I've noticed that more and more Li-ion tools are being made available,
but given the careful charging and handling requirements of the
batteries are these going to be dangerous for site or DIY use?

There are many examples of Li-ion batteries exploding and injuring
users. And it is recommended that these batteries are not left
unattended when charging.

As these batteries are more likely to be knocked and sustain unnoticed
damage, I wondered if they can be trusted?

dg

dg wrote:
I've noticed that more and more Li-ion tools are being made available,
but given the careful charging and handling requirements of the
batteries are these going to be dangerous for site or DIY use?

There are many examples of Li-ion batteries exploding and injuring
users. And it is recommended that these batteries are not left
unattended when charging.

As these batteries are more likely to be knocked and sustain unnoticed
damage, I wondered if they can be trusted?


There is nothing inherently more dangerous about Li-ion or Li-poly than
NiCd and NiMH.

Many of the problems that have hit the news have been due to
manufacturing faults. Because the cells in these batteries are different
from the standard cylindrical configuration, manufacturers have had to
re-tool in order to manufacture them. This is the first major re-tool in
a very long time, and it's just taken a bit of time to iron out some
difficulties.

The advantages of Li-ion are huge - much higher power density, no heavy
metal content, great charge-discharge characteristics, the list goes on.

For a glimpse of what can be done with Li-ion, take a look at this:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html


--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

"It is truly an outstanding example of British innovation at it's
best!"

Pity we never invented the metric system isn't it. Pity someone never
told their advertisers. I would never consider looking seriously at an
ad that gave the specs in French. Nothing against the French of course.

But if the morons overlooked the fact that we drive miles in this
country and still consume fuel by the gallon despite what the arses in
government want us to do, I might be looking at a car designed to
travel on the wrong side of the street for my tastes.

dg wrote:

I've noticed that more and more Li-ion tools are being made available,
but given the careful charging and handling requirements of the
batteries are these going to be dangerous for site or DIY use?

No. The problem is specific to laptop batteries, where extra thin
separators are used to squeeze more capacity into a small space.


NT

But if the morons overlooked the fact that we drive miles in this
country and still consume fuel by the gallon

It does give the fuel consumption as 80 mpg. And where do you buy
fuel by the gallon these days. I measure my fuel consumption in
miles/litre.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
dg wrote:
I've noticed that more and more Li-ion tools are being made available,
but given the careful charging and handling requirements of the
batteries are these going to be dangerous for site or DIY use?

There are many examples of Li-ion batteries exploding and injuring
users. And it is recommended that these batteries are not left
unattended when charging.

As these batteries are more likely to be knocked and sustain unnoticed
damage, I wondered if they can be trusted?


There is nothing inherently more dangerous about Li-ion or Li-poly than
NiCd and NiMH.

Many of the problems that have hit the news have been due to manufacturing
faults. Because the cells in these batteries are different from the
standard cylindrical configuration, manufacturers have had to re-tool in
order to manufacture them. This is the first major re-tool in a very long
time, and it's just taken a bit of time to iron out some difficulties.

The advantages of Li-ion are huge - much higher power density, no heavy
metal content, great charge-discharge characteristics, the list goes on.

For a glimpse of what can be done with Li-ion, take a look at this:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html


--
Grunff

Very impressive, would love to see it go

My only worry is there are NO mechanical brake. Fully reliant on
software/hardware for the regen braking!!!!

On 2006-09-03 16:35:48 +0100, "Tim Morley" tim.morley*REMOVE
said:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...


There is nothing inherently more dangerous about Li-ion or Li-poly than
NiCd and NiMH.

Many of the problems that have hit the news have been due to
manufacturing faults. Because the cells in these batteries are
different from the standard cylindrical configuration, manufacturers
have had to re-tool in order to manufacture them. This is the first
major re-tool in a very long time, and it's just taken a bit of time to
iron out some difficulties.

The advantages of Li-ion are huge - much higher power density, no heavy
metal content, great charge-discharge characteristics, the list goes on.

For a glimpse of what can be done with Li-ion, take a look at this:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html


--
Grunff

Very impressive, would love to see it go

My only worry is there are NO mechanical brake. Fully reliant on
software/hardware for the regen braking!!!!

Don't worry about that..... Grunff wrote the software. He's very good :-)

The message .com
from contains these words:

No. The problem is specific to laptop batteries, where extra thin
separators are used to squeeze more capacity into a small space.

Not just laptops. Model aeroplanes have had a few go pop, too.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Guy King wrote:
The message .com
from contains these words:

No. The problem is specific to laptop batteries, where extra thin
separators are used to squeeze more capacity into a small space.

Not just laptops. Model aeroplanes have had a few go pop, too.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

And the ones for cameras, phones and small torches too (Cr123). I
understood it was the technology not the actual design which is
sensitive.

I've even read of problems with non rechargeable Li-ions

dg

In message . com,
Weatherlawyer writes

Grunff wrote:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

"It is truly an outstanding example of British innovation at it's
best!"

