as adddress label printing and mail merge), but allows
you to use a computer and your own printer instead of needing separate
hardware. This new service is online and web-based, so you don't need
any additional software in order to use it.

It's effectively SmartStamps Lite - it's the single envelope option
from SmartStamps running standalone in a hosted environment.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:08:21 +0100, Grunff put finger to keyboard and
typed:

Brian Morrison wrote:

I suspect that it will involve some sort of Java applet that will only
print what it is allowed to, the browser's direct printing ability will
have to be suspended for this to work.

No, just tried it - it generates a pdf which you can print as many times
as you like.

Does it have any kind of "memory"? That is, can you log in again
tomorrow and ask it to print another label to the same address as last
time?

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

In message e.net, at
16:06:30 on Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Mark Goodge
remarked:
you need to enter the recipient address when purchasing, which then
forms part of the label that you print. There's no explanation on the
site as to why this is necessary,

Does the barcode include the destination address, for use in automatic
sorting machinery?
--
Roland Perry

Mark Goodge wrote:

Does it have any kind of "memory"? That is, can you log in again
tomorrow and ask it to print another label to the same address as last
time?

I've just logged back in, and no, it doesn't keep a record of previous
send addresses.


--
Grunff

Brian Morrison wrote:

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?

I doubt it - I suspect the second (and subsequent) letters bearing the
same stamp will simply count as unstamped, and the recipient will be
asked to pay.



--
Grunff

Brian Morrison wrote on 19/09/2006 16:27
Grunff wrote:
Brian Morrison wrote:

I suspect that it will involve some sort of Java applet that will only
print what it is allowed to, the browser's direct printing ability will
have to be suspended for this to work.
No, just tried it - it generates a pdf which you can print as many times
as you like.


Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?


A bloke on "Today" implied that they'd consider the postage to have been
not paid on packages whose stamp barcode has previously been scanned.

S.

"Brian Morrison" wrote in message
...
Simon Morris wrote:

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?


A bloke on "Today" implied that they'd consider the postage to have been
not paid on packages whose stamp barcode has previously been scanned.

So they've designed a broken system and then dropped the broken pieces
on the general public. I can't see how this is any better than a book of
stamps.

Not smart

Eh? It's the only way this sort of thing can sensibly be done. Or do you
have a better idea?

clive

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:34:48 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?

I doubt it - I suspect the second (and subsequent) letters bearing the
same stamp will simply count as unstamped, and the recipient will be
asked to pay.

I tried it as a test earlier. I've been charged for 4 X 32p stamps when I
only wanted 1. I only printed once although I looked at the pdf a few times
before printing - guess this is the reason.

I've requested a refund but it had to be for the full amount (£1.28)
although I did want the 1 stamp - guess I'd better not post it now :-)
Also I had to select one of their reasons why I wanted a refund, none of
which was my reason :-(
--
Regards,

Hugh Jampton

So they've designed a broken system and then dropped the broken pieces
on the general public. I can't see how this is any better than a book of
stamps.

Very simple. I can never find a book of stamps. I can pretty much always
find a computer and printer. No need to go shopping or rummaging through old
drawers in a desperate attempt to find some.

Christian.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:19:26 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to
keyboard and typed:

In message e.net, at
16:06:30 on Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Mark Goodge
remarked:
you need to enter the recipient address when purchasing, which then
forms part of the label that you print. There's no explanation on the
site as to why this is necessary,

Does the barcode include the destination address, for use in automatic
sorting machinery?

I don't know - that's the question I was hoping that the FAQ section
would answer, but it doesn't!

You can use the offline "SmartStamp" system to print stamps without
addresses, and this looks as if it's just a cut-down version of
SmartStamps, so I'd be surprised if it is encoded into it. I suspect
that it's more to do with ensuring that you pay the correct amount of
postage.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

How difficult is it to buy a book of 100 First Class Stamps (if what you
are selling is small items)?

It means a trip to a post office whilst same is open. This is not something
I normally do. So it's quite a big deal actually.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Brian Morrison writes:
Grunff wrote:
Brian Morrison wrote:

I suspect that it will involve some sort of Java applet that will
only print what it is allowed to, the browser's direct printing
ability will have to be suspended for this to work.

What on earth would be the point?

No, just tried it - it generates a pdf which you can print as many
times as you like.

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times
they will charge your account or credit card?

I would hope not! Otherwise you end up subsidizing anyone smart
enough to duplicate your stamp.

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Grunff wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm


Well, it is and it isn't - we, and quite a few others, have been doing
online barcode generation for discount vouchers, gift vouchers etc. for
a good few years now. Several of the parcel service companies have also
been using it.

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


h - definitely i didn't mean the technology was cunning, just that they
can now sell stamps for **** all overhead..

Brian Morrison wrote:

To endure that printing the stamp is done from within the Java sandbox
so that only one print attempt per bar-code can be made.

Well, yes, but if they display it full size, you can always screen-grab it.

While Java is beautiful, I have never liked Java applets. There is
*always* a better, neater way of achieving the task. It seems many
developers agree with me, since the use of Java applets is dropping like
a stone.



Exactly why I would have thought it's important not to allow multiple
printing if it worked this way.

But it wouldn't be fraud-proof, you'd still need duplicate checking at
the scanning end. If you didn't have that, I could simply scan the
printout and make as many copies as I want. Checking at the point of
printing is totally pointless.


