Now that the power cut season will soon be here again I've been thinking
about getting one of those small petrol driven generators which could be put
to good use as well as acting as an emergency electricity supply - basically
running the central heating and some lighting.

In use, is it simply a matter of connecting an 'extension lead' with
trailing bank of sockets to the generator and using this in the house to
plug in your essentials? Or is there a way of putting some sort of
permanent system in the house which can be connected to the generator?

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague.....

Thanks
Tony

Tony Hayes wrote:
Now that the power cut season will soon be here again I've been
thinking about getting one of those small petrol driven generators
which could be put to good use as well as acting as an emergency
electricity supply - basically running the central heating and some
lighting.

In use, is it simply a matter of connecting an 'extension lead' with
trailing bank of sockets to the generator and using this in the
house
to plug in your essentials? Or is there a way of putting some sort
of
permanent system in the house which can be connected to the
generator?

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague.....

Thanks
Tony

For domestic use it is simpler to put in a flying lead to power up
essentials. There are special changeover switches to swap to
generator power and back.

My personal favorite though is to have one low draw ring main which is
only used for central heating pump, gas boiler, tv / satellite/ video,
and a couple of strategic lights, run this circuit off a ups and when
the rest of the house goes into darkness you have a few minutes of
light to fire up the generator to power the ups.

MrCheerful

"Tony Hayes" wrote in message
...
Now that the power cut season will soon be here again

What is the power cut season?

Adam

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:44:18 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

What is the power cut season?

The season when power cuts are dark and annoying, rather than merely
annoying.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
wrote:

What is the power cut season?

The season when power cuts are dark and annoying, rather than merely
annoying.

This is a really good question. Other than getting a generator, what other
ways are there that we can get organised now, rather than wait for it to
happen. After last years fiasco I'd rather be really well prepared. In my
case I was grateful for an open fire with back boiler. Although it
only heats one radiator and hot water, I was very glad I had it. I could at
least have a bath and go to work refreshed and clean! I've also acquired a
toasting fork so can live off beans on toast for a few days. Lighting is
the main difficulty without a generator.

Anyone got any ingenious ideas to prepare for power cut season? the more
Heath Robinson the better!

Liz


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:24:53 GMT, "MrCheerful"
wrote:

My personal favorite though is to have one low draw ring main which is
only used for central heating pump, gas boiler, tv / satellite/ video,
and a couple of strategic lights, run this circuit off a ups and when
the rest of the house goes into darkness you have a few minutes of
light to fire up the generator to power the ups.

Sounds good. Perhaps I'm just being a bit thick here, but I have a
question......

Are you saying that the UPS supported mains is permanently configured
to run off the protected side of the UPS?

I can't see any other way of achieving what you suggest, and if that's
the case surely the protected circuit has to be sent around the house,
duplicating the regular (non-UPS) mains circuit?

PoP

"Liz" wrote in message
...

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
wrote:

What is the power cut season?

The season when power cuts are dark and annoying, rather than merely
annoying.

This is a really good question. Other than getting a generator, what
other
ways are there that we can get organised now, rather than wait for it to
happen. After last years fiasco I'd rather be really well prepared. In
my
case I was grateful for an open fire with back boiler. Although it
only heats one radiator and hot water, I was very glad I had it. I could
at
least have a bath and go to work refreshed and clean! I've also acquired
a
toasting fork so can live off beans on toast for a few days. Lighting is
the main difficulty without a generator.

Anyone got any ingenious ideas to prepare for power cut season? the more
Heath Robinson the better!


We live in an isolated area and suffer power cuts several times a year.
About 10 years ago I made a 500W 12V to 230V ac invertor and together with a
large 130AH 12V battery which I keep fully charged normally keeps us out of
trouble. Using a string of low energy bulbs (11W equiv 60W incandescent) I
can illuminate the whole house and still have power left to run the central
heating pump (solid fuel boiler) and a radio for over 3 hours which is
normally sufficient.
Last year was an exception and we were cut off for just over 2 days.
Fortunately we always keep the two cars pretty full of petrol in case of
emergencies and last year used them to charge up the spare battery and keep
the backup system running for heating. Obviously we have the usual camping
stoves etc available for cooking so managed to survive without too much
inconvenience other than the loss of the freezer contents (which was insured
anyway).

I believe that you can now buy 150W and 300W converters for under £50 now,
ready made and ready to run. This works out much cheaper as a standby than
buying a dedicated petrol generator which you may never need if you live in
London or other big city.

Dave

PoP wrote:
On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:24:53 GMT, "MrCheerful"
wrote:

My personal favorite though is to have one low draw ring main which
is only used for central heating pump, gas boiler, tv / satellite/
video, and a couple of strategic lights, run this circuit off a ups
and when the rest of the house goes into darkness you have a few
minutes of light to fire up the generator to power the ups.

Sounds good. Perhaps I'm just being a bit thick here, but I have a
question......

Are you saying that the UPS supported mains is permanently
configured
to run off the protected side of the UPS?

I can't see any other way of achieving what you suggest, and if
that's
the case surely the protected circuit has to be sent around the
house,
duplicating the regular (non-UPS) mains circuit?

PoP

Effectively I run the 'essential' ring off the ups and change the ups
over to generator supply.

MrCheerful

"I've been thinking about getting one of those small petrol driven
generators"
[..]

don't bother, buy more candles and thermal clothing (c;

if you want to use a gen work out what your power requirements are, heating
pump, fridge, freezer, lighting, tv or whatever and add some.

my 2.2kw gen barely powers a kettle (c;

Les

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:39:27 +0100, PoP wrote:

Are you saying that the UPS supported mains is permanently
configured to run off the protected side of the UPS?

I can't see any other way of achieving what you suggest, and if
that's the case surely the protected circuit has to be sent around
the house, duplicating the regular (non-UPS) mains circuit?

That is correct and something I'm keeping in the back of my mind as a
rewire the various parts of this building. Though the UPS wouldn't
feed everything just those things that really don't like having power
removed without warning, like PCs.

There would be a "maintained" supply that can easyly be fed from the
incoming mains or changed over to a generator, this would power things
like fridges, freezers, strategic lighting (kitchens, stairs, living
rooms) and the input to the UPS. This maintained supply would have
non-standard "13A" sockets so the 3kW kettle can't be plugged into a
2kW gene...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote
| What is the power cut season?
| Last year, December 10th was almost... UK came with 3 minutes
| of having to start load shedding (in the South East apparently)
| because not enough power was being generated to meet demand.

I read in the paper this weekend that the Scottish Grid, currently
administered by the two generators ScottishPower and Scottish Hydro
Electric, is going to be brought under the control of England.

I am starting to get worried...

Owain

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:29:34 +0100, Liz wrote:

Other than getting a generator, what other ways are there that we
can get organised now, rather than wait for it to happen. After last
years fiasco I'd rather be really well prepared.

Keep a working torch by your bed and possibly other locations around
the house. Maybe install a non-maintained(*) emergency light in a key
location, top of the stairs and hallway are good. Light can come in
through open doors to enable careful movement in the rooms.

Have the faults phone number of your local power distribution company
handy (may not be the same as the company you buy your power from).

Think of means to heat water without electricity, we have a two ring
Camping Gaz hob and grill that runs from a large butane cylinder.
Heats water fine for drinks/washing, good enough to cook up a
reasonable meal on as well.

Think of foods that don't require you to open the freezer (opening the
door of a freezer shortens it's defrost time considerably). So a stock
of dried and/or tinned stuff. This reminds me I need to check that the
week or so of winter stock I try to keep in is still useable and
there. Neighbours keep 3 weeks food supplies in during the winter,
they have experienced real winters up here, we haven't, yet.

Lighting is the main difficulty without a generator.

This is very true. We have some "cyalume" lights sticks, good enough
to move about and eat by (just) but not for cooking by. I've looked
around for things with decent output and life. Battery powered stuff
has a short life, just a few hours or less if you have reasonable
light from it.

I think I'll be getting a couple of gas powered lanterns. These chuck
out roughly the same as a 60W bulb or more and last a good time
(12hrs+) on one easily stored, no shelf life, cannister. Don't forget
spare mantels and gas...

(*) "Non-maintained" means that it is off until the power fails when
it comes on. These normally run for about 3hrs. A "maintained"
emergency light is one that is on all the time and will continue to
run for about 3hrs after the power is lost.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Liz" wrote
| Lighting is the main difficulty without a generator.

A couple of Emergency Lighting Units eg stairs and kitchen make life easier
and safer and will last for several hours.

A *very small* microwave can be run off a car battery with an inverter unit,
which will also do central heating pump, or run small fluoro lamps far more
efficient than torches.

My main difficulty is the tv. I have a battery radio and tv (and a box of 20
D batteries I got cheap from government surplus) but tv reception is
dependent on the communal aerial amplifier. I am also dependent on electric
for cooking. (having neither a car nor a microwave, the inverter idea
doesn't work for me) but hopefully the nearby chippies/chinese are gas
fired. But power cuts here are rare and short-lived, usually related to aged
underground cables and/or digger drivers.

Owain

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:29:34 +0100, "Liz" wrote:

Anyone got any ingenious ideas to prepare for power cut season? the more
Heath Robinson the better!

Install an emergency light which comes on if the power fails. These
give light for up to 3 hours typically, and if positioned in the hall
or landing can give enough light to find your way to the candles or
beer supply.

Example:

http://tinyurl.com/lw7n

PoP

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:33:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



(*) "Non-maintained" means that it is off until the power fails when
it comes on. These normally run for about 3hrs. A "maintained"
emergency light is one that is on all the time and will continue to
run for about 3hrs after the power is lost.

It depends on what you buy, Dave.

I have some maintained ones and they can be switched on and off as for
a normal light, but will come on regardless on power failure. This
obviously requires two live connections though.

You can also buy retrofit kits which will go into a standard
fluorescent fitting, replacing the choke and provide HF lighting as
well as the emergency functions.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"But it wouldn't - a kettle is close on 3kW!!"
[..]

that's some kettle you got there then, ours is a mere 2kw )c;

Les

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:

"Tony Hayes" wrote in message
...
Now that the power cut season will soon be here again

What is the power cut season?

Last year, December 10th was almost... UK came with 3 minutes
of having to start load shedding (in the South East apparently)
because not enough power was being generated to meet demand.

Ahh .. the joys of a 'free market' - just like the railways ............

Ain't politics wonderful.

In article ,
"Mike Faithfull" writes:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

Last year, December 10th was almost... UK came with 3 minutes
of having to start load shedding (in the South East apparently)
because not enough power was being generated to meet demand.

Ahh .. the joys of a 'free market' - just like the railways ............

Ain't politics wonderful.

For multiple reasons, those involved in the industry expect our
electricity supply to significantly reduce in reliability over
the coming years. However, you can certainly blame them all on
politics.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Owain wrote:

I read in the paper this weekend that the Scottish Grid, currently
administered by the two generators ScottishPower and Scottish Hydro
Electric, is going to be brought under the control of England.

I am starting to get worried...

When I redo the garage roof, perhaps I should consider soalr panels. And a
small windmill in the garden?

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:12:49 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

That is correct and something I'm keeping in the back of my mind as a
rewire the various parts of this building. Though the UPS wouldn't
feed everything just those things that really don't like having power
removed without warning, like PCs.

This use of a UPS raises a query in my mind. Isn't there a set of
regulations covering computer room supplies? Maybe that just applies
to computers on the circuit though.

One thing to be very wary of in respect of cabling the suggested
solution, someone might decide to do some wiring work and start by
switching off at the consumer unit. By doing so they would assume that
all sockets in the house were dead. Could be lethal if they start
jabbing screwdrivers into one of these UPS circuits.

Andrew

On 2 Sep 2003 00:10:56 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

For multiple reasons, those involved in the industry expect our
electricity supply to significantly reduce in reliability over
the coming years. However, you can certainly blame them all on
politics.

Cue 1970's.....Arthur Scargill is around someplace.

PoP

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 00:01:52 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Just looked at the base on ours (Russell Hobbs Millennium, great
kettle), says 3kW.

Shirley better to consider heating water in the microwave during an
outage isn't it? Can't remember the power consumption of a microwave
but I thought it was relatively small compared with a kettle.

PoP

Tony Hayes wrote:

Now that the power cut season will soon be here again I've been thinking
about getting one of those small petrol driven generators which could be put
to good use as well as acting as an emergency electricity supply - basically
running the central heating and some lighting.

In use, is it simply a matter of connecting an 'extension lead' with
trailing bank of sockets to the generator and using this in the house to
plug in your essentials? Or is there a way of putting some sort of
permanent system in the house which can be connected to the generator?

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague.....


An emergency bodge is to use a nasty 'live plug' wired in backwards to
your ring main, and use th consumer unit to select which circuits are
activated. DO switch the main circuit breaker off tho. Your generator is
not equipped to feed the national grid if power is restored ...or the
neighbours lights if it isn't :-)


NOTE: This is thoroughly bad practice, probably illegal, and extremely
dangerous if you don't understand what I said.

However, it may prove useful in an emergency.



Thanks
Tony

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:34:04 +0100, Owain wrote:

A couple of Emergency Lighting Units eg stairs and kitchen make life
easier and safer and will last for several hours.

3 normally, power cuts here are either measured in less than a minute
or 6hrs+.

My main difficulty is the tv.

Who *needs* TV, there are such things as books, cards, board games
etc.

I have a battery radio and tv (and a box of 20 D batteries I got
cheap from government surplus)

And their "Use by:" date is?

I am also dependent on electric for cooking.

Thats the one you really need to take care of. Get a small Camping Gaz
stove. Think I've seen 2 packs, stove and lantern for about =A320. Take =

care with these they do get hot(doh!), have naked flames and can
present a fire hazard.

but hopefully the nearby chippies/chinese are gas fired.

But will they be open if their till doesn't work or have poor
lighting. Think of H&S and great vats of hot fat in poor lighting, if
an employee had an accident or a customer come to that the chippie
would be liable...

Things have changed since the dark days of the 4 day week. I can
remember going shopping in places in virtual darkness then and of
course cashiers could add up and work out chnage without the aid of a
machine...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Grunff wrote:

in2minds wrote:

"I've been thinking about getting one of those small petrol driven
generators"
[..]

don't bother, buy more candles and thermal clothing (c;

if you want to use a gen work out what your power requirements are,
heating
pump, fridge, freezer, lighting, tv or whatever and add some.

my 2.2kw gen barely powers a kettle (c;


But it wouldn't - a kettle is close on 3kW!!

I reckon the numbers would work out something like this:

CH (pump/s, boiler) = 200W
Fridge = 400W
TV + DVD + stereo = 300W
Conservative lights = 300W
PC = 300W

That's about 1.5kW. So a 3kW generator would be more than plenty. You'd
just have to make sure you were careful about what loads you ran while
running off the genny.


Sopld fuel stoves and open fires and candles all work well for me.
Kettle boils on the aga, but I have used camping stoves as well. AND
barbecues.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:08:09 +0100, Tony Hayes wrote:

Now that the power cut season will soon be here again I've been thinking
about getting one of those small petrol driven generators which could be put
to good use as well as acting as an emergency electricity supply - basically
running the central heating and some lighting.

In use, is it simply a matter of connecting an 'extension lead' with
trailing bank of sockets to the generator and using this in the house to
plug in your essentials? Or is there a way of putting some sort of
permanent system in the house which can be connected to the generator?

If you decide to go down that line, wire it in permanently. Somewhere
along the line *someone* will decide to try and use a lead with two plug
tops back to back to feed into a ring main, and that's lethal.

Generators must have their neutral separately earthed, unless the
incoming supply is pme, when you are allowed to bond the earth of the
generator to the earth terminal at the meter position. Don't neglect to
make proper provision for protection against overcurrent and earth
leakage faults. Most users of stand by generators don't give a second
thought as to whether or not they are using a safe arrangement, in fact
I'd go so far as to say that most generators are used in a positively
unsafe manner when used as an emergency domestic supply.

You will need a two pole break before make changeover switch, so that
the generator cannot run in parallel with the main supply. Your local
distribution company will advise on the current requirements for using a
stand-by generator.

Owain wrote:

But power cuts here are rare and short-lived, usually related to aged
underground cables and/or digger drivers.



Not round here they aren't. Usually related o large trees falling across
overhad lines. Usually takes a minimum of a coule of hours to clear, if
its just isolate/remove/switch on, or up to several days if lines are
actually broken in several places.


Owain

In article ,
PoP writes:
This use of a UPS raises a query in my mind. Isn't there a set of
regulations covering computer room supplies? Maybe that just applies
to computers on the circuit though.

There are rules relating to UPS's and generator sets.
Earthing them properly is a rather non-trivial task.
You aren't allowed to assume an earth provided by your
electricity supplier is still working when the supply
fails.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
PoP writes:
On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 00:01:52 +0100, Grunff wrote:

Just looked at the base on ours (Russell Hobbs Millennium, great
kettle), says 3kW.

Shirley better to consider heating water in the microwave during an
outage isn't it? Can't remember the power consumption of a microwave
but I thought it was relatively small compared with a kettle.

I don't think the magnetrons in domestic microwaves ever exceed
50% efficiency. The waste heat is blown through the food compartment
too, but I doubt much actually goes into the food/water -- it's
mostly wasted.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

An emergency bodge is to use a nasty 'live plug' wired in backwards to
your ring main, and use th consumer unit to select which circuits are
activated. DO switch the main circuit breaker off tho. Your generator is
not equipped to feed the national grid if power is restored ...or the
neighbours lights if it isn't :-)


NOTE: This is thoroughly bad practice, probably illegal, and extremely
dangerous if you don't understand what I said.

However, it may prove useful in an emergency.

If you want to go this route, you must have much better interlocks
to ensure there's no way you can feed electricity back out of your
supply and electrocute someone working on the supply line.
This is normally done with a transfer switch.

Also, some circuit breakers may not be designed to stay live on the
load side when switched off.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
says...

This is a really good question. Other than getting a generator, what other
ways are there that we can get organised now, rather than wait for it to
happen. After last years fiasco I'd rather be really well prepared. In my
case I was grateful for an open fire with back boiler. Although it
only heats one radiator and hot water, I was very glad I had it. I could at
least have a bath and go to work refreshed and clean! I've also acquired a
toasting fork so can live off beans on toast for a few days. Lighting is
the main difficulty without a generator.

Anyone got any ingenious ideas to prepare for power cut season? the more
Heath Robinson the better!

I'm already there. Off the grid with two wind turbines, batteries,
inverters and three (the previous occupant did nothing by half) diesel
generators---should the wind fail, coal/wood fire with back boiler
providing non-pumped heating to bedroom radiators, oil and lpg cooking,
and some oil heating (CH and stove). And, plenty of fuel stocks for the
winter.

Colin

On 2 Sep 2003 07:46:27 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I don't think the magnetrons in domestic microwaves ever exceed
50% efficiency. The waste heat is blown through the food compartment
too, but I doubt much actually goes into the food/water -- it's
mostly wasted.

Just looked at the rating panel on our fairly recent Category E (800W
output) microwave. Input power is 1.24kW so over a 1/3rd of the input
power goes has waste heat.

Kettles must be far better or they would melt, not having forced
cooling... Then of course you have the losses in an invertor and the
size of the battery required to store that amount of energy. Kettle of
a gene is probably OK provided you don't overload the gene.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:41:48 +0100, PoP wrote:

One thing to be very wary of in respect of cabling the suggested
solution, someone might decide to do some wiring work and start by
switching off at the consumer unit. By doing so they would assume
that all sockets in the house were dead.

Even if I pull out the main fuse and switch off the breaker I still
assume that everything is live until tested with a volt stick and even
then I check cautiously on first contact with tools/me.

If there are maintained circuits all the CU(s) should be labled with a
warning and each maintained outlet/fitting as well.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...

Just looked at the rating panel on our fairly recent Category E (800W
output) microwave. Input power is 1.24kW so over a 1/3rd of the input
power goes has waste heat.

Kettles must be far better or they would melt, not having forced
cooling...

They have water cooling though, and a fair heat capacity.

Method:
Cool kettle using several litres of tap water, measure
1 tea-cup of tap water into kettle, and time until bubbling
Cool kettle using several litres of tap water, measure
2 tea-cups of tap water into kettle, and time until bubbling

Results: 60s and 90s.