Pity we never invented the metric system isn't it. Pity someone never
told their advertisers. I would never consider looking seriously at an
ad that gave the specs in French. Nothing against the French of course.

But if the morons overlooked the fact that we drive miles in this
country and still consume fuel by the gallon despite what the arses in
government want us to do, I might be looking at a car designed to
travel on the wrong side of the street for my tastes.

WTF are you whittering on about this time ?

--
geoff

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:52:42 +0100, Grunff wrote:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

"No mechanical brakes" it sez.
I note the blocks under the tyres in the top picture :-)

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 18:39:14 GMT, raden wrote:

In message . com,
Weatherlawyer writes

Grunff wrote:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

"It is truly an outstanding example of British innovation at it's
best!"

Pity we never invented the metric system isn't it. Pity someone never
told their advertisers. I would never consider looking seriously at an
ad that gave the specs in French. Nothing against the French of course.

But if the morons overlooked the fact that we drive miles in this
country and still consume fuel by the gallon despite what the arses in
government want us to do, I might be looking at a car designed to
travel on the wrong side of the street for my tastes.

WTF are you whittering on about this time ?

Its a Sunday, he starts early.

On 3 Sep 2006 11:38:06 -0700, "dg" wrote:


Guy King wrote:
The message .com
from contains these words:

No. The problem is specific to laptop batteries, where extra thin
separators are used to squeeze more capacity into a small space.

Not just laptops. Model aeroplanes have had a few go pop, too.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

And the ones for cameras, phones and small torches too (Cr123). I
understood it was the technology not the actual design which is
sensitive.


And I've had difficulty getting such posted from the US .. (laptop
battery).

And for the car .. 80 mpg indeed .. ;-)

Oh and .. "Emissions - Zero for 4 hours" .. so charged by
hydroelectric then?

Steps back and waits for Dr Drivel .. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

in 565679 20060903 193914 raden wrote:
In message . com,
Weatherlawyer writes

Grunff wrote:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

"It is truly an outstanding example of British innovation at it's
best!"

Pity we never invented the metric system isn't it. Pity someone never
told their advertisers. I would never consider looking seriously at an
ad that gave the specs in French. Nothing against the French of course.

But if the morons overlooked the fact that we drive miles in this
country and still consume fuel by the gallon despite what the arses in
government want us to do, I might be looking at a car designed to
travel on the wrong side of the street for my tastes.

WTF are you whittering on about this time ?

It's still 1906 for a lot of people in this country. Don't disturb them.

T i m wrote:

And for the car .. 80 mpg indeed .. ;-)

Oh and .. "Emissions - Zero for 4 hours" .. so charged by
hydroelectric then?


Who cares - have you seen how fast it is??


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

And for the car .. 80 mpg indeed .. ;-)

Oh and .. "Emissions - Zero for 4 hours" .. so charged by
hydroelectric then?

Who cares - have you seen how fast it is??

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

As long as you only live a mile or so away, of course

Cheers,

John (sensing another classic Dr Drivel exchange in the offing)

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

And for the car .. 80 mpg indeed .. ;-)

Oh and .. "Emissions - Zero for 4 hours" .. so charged by
hydroelectric then?

Who cares - have you seen how fast it is??

160hp per wheel and a motor on each wheel. That is over 600hp. The car is
overpowered. They may be wanting to claw back more brake regen by using a
motor on each wheel. The management system should bring in and out front
and rear drive wheels automatically.

A simple overview:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 14:24:21 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
. ..
T i m wrote:

And for the car .. 80 mpg indeed .. ;-)

Oh and .. "Emissions - Zero for 4 hours" .. so charged by
hydroelectric then?

Who cares - have you seen how fast it is??

160hp per wheel and a motor on each wheel. That is over 600hp.

So it would need to be towed by an F1 car then (most trucks only being
~450hp).

And they are environmentally friendly aren't they? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.
--

Dave

In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

One of the correspondents who contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,
and borrowed the same car but the hybrid version. Got 28 mpg with it
during his usual commute across London. Exactly the same as his own car.
It's about time they sorted those false MPG claims - and also the false
low CO2 output company car tax is based on...

--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

******** - missed that the first time around

saved for posterity ...


--
geoff

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

It does?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

One of the correspondents who
contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,

Oh no the naive intervene again. Will you please eff off as you are an
idiot.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Grimly Curmudgeon
writes
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

******** - missed that the first time around

saved for posterity ...

Maxie, what are you saving for your posterior?

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
One of the correspondents who
contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,

Oh no the naive intervene again.

The naive are those who blindly believe adverts. Remind you of anyone?

Will you please eff off as you are an
idiot.

Think I'll start taking record of these comments and pass them on to your
ISP. BTW, I'm still waiting for the police to arrive.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow
for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

One of the correspondents who
contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,

Oh no the naive intervene again. Will you please eff off as you are an
idiot.

"If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home"

ha ha - you dIMM plonker


--
geoff

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow
for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

******** - missed that the first time around

saved for posterity ...

Maxie, what are you saving for your posterior?

"If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2 mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you
get home."

you dIMM plonker

--
geoff

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:41:40 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:41:40 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

I'm sorry to say I've been really, really bored today and I've actually
spent time thinking about this. :-)

Although I don't doubt that towing a standard electric car half a mile
will enable it, at best, to then go about half a mile under it's own
power, it *is* actually possible, in theory, to impart enough energy to
an electric vehicle in that distance to enable it to travel many miles.

To achieve this you either have to tow the car using a vehicle with a
far more powerful engine or tow the car using a vehicle with a
comparable engine but slowly. You also need a dynamo in the electric
car that creates many times the resistance suffered by the car when it
is running normally (caused by wind resistance, friction etc.) and
tyres that enable the dynamo to turn without the car losing traction on
the road.

Cheers,

John

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:13:27 UTC, "John Anderton"
wrote:

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

I'm sorry to say I've been really, really bored today and I've actually
spent time thinking about this. :-)

Although I don't doubt that towing a standard electric car half a mile
will enable it, at best, to then go about half a mile under it's own
power, it *is* actually possible, in theory, to impart enough energy to
an electric vehicle in that distance to enable it to travel many miles.

I'm sure that's true, but pretty unlikely in that case. I think the
driver of the towing vehicle might require a contribution for fuel...

(yes, I did actually think of that before posting; rather akin to those
'pull back a little and let go' toy cars)
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
One of the correspondents who
contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,

Oh no the naive intervene again.

The naive are those who blindly believe adverts. Remind you of anyone?

Will you please eff off as you are an
idiot.

Think

Don't think. Please no, just eff off as you are an idiot

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you
get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

One of the correspondents who
contributes to Autocar runs a Lexus GS300,

Oh no the naive intervene again. Will you please eff off as you are an
idiot.

"If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, then you get
home"

ha ha - you dIMM plonker

Maxie, Dim Lin, the Oriental; enchantress tress, is a plonker?

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

FFS.

I suppose it fills up the petrol tank too.

******** - missed that the first time around

saved for posterity ...

Maxie, what are you saving for your posterior?

"If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2 mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you
get home."

you dIMM plonker

Maxie, you must not keep repeating this about Dim Lin, the Oriental
enchantress.

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:41:40 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"

saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for
1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

If you say so.

"John Anderton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:41:40 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"

saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow
for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you
get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

I'm sorry to say I've been really, really bored today and I've actually
spent time thinking about this. :-)

Although I don't doubt that towing a standard electric car half a mile
will enable it, at best, to then go about half a mile under it's own
power, it *is* actually possible, in theory, to impart enough energy to
an electric vehicle in that distance to enable it to travel many miles.

Yep. They also use large capacitors to store energy.

To achieve this you either have to tow the car using a vehicle with a
far more powerful engine or tow the car using a vehicle with a
comparable engine but slowly. You also need a dynamo in the electric
car that creates many times the resistance suffered by the car when it
is running normally (caused by wind resistance, friction etc.) and
tyres that enable the dynamo to turn without the car losing traction on
the road.

Cheers,

John

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:13:27 UTC, "John Anderton"
wrote:

At 100% energy efficiency, enough to get you half a mile? So, you're
saying you only need to be towed *half* the way home...

I'm sorry to say I've been really, really bored today and I've actually
spent time thinking about this. :-)

Although I don't doubt that towing a standard electric car half a mile
will enable it, at best, to then go about half a mile under it's own
power, it *is* actually possible, in theory, to impart enough energy to
an electric vehicle in that distance to enable it to travel many miles.

I'm sure that's true, but pretty unlikely in that case.

You made that up.

"dg" writes:

As these batteries are more likely to be knocked and sustain unnoticed
damage, I wondered if they can be trusted?

I think there's definitely something there yes.

They are more difficult to make than what went before, nothing like as
robust, poor at high rate discharge (where lead acid and NiCd excel)
and prone to manufacturers pushing limits to make unrealistic
capacities.

Jon

That is yes I think they are a little untrustworthy.

Jon

I wrote:

"dg" writes:

As these batteries are more likely to be knocked and sustain unnoticed
damage, I wondered if they can be trusted?

I think there's definitely something there yes.

They are more difficult to make than what went before, nothing like as
robust, poor at high rate discharge (where lead acid and NiCd excel)
and prone to manufacturers pushing limits to make unrealistic
capacities.

Jon

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

If you flatten the battery and have no fuel, all it needs is a tow for 1/2
mile or so and the wheels turning will charge the battery, they you get
home.

Really? Creates energy does it?

Yep.

Jesus H. Kreist.

Hear that hum? That's Einstein spinning in his grave, that is.

http://www.engineersedge.com/thermod.../first_law.htm
--

Dave