I have a loop-in lighting system and have recently had an extension
with lots of new rooms to decorate and add decent lights to. The
builders just installed basic ceiling roses with the plastic 8 slot
connectors plus metal earth connector.

I've ascertained how to wire up the new light fittings using connectors
so that I'm left with just the single Live and Neutral wires (plus the
earths). However, because there are up to 5 cables involved, there are
too many wires to fit into single connectors. I think I'm right in
saying that I could daisy-chain these connectors until I'm left with 1
wire for each - but I decided instead to remove the plastic connector
strip from the rose and re-use it as well as the separate metal
connector block from the rose for the earths.

I would have liked to have pushed this connector strip up above the
ceiling plasterboard, as well as the earth connector, but the hole in
the ceiling is not big enough. Rather than make a bigger hole, I left
these connectors below the ceiling and fitted them inside the recess of
the light fitting. I did insulate all connections with electrical tape.

Is what I have done acceptable, dangerous or somewhere in between? In
this particular case, the light fitting didn't have a transformer in
it, but I do have other lights to put up which do have one - should I
be more careful in this case about leaving the connectors inside the
light fitting?

I'm a newcomer to fitting lights with a loop-in system - so please be
gentle - although I did talk through what I was doing with someone with
electrical knowledge.

In article .com,
wrote:
I've ascertained how to wire up the new light fittings using connectors
so that I'm left with just the single Live and Neutral wires (plus the
earths). However, because there are up to 5 cables involved, there are
too many wires to fit into single connectors. I think I'm right in
saying that I could daisy-chain these connectors until I'm left with 1
wire for each - but I decided instead to remove the plastic connector
strip from the rose and re-use it as well as the separate metal
connector block from the rose for the earths.

Sounds like a dangerous bodge.

This type of ceiling rose is designed to accept:-
TW&E feed
TW&E loop to next fitting
TW&E switch pair
Twin flex to pendant.

All contained within a fire resistant enclosure.

If you don't want to use this method - say because of a non 'standard'
light fitting - you use proper junction box in the ceiling void.

Anything just insulated with tape and left dangling just won't do.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

Anything just insulated with tape and left dangling just won't do.

Oh, it'll do several things. Give you a nasty shock if you're groping
around under the floorboards, for a start.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

wrote:
I have a loop-in lighting system and have recently had an extension
with lots of new rooms to decorate and add decent lights to. The
builders just installed basic ceiling roses with the plastic 8 slot
connectors plus metal earth connector.

I've ascertained how to wire up the new light fittings using connectors
so that I'm left with just the single Live and Neutral wires (plus the
earths). However, because there are up to 5 cables involved, there are
too many wires to fit into single connectors.

Is what I have done acceptable, dangerous or somewhere in between?


how youve managed to have 5 cables in each fitting I cant imagine. On
this basis I have to wonder whats going on.


NT

how youve managed to have 5 cables in each fitting I cant imagine. On
this basis I have to wonder whats going on.

It's common enough.

Loop in, loop out, switch, lamp, slave lamp

You can have 6, if you loop out an extra point, or have multiple slaves in
star topology.

Christian.

On 4 May 2006 08:48:29 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

The
builders just installed basic ceiling roses with the plastic 8 slot
connectors plus metal earth connector.

Did they wire them up?

I've ascertained how to wire up the new light fittings using connectors
so that I'm left with just the single Live and Neutral wires (plus the
earths).

Presumably you have connected all the leads within the new fittings
to a terminal block.

However, because there are up to 5 cables involved, there are
too many wires to fit into single connectors.

That's a lot of cables. There should be four terminals to wire up a
light, live, neutral, earth and switched live. How many wires go to
each terminal depends on the layout.

I think I'm right in
saying that I could daisy-chain these connectors until I'm left with 1
wire for each - but I decided instead to remove the plastic connector
strip from the rose and re-use it as well as the separate metal
connector block from the rose for the earths.

Depending on the circumstances the best approach may be to leave the
existing ceiling rose wiring to look after itself and take the
switched live, neutral and earth to a terminal block that also has
the wires from the lamps in it. This might all fit in the enlarged
ceiling rose cover of some fancy light fittings.

I would have liked to have pushed this connector strip up above the
ceiling plasterboard, as well as the earth connector,

Doing so is illegal. Not only are you exposing people to a shock
hazard but there is a chance you may burn the house down as the
connections are not in a fire resistant enclosure.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Sounds like a dangerous bodge.

This type of ceiling rose is designed to accept:-
TW&E feed
TW&E loop to next fitting
TW&E switch pair
Twin flex to pendant.