--
Grunff

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:37:23 UTC, Brian Morrison
wrote:

What on earth would be the point?

To endure that printing the stamp is done from within the Java sandbox
so that only one print attempt per bar-code can be made.

An over-complex and ultimately useless solution! One can always hold the
print job at the spooler, and ask it to print multiple times...so that
would not be secure at all.

That's why it has to be done with unique barcodes.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

Brian Morrison wrote:
Clive George wrote:
"Brian Morrison" wrote in message
...
Simon Morris wrote:

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?

A bloke on "Today" implied that they'd consider the postage to have been
not paid on packages whose stamp barcode has previously been scanned.
So they've designed a broken system and then dropped the broken pieces
on the general public. I can't see how this is any better than a book of
stamps.

Not smart
Eh? It's the only way this sort of thing can sensibly be done. Or do you
have a better idea?

Yes, I can. Ensure that the same bar code cannot be printed more than
once by doing the printing from inside a custom application in Java or
possibly something that is downloaded and installed?

And this will stop them from using a driver that prints to a file that
can be repeatedly printed? Or photocopied?

"Brian Morrison" wrote in message
...

A bloke on "Today" implied that they'd consider the postage to have
been
not paid on packages whose stamp barcode has previously been scanned.

So they've designed a broken system and then dropped the broken pieces
on the general public. I can't see how this is any better than a book of
stamps.

Not smart

Eh? It's the only way this sort of thing can sensibly be done. Or do you
have a better idea?

Yes, I can. Ensure that the same bar code cannot be printed more than
once by doing the printing from inside a custom application in Java or
possibly something that is downloaded and installed?

It's rather easy to capture what's sent to the printer and use that to
repeatedly print other copies. (eg by using a 'print to file' option - like
for postscript). Ie it isn't even slightly secure enough.

Hence the scanning at the RM end is the only sensible way this can be done.

clive

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:38:38 +0100, Brian Morrison put finger to
keyboard and typed:

Clive George wrote:
"Brian Morrison" wrote in message
...
Simon Morris wrote:

Strange, so does this mean that if you use a stamp multiple times they
will charge your account or credit card?


A bloke on "Today" implied that they'd consider the postage to have been
not paid on packages whose stamp barcode has previously been scanned.

So they've designed a broken system and then dropped the broken pieces
on the general public. I can't see how this is any better than a book of
stamps.

Not smart

Eh? It's the only way this sort of thing can sensibly be done. Or do you
have a better idea?

Yes, I can. Ensure that the same bar code cannot be printed more than
once by doing the printing from inside a custom application in Java or
possibly something that is downloaded and installed?

How do you stop someone photocopying it once it's been printed? And
what do you do if the printer jams halfway through?

The "one-scan" barcode method has been working perfectly well with the
existing SmartStamp system, so there's no reason why it shouldn't work
here. And franking systems create "stamps" that are copyable quite
easily, and thus have to be validated in other ways. There are
problems with this system, but they're more about usability as regards
buying the online stamps than with concerns about multiple use.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:41:41 +0100, Grunff put finger to keyboard and
typed:

Brian Morrison wrote:

To endure that printing the stamp is done from within the Java sandbox
so that only one print attempt per bar-code can be made.

Well, yes, but if they display it full size, you can always screen-grab it.

You could also print to a virtual printer (or Postscript/PDF creator)
and then reprint the captured file later.

It's impossible to make it impossible to print something more than
once. You can make it difficult, but if you rely on it being difficult
as a method of validation then all you do is encourage people to
explore ways of defeating it.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:32:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher put finger
to keyboard and typed:

Grunff wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think this is rather cunning...actually.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5358436.stm


Well, it is and it isn't - we, and quite a few others, have been doing
online barcode generation for discount vouchers, gift vouchers etc. for
a good few years now. Several of the parcel service companies have also
been using it.

So the technology is not at all new, the only new thing is applying it
to Royal Mail post.


h - definitely i didn't mean the technology was cunning, just that they
can now sell stamps for **** all overhead..

Not entirely zero overhead, since it's increasing the number of items
in the system that need to have the barcode scanned and logged rather
than simply franking the stamp by a mechanical process. So there is a
significant IT overhead involved, although it's minimised by the fact
that this is an extension of the existing SmartStamp product rather
than an entirely new system.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:51:52 +0100, Brian Morrison put finger to
keyboard and typed:

Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:37:23 UTC, Brian Morrison
wrote:

What on earth would be the point?
To endure that printing the stamp is done from within the Java sandbox
so that only one print attempt per bar-code can be made.

An over-complex and ultimately useless solution! One can always hold the
print job at the spooler, and ask it to print multiple times...so that
would not be secure at all.

That's why it has to be done with unique barcodes.

Except that they're not unique if they can be printed multiple times.

The barcode is unique to the purchase. Once scanned on its way through
the postal system, it will generate an error if scanned in again and
hence prevent re-use of the same code.

Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:54:34 UTC, "Clive George"
wrote:

It's rather easy to capture what's sent to the printer and use that to
repeatedly print other copies. (eg by using a 'print to file' option - like
for postscript). Ie it isn't even slightly secure enough.

I would just 'hold' the entire printer queue, then make multiple copies
of the item in the queue. Very few mouse clicks!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk