Hi all,

I was round some friends tonight and they (well 'she' mainly) were
talking of moving the washing machine out of the kitchen and into the
reasonably large downstairs toilet / closet area and fitting a
dishwasher in the vacated space in the kitchen (a 15 year dream of
hers apparently) ;-)

They asked me what I thought and I wasn't sure of a couple (at least)
of things?

Like the waste for existing hand basin in the toilet is only 1-1/4"
(and it runs down through the concrete floor then under the house
apparently) ? Would an ordinary standpipe and 'U' trap be sufficient
(with the common part shared by a tiny hand basin as well)?

They have power on the opposite side of wall that would be beside the
washing machine. Could a spur be brought up (to a 13A switched socket)
to above the worktop they intend to fit over the washing machine or
would it be best left underneath (and would there be any other issues
bringing power into that sort of space (it's not a bathroom or
kitchen))? Both power rings (u/d) are off an RCD if that helps?

Anything else?

All the best ..

T i m

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:14:45 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

Hi all,

I was round some friends tonight and they (well 'she' mainly) were
talking of moving the washing machine out of the kitchen and into the
reasonably large downstairs toilet / closet area and fitting a
dishwasher in the vacated space in the kitchen (a 15 year dream of
hers apparently) ;-)

They asked me what I thought and I wasn't sure of a couple (at least)
of things?

Like the waste for existing hand basin in the toilet is only 1-1/4"
(and it runs down through the concrete floor then under the house
apparently) ? Would an ordinary standpipe and 'U' trap be sufficient
(with the common part shared by a tiny hand basin as well)?

A couple of ideas.

- Run a test. This would involve cutting in a tee and a standpipe to the
basin waste and trying it out. Obviously factors with the small size of
pipe are the length and slope. Problems that could occur would be water
squirting out of the top of the standpipe and the potential for the basin
trap to be sucked dry. The trap issue could be addressed with a HepVO
trap, but it would be difficult to address an inadequate waste pipe overall.

It would be rather foolish to commit to the electrics and the whole project
without doing a basic test

- Alternative. Is the toilet soil pipe straight into the floor?

If so, it may be possible to fit a collar boss. Have a look at

http://www.marleyplumbinganddrainage...roduct_categor
y=sW_Vent_Compts

http://tinyurl.com/lal8t

and product code SCB41.

I used one in a cloakroom as part of a more convenient waste arrangement for
a basin. Depending on the soil pipe socket in the floor, this component can
either be fitted straight in or with a little excavation, sunk such that the
bosses on the side are flush with the floor.

The bosses are 40mm which would certainly be enough to accomodate a washing
machine.





They have power on the opposite side of wall that would be beside the
washing machine. Could a spur be brought up (to a 13A switched socket)
to above the worktop they intend to fit over the washing machine or
would it be best left underneath (and would there be any other issues
bringing power into that sort of space (it's not a bathroom or
kitchen))? Both power rings (u/d) are off an RCD if that helps?

I would put a switchable FCU above the worktop and a socket below. This
gives a neat solution without flexes on view.



Anything else?

All the best ..

T i m

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:48:06 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Like the waste for existing hand basin in the toilet is only 1-1/4"
(and it runs down through the concrete floor then under the house
apparently) ? Would an ordinary standpipe and 'U' trap be sufficient
(with the common part shared by a tiny hand basin as well)?

A couple of ideas.

Ok,

- Run a test. This would involve cutting in a tee and a standpipe to the
basin waste and trying it out.

With the washing machine etc I assume?

Obviously factors with the small size of
pipe are the length and slope.

It's possible (assuming this is how they would normally do such
things) the basin waste joins fairly quickly to the waste from the
toilet under the floor so the narrow gauge run could be quite short?

Problems that could occur would be water
squirting out of the top of the standpipe and the potential for the basin
trap to be sucked dry.

Understood

The trap issue could be addressed with a HepVO
trap,

As I have on my hand basin waste here (as my washing machine is
upstream of the basin). ;-)

but it would be difficult to address an inadequate waste pipe overall.

I wonder if you could just pour a known quantity of water (a 10l
bucket?) down the existing basin waste somehow and see how long it
takes?

It would be rather foolish to commit to the electrics and the whole project
without doing a basic test

Agreed .. thanks ..

- Alternative. Is the toilet soil pipe straight into the floor?

To be honest I didn't look .. I will give em a ring and see if they
can describe it to me?

If so, it may be possible to fit a collar boss. Have a look at

http://www.marleyplumbinganddrainage...roduct_categor
y=sW_Vent_Compts

http://tinyurl.com/lal8t

and product code SCB41.

Found. Ok, so this would all depend on how the soil exits etc .. good
idea though .. plenty of capacity etc ..

I used one in a cloakroom as part of a more convenient waste arrangement for
a basin. Depending on the soil pipe socket in the floor, this component can
either be fitted straight in or with a little excavation, sunk such that the
bosses on the side are flush with the floor.

Ok ..

The bosses are 40mm which would certainly be enough to accomodate a washing
machine.

Ok ..


They have power on the opposite side of wall that would be beside the
washing machine. Could a spur be brought up (to a 13A switched socket)
to above the worktop they intend to fit over the washing machine or
would it be best left underneath (and would there be any other issues
bringing power into that sort of space (it's not a bathroom or
kitchen))? Both power rings (u/d) are off an RCD if that helps?

I would put a switchable FCU above the worktop and a socket below. This
gives a neat solution without flexes on view.

And holes / cropped corners bringing the cord through etc.

All the best and thanks for your input Andy ..

T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:53:43 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:48:06 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Like the waste for existing hand basin in the toilet is only 1-1/4"
(and it runs down through the concrete floor then under the house
apparently) ? Would an ordinary standpipe and 'U' trap be sufficient
(with the common part shared by a tiny hand basin as well)?

A couple of ideas.

Ok,

- Run a test. This would involve cutting in a tee and a standpipe to
the
basin waste and trying it out.

With the washing machine etc I assume?

Ideally, although perhaps one could simulate it with a bucket, a hose and a
funnel?



Obviously factors with the small size of
pipe are the length and slope.

It's possible (assuming this is how they would normally do such
things) the basin waste joins fairly quickly to the waste from the
toilet under the floor so the narrow gauge run could be quite short?

God may be smiling on them. It would probably entail removing the loo to
see.



Problems that could occur would be water
squirting out of the top of the standpipe and the potential for the basin
trap to be sucked dry.

Understood

The trap issue could be addressed with a HepVO
trap,

As I have on my hand basin waste here (as my washing machine is
upstream of the basin). ;-)

but it would be difficult to address an inadequate waste pipe overall.

I wonder if you could just pour a known quantity of water (a 10l
bucket?) down the existing basin waste somehow and see how long it
takes?

That would be a start but then the trap is in the way and tends to reduce the
flow. I suppose one could measure the flow rate out of the washing machine
and then see how quickly the same volume of water takes to flow out of the
basin.






It would be rather foolish to commit to the electrics and the whole project
without doing a basic test

Agreed .. thanks ..

- Alternative. Is the toilet soil pipe straight into the floor?

To be honest I didn't look .. I will give em a ring and see if they
can describe it to me?

If so, it may be possible to fit a collar boss. Have a look at

http://www.marleyplumbinganddrainage...?product_categ
or
y=sW_Vent_Compts

http://tinyurl.com/lal8t

and product code SCB41.

Found. Ok, so this would all depend on how the soil exits etc .. good
idea though .. plenty of capacity etc ..

Yes, and also the soil pipe connection in the floor. I was fortunate that
mine was a little way below the floor and all that was necessary was to
excavate the shape for the angled piece of the boss. There could be room to
fit the whole thing above the floor, but if it's on show, a little ugly. Of
course, one way round that would be to switch the bog for a back to wall or
wall hung one and make the cistern a concealed one.





I used one in a cloakroom as part of a more convenient waste arrangement
for
a basin. Depending on the soil pipe socket in the floor, this component
can
either be fitted straight in or with a little excavation, sunk such that
the
bosses on the side are flush with the floor.

Ok ..

The bosses are 40mm which would certainly be enough to accomodate a washing
machine.

Ok ..


They have power on the opposite side of wall that would be beside the
washing machine. Could a spur be brought up (to a 13A switched socket)
to above the worktop they intend to fit over the washing machine or
would it be best left underneath (and would there be any other issues
bringing power into that sort of space (it's not a bathroom or
kitchen))? Both power rings (u/d) are off an RCD if that helps?

I would put a switchable FCU above the worktop and a socket below. This
gives a neat solution without flexes on view.

And holes / cropped corners bringing the cord through etc.


You would wire a spur from the circuit on the other side of the wall in T&E.
Then run T&E from the FCU (pick one without flex outlet hole) down the wall
behind the back of the worktop. Then fit an unswitched 13A outlet below
worktop level. No flex on show.




All the best and thanks for your input Andy ..

T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 09:20:55 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


That would be a start but then the trap is in the way and tends to reduce the
flow. I suppose one could measure the flow rate out of the washing machine
and then see how quickly the same volume of water takes to flow out of the
basin.

Ah, that sounds like the 'easiest' Andy .. assuming a full wash
quantity of water is less than our total bucket count! ;-)


Found. Ok, so this would all depend on how the soil exits etc .. good
idea though .. plenty of capacity etc ..

Yes, and also the soil pipe connection in the floor. I was fortunate that
mine was a little way below the floor and all that was necessary was to
excavate the shape for the angled piece of the boss. There could be room to
fit the whole thing above the floor, but if it's on show, a little ugly. Of
course, one way round that would be to switch the bog for a back to wall or
wall hung one and make the cistern a concealed one.

Ok, so an inspection is needed .. ;-)

And holes / cropped corners bringing the cord through etc.


You would wire a spur from the circuit on the other side of the wall in T&E.
Then run T&E from the FCU (pick one without flex outlet hole) down the wall
behind the back of the worktop. Then fit an unswitched 13A outlet below
worktop level. No flex on show.

Yep, exactly as per the picture in my mind Andy ;-) I was wondering
'why' one wouldn't just fit a single switched 13A socket, as it
provides disconnection and fused via the plug top but I guess if
something went wrong and the socket was hidden behind the machine etc?

All the best and thanks again ..

T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:29:10 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Like the waste for existing hand basin in the toilet is only 1-1/4"
(and it runs down through the concrete floor then under the house
apparently) ? Would an ordinary standpipe and 'U' trap be sufficient
(with the common part shared by a tiny hand basin as well)?

It might well work. However, legally, you are supposed to use 40mm pipework
for a washing machine, not 32mm. You could either ignore this requirement if
you are so inclined, replace the pipework, or (complete overkill and not
really recommended) pump the waste outlet.

Ah, ok, interesting stuff. So when you say 'legally' Christian what
does that actually mean? I mean I'm aware electrics might come under
PartP or gas Corgi etc but what 'law' would cover this sort of job
please (and can it be applied retrospectively in which case loads of
the work I have come across would have the 'plumbers' in jail
quick-as-you-like!).

(and would there be any other issues bringing power into that sort
of space (it's not a bathroom or kitchen))?

No problem at all.

Ok, thanks. ;-)

All the best ...

T i m

Ah, ok, interesting stuff. So when you say 'legally' Christian what
does that actually mean? I mean I'm aware electrics might come under
PartP or gas Corgi etc but what 'law' would cover this sort of job
please (and can it be applied retrospectively in which case loads of
the work I have come across would have the 'plumbers' in jail
quick-as-you-like!).

Building Regulations Part H.

Table 1 Minimum trap sizes and seal depths
Appliance, Diameter of trap, Depth of seal
Washbasin, 32mm, 75mm
Washing machine, 40mm, 75mm

1.15 Sizes of branch pipes serving a single appliance should have at least
the same diameter as the appliance trap (see Table 1). If a pipe serves more
than one appliance, and is unventilated, the diameter should be at least
size shown in Table 2.

Another alternative may be to use the toilet branch.

Christian.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:12:29 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Ah, ok, interesting stuff. So when you say 'legally' Christian what
does that actually mean? I mean I'm aware electrics might come under
PartP or gas Corgi etc but what 'law' would cover this sort of job
please (and can it be applied retrospectively in which case loads of
the work I have come across would have the 'plumbers' in jail
quick-as-you-like!).

Building Regulations Part H.

Table 1 Minimum trap sizes and seal depths
Appliance, Diameter of trap, Depth of seal
Washbasin, 32mm, 75mm
Washing machine, 40mm, 75mm

1.15 Sizes of branch pipes serving a single appliance should have at least
the same diameter as the appliance trap (see Table 1). If a pipe serves more
than one appliance, and is unventilated, the diameter should be at least
size shown in Table 2.

Ah .. ;-(

Another alternative may be to use the toilet branch.

Ok, they'll have to look at that one closer then ...

Cheers Christian ..

T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:48:30 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:12:29 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Ah, ok, interesting stuff. So when you say 'legally' Christian what
does that actually mean? I mean I'm aware electrics might come under
PartP or gas Corgi etc but what 'law' would cover this sort of job
please (and can it be applied retrospectively in which case loads of
the work I have come across would have the 'plumbers' in jail
quick-as-you-like!).

Building Regulations Part H.

Table 1 Minimum trap sizes and seal depths
Appliance, Diameter of trap, Depth of seal
Washbasin, 32mm, 75mm
Washing machine, 40mm, 75mm

1.15 Sizes of branch pipes serving a single appliance should have at least
the same diameter as the appliance trap (see Table 1). If a pipe serves more
than one appliance, and is unventilated, the diameter should be at least
size shown in Table 2.

Ah .. ;-(

Another alternative may be to use the toilet branch.

Ok, they'll have to look at that one closer then ...

One other thought along these lines is that if the toilet pan has a
horizontal soil pipe exit and then a 90 degree plastic adaptor to connect to
the socket in the floor, whether one could fit a strap type boss onto said
adaptor pipe at floor level.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:00:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:



One other thought along these lines is that if the toilet pan has a
horizontal soil pipe exit and then a 90 degree plastic adaptor to connect to
the socket in the floor, whether one could fit a strap type boss onto said
adaptor pipe at floor level.

Hmm, I've just phoned them and that sounds exactly what they have got?

Would there be any chance of fouling (where the 40mm joins the soil
pipe) or would you fit it in at the top of the pipe?

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. They are gonna take some pictures and send me .. if they can
figure out how to do *that* ?

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:06:26 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:00:01 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:



One other thought along these lines is that if the toilet pan has a
horizontal soil pipe exit and then a 90 degree plastic adaptor to connect
to
the socket in the floor, whether one could fit a strap type boss onto said
adaptor pipe at floor level.

Hmm, I've just phoned them and that sounds exactly what they have got?

Would there be any chance of fouling (where the 40mm joins the soil
pipe) or would you fit it in at the top of the pipe?

That I'm not sure about. it''s possible that there may be some building
regulation rules that would kybosh this, because of minimum distance
requirements. However, I believe that has more to do with risk of sucking
out of traps than possible fouling. I was thinking aloud as much as
anything on this one.

The adaptor that I pointed out yesterday has an internal design where the
spigot of the pan adaptor projects into the centre of the fitting thus
preventing that I assume.



All the best ..

T i m

p.s. They are gonna take some pictures and send me .. if they can
figure out how to do *that* ?

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:34:56 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Would there be any chance of fouling (where the 40mm joins the soil
pipe) or would you fit it in at the top of the pipe?

That I'm not sure about. it''s possible that there may be some building
regulation rules that would kybosh this, because of minimum distance
requirements.

Aren't there always .. ;-(

However, I believe that has more to do with risk of sucking
out of traps than possible fouling. I was thinking aloud as much as
anything on this one.

Isn't that what Durgo's are for?

The adaptor that I pointed out yesterday has an internal design where the
spigot of the pan adaptor projects into the centre of the fitting thus
preventing that I assume.

Ah, yeah, that makes sense .. sorta engineered in ...hydrodynamics ..
motions in motion .. etc .-(

All the best ..

T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:03:48 +0100, T i m wrote
(in article ):

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:34:56 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


Would there be any chance of fouling (where the 40mm joins the soil
pipe) or would you fit it in at the top of the pipe?

That I'm not sure about. it''s possible that there may be some building
regulation rules that would kybosh this, because of minimum distance
requirements.

Aren't there always .. ;-(

However, I believe that has more to do with risk of sucking
out of traps than possible fouling. I was thinking aloud as much as
anything on this one.

Isn't that what Durgo's are for?

They are to let air into a soil pipe. However, I was trying to think of
ways not to make the soil pipe installation massive.

I'm doing a cloakroom remodelling exercise at the moment, so hence the
research. The original installation did not pay too much attention to pipe
routing and hiding leaving lots of pipes, radiators etc. in view.
I'm changing the toilet for a wall hung one which means that the soil pipe
plus waste leading to it will be able to be totally concealed.
I'm not taking installing a washing machine into account, but if your friends
were open to a bit of reworking and a new toilet into the bargain, the whole
job could be completed very neatly.

have a look at

http://www.grohe.co.uk/t/25_848.html

and

http://www.geberit.co.uk/geberit/ine...san-Wall-duo-1
Another option is back to wall pans where the pan sits on the floor ut has a
flat back to butt against an enclosed cistern.

In either case it becomes easy to hide the soil pipe and a lot of other
plumbing into the bargain.

Just some more ideas that they might like to consider.





The adaptor that I pointed out yesterday has an internal design where the
spigot of the pan adaptor projects into the centre of the fitting thus
preventing that I assume.

Ah, yeah, that makes sense .. sorta engineered in ...hydrodynamics ..
motions in motion .. etc .-(

All the best ..

T i m