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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so
am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Douglas de Lacey |
#2
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:54:03 +0100 someone who may be Douglas de
Lacey wrote this:- I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Correct. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Throw it in the bin. Replace with another pump. I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#3
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:54:03 +0100 someone who may be Douglas de Lacey wrote this:- I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Correct. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Throw it in the bin. Replace with another pump. I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. -- Chris Green |
#4
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
wrote in message
... I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. clive |
#5
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
"Clive George" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. You would have to repace only the cable outside the water and weatherproof the splice in some way. Less effort to get a new pump TBH. |
#6
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 07 Aug 2006 15:46:21 GMT someone who may be
wrote this:- How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? That should be fairly obvious. If they are in contact with the water when the electricity finally escapes from the cable then they might be killed. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#7
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote:
I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Douglas de Lacey Replacement is the logical option. If for reasons unknown youre determined to use it for another 20 years, theres always... a) running it off isolation transformer and rcd b) coat the cable with a mixture of silicone gloop and plastic fibres c) or fit a new cable and epoxy waterproof the connection d) fit earthed gauze round the lead and add rcd e) dangle the pump just above the water so the inlet just touches the surface but the cable doesnt and various other equally unlikely options. NT |
#8
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote:
I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Douglas de Lacey Replacement is the logical option. If for reasons unknown youre determined to use it for another 20 years, theres always... a) running it off isolation transformer and rcd b) coat the cable with a mixture of silicone gloop and plastic fibres c) or fit a new cable and epoxy waterproof the connection d) fit earthed gauze round the lead and add rcd e) dangle the pump just above the water so the inlet just touches the surface but the cable doesnt f) fit deioniser to water feature and various other equally unlikely options. NT |
#9
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
steeler wrote:
"Clive George" wrote in message ... wrote in message .. . [And David Hansen was the first quoted author] I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. Nononono! It's for the sake of d-i-y! How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. [David again:] That should be fairly obvious. If they are in contact with the water when the electricity finally escapes from the cable then they might be killed. I admit I was puzzled too; you mean "when the bodge funally breaks down", right? I do have an RCD on the circuit; would that not immediately trip? In which case only the fish are likely to be in any danger. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. You would have to repace only the cable outside the water and weatherproof the splice in some way. Less effort to get a new pump TBH. No, Clive is right, the mains cable goes right into the pump, and has degraded along the whole of the underwater length. then added: Replacement is the logical option. If for reasons unknown youre determined to use it for another 20 years, theres always... Hey, it's barely ten years old so far:-) a) running it off isolation transformer and rcd b) coat the cable with a mixture of silicone gloop and plastic fibres c) or fit a new cable and epoxy waterproof the connection That's more-or-less what I thought of d) fit earthed gauze round the lead and add rcd e) dangle the pump just above the water so the inlet just touches the surface but the cable doesnt Ooh, yes that could be fun! and various other equally unlikely options. Yes, I get the impression that "unlikely" is the key term. Anyone want a *free* (but useless) pond pump? (But I would like to know whether the RCD might fail to function immediately the electrons begin to escape. What's the resistivity of pond-water?) Thanks, all, for your comments. Douglas de Lacey |
#10
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:10:45 +0100 someone who may be Douglas de
Lacey wrote this:- I admit I was puzzled too; you mean "when the bodge funally breaks down", When the existing cable breaks down. I do have an RCD on the circuit; would that not immediately trip? That depends on the fault. It should do, but like any mechanical device it may not operate properly. There are also electrical faults that such devices don't detect. As a result relying on one to save one's life is foolish. Far better to avoid the possibility, by getting a new pump with a new cable. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#11
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote: .. What's the resistivity of pond-water?) There's a fair number of 'impurities' abour so I imagine it is fairly low. My rather complex pond system has a number of points where there is seepage loss and I installed an automatic 'topper-up' - initially the sensor was two bits of stainless steel with dc passing through them - two reasons lead me to work out a very low voltge / high impedance ac system. One was the plating effect of what looked like lime on one electrode, the other was, that although I was only using a few volts, and possibly because it wasn't an isolated supply, it killed frogs !! Rob |
#12
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message ... I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. That still doesn't explain how I (or anyone else) gets killed by it, how does the 'electric water' get to you? -- Chris Green |
#13
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote: On 07 Aug 2006 15:46:21 GMT someone who may be wrote this:- How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? That should be fairly obvious. If they are in contact with the water when the electricity finally escapes from the cable then they might be killed. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 In which case surely the RCD would trip. Seeing the minute amounts of condensation that cause my RCD to trip I have absolute confidence that water ingress into a pump would give the RCD no problems with detection. Having said that I wish I could more than ten years out of a submersible pump. I have just had to chuck a 3000 gallon per hour pump away that tripped the RCD due to very slight water ingress through a worn cable. The pump ran quite happliy on an unprotected circuit. This was a £200 pump. It was repairable but coming close to £200 to repair it was it worth it. It was 10 years old so time for the dump. If the RCD were to go while on holiday the ruined contents of your freezer are more than the replacement cost of the pump. Kevin |
#14
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
wrote in message
... Clive George wrote: wrote in message ... I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. That still doesn't explain how I (or anyone else) gets killed by it, how does the 'electric water' get to you? One is standing in the garden and dangles ones fingers in the pretty waterfall. Or similar. (isn't that _really_ obvious?) clive |
#15
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message ... Clive George wrote: wrote in message ... I assume that the circuit is RCD protected. Do you really want to trust your life (and the lives of family and friends) to a piece of mechanical equipment that is not 100% reliable? All for the sake of a few pounds. How is anyone going to get killed (or even injured) by it? One's life doesn't depend on the operation of a pond pump usually. The pond pumps I've seen have mains cables going underwater. Seems like they rely very much on maintaining the insulation and seals. Replacing the cable will inevitably disturb these, and if you do get it wrong, then it's not the operation of the pump which you're worried about, it's the elecric water feature you now have. That still doesn't explain how I (or anyone else) gets killed by it, how does the 'electric water' get to you? One is standing in the garden and dangles ones fingers in the pretty waterfall. Or similar. .... and how do you thereby get a voltage between your fingers and the ground? It just doesn't add up, the water (which the pump is immersed in) is sitting in a hole in the ground, it would need a fair amount of current before that could be at any significant potential above that of the earth in general. -- Chris Green |
#17
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 08 Aug 2006 08:25:32 GMT someone who may be
wrote this:- How will a person touching any part of this offer a lower impedance to earth than the water itself? Or, on the other hand, how will any part that can be touched have a significant voltage on it? Feel free to experiment, at your own risk. You may only get a mild electric shock, I didn't say you would certainly die. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#18
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 8 Aug 2006 03:53:22 -0700 someone who may be "Kev"
wrote this:- In which case surely the RCD would trip. It should do and in nearly all cases will. However, the question is whether the small risk that it will not trip is worth it considering that the pump would cost little to replace. I can see why the manufacturers encapsulate the stator and the cable leading to it in resin. Less to manufacture and less to go wrong after it is sold, including less for people to fiddle with. Watertight connections that will last for decades under water are a difficult thing to make and usually involve encapsulation of the joint. Having said that I wish I could more than ten years out of a submersible pump. Is long life not one of the things surface pumps are for? If the RCD were to go while on holiday the ruined contents of your freezer are more than the replacement cost of the pump. Indeed, if the house electrical system is designed that way. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#19
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote:
steeler wrote: "Clive George" wrote in message ... wrote in message .. . I admit I was puzzled too; you mean "when the bodge funally breaks down", right? I do have an RCD on the circuit; would that not immediately trip? In which case only the fish are likely to be in any danger. It would in 99+% of cases trip, yes. Whether the fish would survive that depends. RCDs can occasionally fail though. and various other equally unlikely options. Yes, I get the impression that "unlikely" is the key term. Anyone want a *free* (but useless) pond pump? (But I would like to know whether the RCD might fail to function immediately the electrons begin to escape. What's the resistivity of pond-water?) Although most of those sound unlikely, a mix of silicone and plastic fibres would put a new sheath on the cable that would be as safe as the existing one, and its an easy job. Just ensure a decent seal to the pump body, ie thoroughly clean and abrade, and ensure a reasonable coating thickness all over. Cost £1.50, time taken 15 minutes. NT |
#21
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Kev wrote:
In which case surely the RCD would trip. Seeing the minute amounts of condensation that cause my RCD to trip I have absolute confidence that water ingress into a pump would give the RCD no problems with detection. no safety method is failure proof, hence we use several in combination to get excellent safety. Having said that I wish I could more than ten years out of a submersible pump. I have just had to chuck a 3000 gallon per hour pump away that tripped the RCD due to very slight water ingress through a worn cable. The pump ran quite happliy on an unprotected circuit. This was a £200 pump. It was repairable but coming close to £200 to repair it was it worth it. It was 10 years old so time for the dump. cables can be replaced and the pump resealed in minutes. Applying dc first would get rid of much of the ingress. NT |
#22
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote: Indeed, if the house electrical system is designed that way. Although my fridge and freezer is on an unprotected circuit I have a smaller freezer in the garage on a protected circuit so 2 years ago when I came back from holiday to find the RCD tripped I reset it forgetting about the freezer in the garage. Two weeks later I remembered the freezer in the garage. You can't imagine how much even frozen solid rotten fish stinks. Kevin |
#23
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
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#24
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote:
On 08 Aug 2006 08:25:32 GMT someone who may be wrote this:- How will a person touching any part of this offer a lower impedance to earth than the water itself? Or, on the other hand, how will any part that can be touched have a significant voltage on it? Feel free to experiment, at your own risk. Thanks very much:-) Seriously, I'd like to do a bit of a Gedankexperiment. As I said, the rubber outer has degraded badly and there are places where the inner cables are exposed. If either of positive or neutral sheath degrades, we are in danger of David's worst case scenario. Could this be ameliorated with a 4-core cable, with a second earth just left exposed at the pump inlet? (I don't know where the present earth goes, but the pump appears to be exclusively plastic and ceramic at the accessible level.) Or could I simply earth the pond? Douglas de Lacey |
#25
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:15:41 +0100, Douglas de Lacey
wrote: David Hansen wrote: On 08 Aug 2006 08:25:32 GMT someone who may be wrote this:- How will a person touching any part of this offer a lower impedance to earth than the water itself? Or, on the other hand, how will any part that can be touched have a significant voltage on it? Feel free to experiment, at your own risk. Thanks very much:-) Seriously, I'd like to do a bit of a Gedankexperiment. As I said, the rubber outer has degraded badly and there are places where the inner cables are exposed. If either of positive or neutral sheath degrades, we are in danger of David's worst case scenario. Could this be ameliorated with a 4-core cable, with a second earth just left exposed at the pump inlet? (I don't know where the present earth goes, but the pump appears to be exclusively plastic and ceramic at the accessible level.) Or could I simply earth the pond? Is this pump mains-driven, or 24V? -- Frank Erskine |
#26
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Frank Erskine wrote:
Seriously, I'd like to do a bit of a Gedankexperiment. As I said, the rubber outer has degraded badly and there are places where the inner cables are exposed. If either of positive or neutral sheath degrades, we are in danger of David's worst case scenario. Could this be ameliorated with a 4-core cable, with a second earth just left exposed at the pump inlet? (I don't know where the present earth goes, but the pump appears to be exclusively plastic and ceramic at the accessible level.) Or could I simply earth the pond? Is this pump mains-driven, or 24V? Mains driven, at mains voltage. Via RCD, of course. Douglas de Lacey |
#27
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
wrote:
wrote: It would in 99+% of cases trip, yes. Whether the fish would survive that depends. RCDs can occasionally fail though. The fish won't be hurt I wouldn't think, unless they actually had their noses on the leaking live part. I dont know what the voltage rating of your average fish is, the writing is hard to read. But I do know most animals are a lot more susceptible to electric shock than humans, so I wouldnt make assumptions. NT |
#28
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote:
Thanks very much:-) Seriously, I'd like to do a bit of a Gedankexperiment. As I said, the rubber outer has degraded badly and there are places where the inner cables are exposed. If either of positive or neutral sheath degrades, we are in danger of David's worst case scenario. Could this be ameliorated with a 4-core cable, with a second earth just left exposed at the pump inlet? I dont see how this would solve the risk problem. (I don't know where the present earth goes, but the pump appears to be exclusively plastic and ceramic at the accessible level.) Or could I simply earth the pond? Pond is already earthed. Solutions have already been explained. Taking strips of 100% synthetic cloth, squish silicone into them and applying would give a reinforced waterproof outer sheath. NT |
#29
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 8 Aug 2006 12:21:59 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:- But I do know most animals are a lot more susceptible to electric shock than humans, so I wouldnt make assumptions. Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#30
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 8 Aug 2006 05:25:26 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:- I'm certainly not recommending that as its far from best practice, but I think tinnews is right about the risks being overstated. I don't think I or anyone else has overstated the risks. However, they are not zero. The point is whether one would want to trust one's life to a mechanical gadget, secondary safety, as opposed to the primary safety approach of proper cable insulation by replacing the pump. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#31
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote:
On 8 Aug 2006 12:21:59 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- But I do know most animals are a lot more susceptible to electric shock than humans, so I wouldnt make assumptions. Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. Not strange at all, they're quite long compared with a person, along the ground anyway. -- Chris Green |
#32
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On 08 Aug 2006 20:44:46 GMT someone who may be
wrote this:- Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. Not strange at all, they're quite long compared with a person, along the ground anyway. So are other animals that are not as susceptible. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#33
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:37:45 +0100, David Hansen wrote:
On 08 Aug 2006 20:44:46 GMT someone who may be wrote this:- Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. Not strange at all, they're quite long compared with a person, along the ground anyway. So are other animals that are not as susceptible. That's rather a sweeping generalisation to suggest that other animals with a long spread between front and back legs are less susceptible. It's predominantly cows that live in our fields and get electrocuted, and they invariably tend to be the farmer's very best prize milker or champion bull, worth more than any other. There's much less case history about other animals -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#34
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
David Hansen wrote:
On 08 Aug 2006 20:44:46 GMT someone who may be wrote this:- Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. Not strange at all, they're quite long compared with a person, along the ground anyway. So are other animals that are not as susceptible. I'd heard that most 'long' animals are just as susceptible, certainly horses are know to be quite vulnerable to voltage gradients in fields. -- Chris Green |
#35
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
wrote:
David Hansen wrote: On 8 Aug 2006 12:21:59 -0700 someone who may be wrote this:- But I do know most animals are a lot more susceptible to electric shock than humans, so I wouldnt make assumptions. Indeed. It seems strange that something as robust as a cow is very susceptible to voltage gradients, but they are. Not strange at all, they're quite long compared with a person, along the ground anyway. That's right. It's the same reason as why lying flat out on the ground in a thunderstorm, is a bad idea. John -- John White, Electrical Contractor |
#36
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Rewiring garden pond pump?
Douglas de Lacey wrote: I have an old pump (Lotus "Little Gem") which is still working fine (so am loath to throw it away) but the cable is becoming very degraded: the outer rubber cover is cracking away in several places. As far as I can see the cable just disappears into a lump of resin(?) in the body of the pump. Any thoughts about digging this out and replacing it (with silicone?) -- or am I really onto a loser here? Douglas de Lacey Hoe about heat-shrink sleeving + good dollop of silicone where it enters the pump? You need only do the underwater bit that way. If it's bad all the way up the garden, you can use something like http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BRH65Z.html to splice on the rest. I'm assuming that H-SS is OK for immersion and UV-proof You could add an outer sheath of hosepipe for good measure. Chris |
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