All contained within a fire resistant enclosure.


If you don't want to use this method - say because of a non 'standard'
light fitting - you use proper junction box in the ceiling void.


Anything just insulated with tape and left dangling just won't do."

Thanks for the advice - I had my doubts which is why I asked. I have
read that using connectors and pushing these up into the ceiling void
was a common practice. From what you've said, I guess that this is
still unacceptable, unless you use a junction box?

I've left the rose connections exactly as fitted by the electrician, so
I assume there's no problem with these - but in taking the connector
strip out of the plastic case of the rose, I guess that's the problem?
The round plastic case is too big to fit into the recess of the new
light fitting, so that's why I can't use it.

The
builders just installed basic ceiling roses with the plastic 8 slot
connectors plus metal earth connector.


Did they wire them up?

Yes. And I've left this wiring exactly as it was because I've removed
the terminal block from the plastic rose case.



I've ascertained how to wire up the new light fittings using connectors
so that I'm left with just the single Live and Neutral wires (plus the
earths).


Presumably you have connected all the leads within the new fittings
to a terminal block?

I've used the Live and Neutral single wires from the rose terminal
block and these feed into another terminal block which came with the
new light fitting. I also fed a sleeved wire from the earth connector
block on the rose to the earth connector on the new fitting.

Depending on the circumstances the best approach may be to leave the
existing ceiling rose wiring to look after itself and take the
switched live, neutral and earth to a terminal block that also has
the wires from the lamps in it. This might all fit in the enlarged
ceiling rose cover of some fancy light fittings.

Well this is what I've tried to do - except the plastic case of the
original rose won't fit into the new light fitting, so I removed the
terminal block from it and used it without the case. The existing rose
wiring is therefore left as it was.

On 5 May 2006 04:12:20 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Well this is what I've tried to do - except the plastic case of the
original rose won't fit into the new light fitting, so I removed the
terminal block from it and used it without the case. The existing rose
wiring is therefore left as it was.

Do you mean the cover of the old rose, or the base which it screws
to and which contains the terminals, or both?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Apologies for my use of the terminology!

I can't use the cover or the base. Neither will fit into the recess of
the new light fitting. I removed the terminal block from the base, with
its wiring intact and retained this alone.

In article . com,
wrote:
Thanks for the advice - I had my doubts which is why I asked. I have
read that using connectors and pushing these up into the ceiling void
was a common practice.
It may well be, but still a bodge.

From what you've said, I guess that this is
still unacceptable, unless you use a junction box?

Yes.

I've left the rose connections exactly as fitted by the electrician, so
I assume there's no problem with these - but in taking the connector
strip out of the plastic case of the rose, I guess that's the problem?
The round plastic case is too big to fit into the recess of the new
light fitting, so that's why I can't use it.

It's a common problem. Personally, I'd force all makers of such things to
fit a loop in loop out connector system within their 'fancy' cover, since
pretty well all new homes come wired like this. Rather in the same way as
all appliance makers must fit plugs.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 5 May 2006 04:40:23 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

I can't use the cover or the base. Neither will fit into the recess of
the new light fitting. I removed the terminal block from the base, with
its wiring intact and retained this alone.

Then I would get hold of a small junction box for lighting circuits.
I would then remove one set of connections and connect all of these
to one terminal, then repeat this for the other three sets of
terminals, leaving a short length of twin and earth to feed the
light. Then I would put the junction box into the ceiling via an
enlarged hole and fasten it there with a short screw. Then I would
repair the hole and fit the new fitting.

This could have been avoided by getting the builders to wire up at a
junction box and just put in a drop for the fitting.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Fri, 05 May 2006 13:35:38 +0100 someone who may be "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote this:-

Personally, I'd force all makers of such things to
fit a loop in loop out connector system within their 'fancy' cover, since
pretty well all new homes come wired like this. Rather in the same way as
all appliance makers must fit plugs.

They would certainly complain that this made the fittings
non-standard and thus they could not use the same thing throughout
Europe.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Thanks for this David - very helpful.

To clarify - the terminal block in the junction box replaces the
8-terminal connector in the rose base?
In some cases will this will mean putting up to 5 wires into one
terminal? That was one of the reasons why I kept the original rose
connector because it has multiple connector terminals for live, neutral
and loop.

Is what I'll have to do demonstrated in this diagram:

http://www.userview.co.uk/loop3.html

ie go from 3A to 3B as per the diagrams in the link? If you can't get
all of the wires into the appropriate single terminal slot, what do you
do?

In article ,
David Hansen wrote:
Personally, I'd force all makers of such things to fit a loop in loop
out connector system within their 'fancy' cover, since pretty well all
new homes come wired like this. Rather in the same way as all appliance
makers must fit plugs.

They would certainly complain that this made the fittings
non-standard and thus they could not use the same thing throughout
Europe.

As does the fitting of a 13 amp plug?

I'm not really concerned about maker's objections. If they were allowed to
just do as they wish there would be far more dangerous fittings on the
market than now.

--
*No radio - Already stolen.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 05 May 2006 15:08:16 +0100 someone who may be "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote this:-

Personally, I'd force all makers of such things to fit a loop in loop
out connector system within their 'fancy' cover, since pretty well all
new homes come wired like this. Rather in the same way as all appliance
makers must fit plugs.

They would certainly complain that this made the fittings
non-standard and thus they could not use the same thing throughout
Europe.

As does the fitting of a 13 amp plug?

That involves no changes to the equipment itself, only the lead.
That even applies to power supplies, which have interchangeable
bottoms with the pins attached.

I'm not really concerned about maker's objections.

Tony would not agree with you.

I'm just the messenger.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 5 May 2006 07:06:59 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

To clarify - the terminal block in the junction box replaces the
8-terminal connector in the rose base?

There is no terminal block in the junction box. It has four
terminals, one for each of the functions I mentioned. If you get the
MK version it may have two terminals for each function, a good idea,
http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...1&rangeid=1002

In some cases will this will mean putting up to 5 wires into one
terminal?

That shouldn't be a great problem as the terminals have plenty of
space. However, I would question the number of wires for the reasons
others have given.

Is what I'll have to do demonstrated in this diagram:

http://www.userview.co.uk/loop3.html

Sort of. However, the junction box will not have that sort of
terminal block inside it.

If you can't get
all of the wires into the appropriate single terminal slot, what do you
do?

I think you will. If you can't then there are a number of mounting
boxes which the terminal block from the rose can be fitted into.

Cables should be clipped before they enter either sort of box, to
resist the cables being pulled out. A small hammer is useful to do
this.

You should find a joist by the hole in the ceiling, to which you can
fix things. That includes the new fitting.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
David Hansen wrote:
Personally, I'd force all makers of such things to fit a loop in
loop out connector system within their 'fancy' cover, since pretty
well all new homes come wired like this. Rather in the same way as
all appliance makers must fit plugs.

They would certainly complain that this made the fittings
non-standard and thus they could not use the same thing throughout
Europe.

As does the fitting of a 13 amp plug?

That involves no changes to the equipment itself, only the lead.

As would fitting a junction box. Pretty well the same as a plug. Could be
designed so it was moulded on too.

That even applies to power supplies, which have interchangeable
bottoms with the pins attached.

I'm not really concerned about maker's objections.

Tony would not agree with you.

I'm just the messenger.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 05 May 2006 16:41:36 +0100 someone who may be "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote this:-

That involves no changes to the equipment itself, only the lead.

As would fitting a junction box. Pretty well the same as a plug. Could be
designed so it was moulded on too.

As we all know, many of these fittings don't have any sort of
junction box. Some may have a terminal block fitted to the end of
the wires, others don't. One could argue that they should all have a
junction box moulded in, with four terminals. However, I don't think
the manufacturers would be keen on changing their designs in such a
dramatic fashion.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
David Hansen wrote:
As would fitting a junction box. Pretty well the same as a plug. Could be
designed so it was moulded on too.

As we all know, many of these fittings don't have any sort of
junction box. Some may have a terminal block fitted to the end of
the wires, others don't. One could argue that they should all have a
junction box moulded in, with four terminals. However, I don't think
the manufacturers would be keen on changing their designs in such a
dramatic fashion.

No manufacturer is keen on doing anything that might cost in production.
Like fitting a plug - the same arguments were trotted out then.

However, given the number of times this sort of question comes up on here
about replacing a loop in loop out box with a fitting which doesn't
include a proper terminal block, and the stories of lights being on with
the switch off and the fuse blowing when its switched on it's a pretty
common problem. Usually fixed by bodging.

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

If you can't get
all of the wires into the appropriate single terminal slot, what do you
do?


I think you will. If you can't then there are a number of mounting
boxes which the terminal block from the rose can be fitted into.

Cables should be clipped before they enter either sort of box, to
resist the cables being pulled out. A small hammer is useful to do
this.


You should find a joist by the hole in the ceiling, to which you can
fix things. That includes the new fitting.

Would it be safe to follow this method but use a plastic choc box to
contain the terminal block from the rose, and fix this to the joist?