Conclusion: a microwave is just about as efficient for one
cup of tea, but slower.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 10:43:59 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Even if I pull out the main fuse and switch off the breaker I still
assume that everything is live until tested with a volt stick and even
then I check cautiously on first contact with tools/me.

The issue might be that it isn't you doing the work. It is very
dangerous constructing a potentially lethal installation which depends
significantly on being used and maintained by only one person, that
person having specialised knowledge.

What about if your house catches fire and the fire brigade have to
break in to deal with the situation? They would presumably try to
remove power from the building as part of their duty.

Also, as we've seen only too well in the recent past, you have a duty
of care for your armed burglars and could get sent to prison if you
dare put them in any danger

If there are maintained circuits all the CU(s) should be labled with a
warning and each maintained outlet/fitting as well.

Good plan. I was under the impression that UPS outlets were supposed
to be labelled appropriately anyway?

PoP

"Dave Liquorice" wrote
Owain wrote:
| My main difficulty is the tv.
|Who *needs* TV, there are such things as books, cards, board games
etc.

I don't enjoy or even have cards or board games, and reading is difficult in
insufficient light. The tv is a difficulty because the reception is outside
my control.

| I have a battery radio and tv (and a box of 20 D batteries I got
| cheap from government surplus)
|And their "Use by:" date is?

Well, I bought them in case bad things happened with the Millennium Bug :-)
But they still have electric in them because I have two torches running on
the same batch.

| I am also dependent on electric for cooking.
|Thats the one you really need to take care of. Get a small Camping Gaz
|stove.

Requires gas cylinder storage which isn't allowed in my flat. If the chippie
isn't open I guess I have to go to bed hungry :-( Unless I can beg off a
gas-cooker equipped neighbour.

Owain

In article , owain001
@stirlingcity.co.uk says...
"Dave Liquorice" wrote
Owain wrote:
| I am also dependent on electric for cooking.
|Thats the one you really need to take care of. Get a small Camping Gaz
|stove.

Requires gas cylinder storage which isn't allowed in my flat.

What exactly isn't allowed? I guess they don't allow lpg cylinders but
do they specify the small camping cylinders, Gaz, Coleman etc? You could
get a Trangia, meths stove, or a multifuel stove, take a look at Primus,
if your lease does excludes *all* gas cylinders. Just having the ability
to boil a kettle for two or three days is useful.

Colin

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Hello Andrew

AG| Last year, December 10th was almost... UK came with 3
AG| minutes of having to start load shedding (in the South East
AG| apparently) because not enough power was being generated to
AG| meet demand.

I bet they were glad when granny's kettle finally boiled.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:03:33 +0100, Colin Blackburn wrote:

Requires gas cylinder storage which isn't allowed in my flat.

What exactly isn't allowed? I guess they don't allow lpg cylinders
but do they specify the small camping cylinders, Gaz, Coleman etc?

I'd be surprised if camping gaz type gas clinders are excluded but it
does depend on the extact wording of the lease though. I should
imagine it's designed to stop the storeage of red/blue propane/butane
cylinders it may catch all compressed gas though. Wonder how they deal
with gas cigarette lighters?

You could get a Trangia, meths stove, or a multifuel stove, take a
look at Primus, if your lease does excludes *all* gas cylinders.

Agreed, which is worse a container of compressed gas, a container of
refined petrol (Coleman fuel is basically petrol), a container of
meths or a couple of boxes metahaldyed(sp!) solid fuel (not that you'd
want to use that inside it does pong a bit).

Just having the ability to boil a kettle for two or three days is
useful.

Almost essential, a hot drink, washing etc.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:09:26 +0100, Nick Finnigan wrote:

Kettles must be far better or they would melt, not having forced
cooling...

They have water cooling though,

Exactly most of the heat goes into the water not into waste hot air.

Conclusion: a microwave is just about as efficient for one
cup of tea, but slower.

Define "efficient".

To make a mug of water hot enough for a decent cup of tea in our
1.24kW input (Cat E, 800W output) uwave would take 2 mins. Our kettle
(2.9kW) will boil the same amount of water in 45s (just timed it).

uwave = (1240/60) * 2 = 40W
kettle = ((2900/60)/60) * 45 = 36.25W

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail