About Us

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

Thanks.
Phil

Quote:

This is a reply to your email regarding the UK.D-I-Y FAQ site:

For a speedy reply always ensure there is a relevant Subject line in
place of the text that says "UK DIY FAQ Please type a topic here". Thank
you.

If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

How do I Ask Questions or Give Answers?
=======================================

Asking Questions
================

First study the FAQ (Frequently Asked/Answered Questions) at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ to see if your question is covered.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, check the uk.d-i-y archive by
doing an "Advanced Groups Search". Click the following link (it should
appear all on one line)
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanc...group:uk.d-i-y, and type
your search keywords in the appropriate boxes, then click "Google
Search". If you want to widen your search beyond discussions on
uk.d-i-y, just delete uk.d-i-y from the Newsgroup box. Also, specifying
dates in the "Return messages posted between" boxes can narrow the date
range searched.

If the answer still eludes you then there's a good chance that someone
with extensive knowledge will respond to a courteous question posted in
the uk.d-i-y newsgroup. Since their reply will be made in the newsgroup
their words of wisdom will be shared with a large audience and will
therefore benefit more people.

Contributors to the FAQ and the newsgroup prefer to answer questions by
posting to the newsgroup and may not respond to direct email, indeed
they may well be annoyed by it. If you have a question, first try to get
an answer by posting your question to the uk.d-i-y newsgroup. Others
readers will then have the benefit of the Question and Answer too, and
you will probably get a range of replies. In the event that you do not
get a useful response from the newsgroup, you could try a direct email
to the FAQ Maintainer. However, you will only receive this standard
reply unless you point out that you tried to ask on the newsgroup first.
The FAQ Maintainer is not an expert in all topics but may be able to
point you in the right direction.

Give some background information about what you are trying to achieve,
and if the question is about specific hardware include as much
information as possible, such as make, model, ancillary equipment etc.,
and what you have tried so far. It is helpful to give some idea of your
competence in the area, as this will affect the kind of answer you get.
Isolated questions with no background often do not attract useful
answers. Make sure that the Subject line of your question is accurate
and to the point. Do not use an all-purpose Subject line like "Help", or
"Urgent - No heat".

Note that no answers come with guarantees! You are responsible for your
own actions even if based on advice. However, several people usually
look at replies posted to the group and poor or inaccurate advice is
generally challenged or corrected.

When your question has been answered, a short response thanking those
who gave useful or potentially useful advice is nice. The lack of this
seriously reduces your chance of getting a response to future queries. A
later follow up, to tell us the outcome, is also nice.

Answering Question posted by others
===================================

You should not send direct email in response to questions posted on the
newsgroups, unless the poster specifically asks for email replies, as
this excludes others from the benefit of your contribution.
Occasionally there will be reasons why someone will post but not be able
to access replies on the newsgroup, and then they will ask for email. If
you do send a direct email, don't forget to post a copy to the
newsgroup. Many people find it irritating to get email, possibly having
responded to it, only to later read the identical material on the
newsgroup. Be assured that any answer you post to the newsgroup will be
read - the duplication is unnecessary.

How to Access the uk.d-i-y Newsgroup
====================================

An easy way is to use the Google facilities. Click this link
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y and when you reach the
Google Groups page, click "Sign-In" or "Join".

Once signed in, click the "Start a new topic " link to post your
question to the group (also known as a forum), then check back later to
see if you have had any replies.

Alternatively, you can use a more specialised 'newsreader' and a good
starting point is to go to the http://www.newsreaders.com/ or
http://www.newsreaders.com/web/index.html website.

But first...

Make sure your browser is set to send plain text, not an HTML
(web-based) message. Non-text or binary images are not allowed. Do not
use any special effects, not even bold or coloured fonts. These will not
come out on the posted message, and may even be illegible.

If you have use of a personal web site you can upload any photos or
images there and just put the link address in your message.

If you want to include an 'ASCII' diagram, use a fixed width font such
as Courier, otherwise it will not come out right for other readers. It's
a good idea to prefix such diagrams with a note to your reader to tell
them to 'switch to a fixed width font', too.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

Thanks.
Phil

[quote]

This is a reply to your email regarding the UK.D-I-Y FAQ site:

For a speedy reply always ensure there is a relevant Subject line in
place of the text that says "UK DIY FAQ Please type a topic here". Thank
you.

If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

Looks fine to me, Phil.

--

..andy

In ,
Andy Hall scribed:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

Thanks.
Phil

[quote]

This is a reply to your email regarding the UK.D-I-Y FAQ site:

For a speedy reply always ensure there is a relevant Subject line in
place of the text that says "UK DIY FAQ Please type a topic here". Thank
you.

If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

Looks fine to me, Phil.

A weighty tome, indeed. However, I sincerely doubt anyone with the
intellectual stamina to plough through that lot is gonna be reading it in
the first place?

Nigel

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:47:37 GMT, in uk.d-i-y "nrh"
wrote:

In ,
Andy Hall scribed:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

Thanks.
Phil

[quote]

This is a reply to your email regarding the UK.D-I-Y FAQ site:

For a speedy reply always ensure there is a relevant Subject line in
place of the text that says "UK DIY FAQ Please type a topic here". Thank
you.

If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

Looks fine to me, Phil.

A weighty tome, indeed. However, I sincerely doubt anyone with the
intellectual stamina to plough through that lot is gonna be reading it in
the first place?

That's one of the problems. I was hoping the more erudite might come up
with a more compact version.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

In ,
Phil Addison scribed:

That's one of the problems. I was hoping the more erudite might come up
with a more compact version.

Then I vote that we should invite Tournifreak and John Cartmell to another
'duel' of words. This time to see how *little* each can write by producing a
synopsis of your proforma. The winner can have the laurels for providing the
best rationale for debunking the theory of evolution. (I think!) ;-)

Nigel

Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:47:37 GMT, in uk.d-i-y "nrh"
wrote:

A weighty tome, indeed. However, I sincerely doubt anyone with the
intellectual stamina to plough through that lot is gonna be reading it in
the first place?

That's one of the problems. I was hoping the more erudite might come up
with a more compact version.

Phil

Oy! you callin me erudite???

I thought I'd give it a go as I'm famous for terseness.
..
..
..

Dear Enquirer,

Please post all DIY enquiries in the uk.d-i-y newsgroup. There are
valid reasons why most contributors will not answer enquiries
privately.

To read the uk.d-i-y FAQ:
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

To search the newsgroup archive for already written answers:
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanc...group:uk.d-i-y

To read newsgroups:
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y/

To access newsgroups fully: there are many portals available to use. To
use most news feeds you will need a news program. If you dont have one,
see:
http://www.newsreaders.com/

The Google newsgroup website needs no such softwa
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y
when you reach the Google Groups page, click "Sign-In" or "Join".

Regards, uk.d-i-y FAQ team.

NT

In oups.com,
scribed:
Phil Addison wrote:

I thought I'd give it a go as I'm famous for terseness.

Dear Enquirer,

Please post all DIY enquiries in the uk.d-i-y newsgroup. There are
valid reasons why most contributors will not answer enquiries
privately.

To read the uk.d-i-y FAQ:
snipped

Regards, uk.d-i-y FAQ team.

Pithy indeed. Gets my thumb! ;-)

Nigel.

Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

snip
If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Please only mail me if you find errors or have contributions for the FAQ.

?

In ,
Ian Stirling scribed:
Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

snip
If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Please only mail me if you find errors or have contributions for the FAQ.

?

lol
Now that *is* terse!

N.

On 28 Jan 2006 13:08:13 GMT, Ian Stirling wrote:

|Andy Hall wrote:
| On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
| wrote:
|
|I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
|today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
|answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
|back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
|reply and to that end I have put the following text together.
|
|snip
|If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
|me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
|uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
|there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
|the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
|how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.
|
|I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.
|
|If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet

|Please only mail me if you find errors or have contributions for the FAQ.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Please quote, with quote
character, previous post sniped to only the bit you are replying to.
Threads often contain 100s of posts dozens layers deep. Other people
use different newsreaders, they do not see or do what you see and do.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:50:43 GMT, in uk.d-i-y "nrh"
wrote:

In ,
Ian Stirling scribed:
Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

snip
If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Please only mail me if you find errors or have contributions for the FAQ.

?

lol
Now that *is* terse!

N.

Well, the above have cut it to the bone, some even more so.

I want to retain a degree of friendliness, bearing in mind that those
that email me do so because they (a) have a real problem (b) have never
heard of usenet and (c) need hand-holding if they are to reach us here.

So perhaps a little less terse?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:38:16 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

| On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
| wrote:
|
|I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.
|
|If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet

That implies you know of some better ways for newbies. Care to share
them?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Phil Addison wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:50:43 GMT, in uk.d-i-y "nrh"
wrote:

In ,
Ian Stirling scribed:
Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

snip
If possible ask your question on the uk.d-i-y newsgroup before mailing
me - I am *not* the FAQ, just the editor (see "How to Access the
uk.d-i-y Newsgroup" below). In the unlikely event that you have no luck
there, email me again and I will try to give advice, although I am only
the site maintainer and not an expert in all topics. If you do not know
how to access the newsgroup please study the following advice.

I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Please only mail me if you find errors or have contributions for the FAQ.

Well, the above have cut it to the bone, some even more so.

I want to retain a degree of friendliness, bearing in mind that those
that email me do so because they (a) have a real problem (b) have never
heard of usenet and (c) need hand-holding if they are to reach us here.

So perhaps a little less terse?

"
I'm the FAQs editor, and arn't a DIY expert, so if you have other
questions then the best place for you to find the answers is
the usenet group(link to google)uk.d-i-y, where this FAQ began,
and where you can contact most of the contributors.

Alternatively, see the 'further help' section.

Mail me if you find errors or have contributions. Thanks!
"

Phil Addison wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:38:16 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

| On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
| wrote:
|
|I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.
|
|If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.

Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet

That implies you know of some better ways for newbies. Care to share
them?

Phil

maybe he means diybanter

NT

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:10:14 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

|On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:38:16 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| | On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
| | wrote:
| |
| |I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.
| |
| |If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.
|
| Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet
|
|That implies you know of some better ways for newbies. Care to share
|them?

I would not wish Google Groups on my worst enemy.
Even a newbie deserves better.

"uk.d-i-y which you may access with any newsreader and a pop3 account"
There are enough clues there to lead a newbie to something half way
reasonable.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Please quote, with quote
character, previous post sniped to only the bit you are replying to.
Threads often contain 100s of posts dozens layers deep. Other people
use different newsreaders, they do not see or do what you see and do.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Phil Addison wrote:

So perhaps a little less terse?

I'm the FAQs editor, and arn't a DIY expert, so if you have other
questions then the best place for you to find the answers is
the usenet group(link to google)uk.d-i-y, where this FAQ began,
and where you can contact most of the contributors.

Alternatively, see the 'further help' section.

Mail me if you find errors or have contributions. Thanks!

I quite agree, no point in sending a stonking great email out to these
punters; bear in mind that in emailing the FAQ maintainer they've
already gone straight past a big sign in the FAQ saying 'don't email in
queries'...!

Suggest the brief reply contains a deep-link back to the bit of the FAQ
which explains how to ask a question?

If were the editor I'd go further and have all email sent to
editor@whateveritis responded to automatically with a brief message like
the above, but include a 'real' monitored email address where they can
still contact you of they really need or want to - that would hopefully
cut down dramatically on the drossy enquiries.

David

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:10:14 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

|On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:38:16 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Dave Fawthrop
wrote:
|
| | On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
| | wrote:
| |
| |I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.
| |
| |If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to google)uk.d-i-y.
|
| Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet
|
|That implies you know of some better ways for newbies. Care to share
|them?

I would not wish Google Groups on my worst enemy.
Even a newbie deserves better.

"uk.d-i-y which you may access with any newsreader and a pop3 account"
There are enough clues there to lead a newbie to something half way
reasonable.

You're joking, right - do you think a real newbie will know what a
newsreader is? Or even what the whole concept of 'news' or 'usenet' is.
And Pop3? All double-dutch!

I think by all means mention newsreaders etc, but definitely leave the
link to Google groups. Their interface is actually a hell of a lot
better than it used to be, and what's more they seem to have finally
cottoned about threading, so it doesn't bugger up threads for everyone else.

David

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:56:40 +0000, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

"uk.d-i-y which you may access with any newsreader and a pop3 account"

er - what's having a pop3 account go to do with Usenet?

--
Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:33:44 GMT, Geoffrey
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:56:40 +0000, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

"uk.d-i-y which you may access with any newsreader and a pop3 account"

er - what's having a pop3 account go to do with Usenet?
^t

--
Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side.

Phil Addison wrote:
I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

I should put something short and to the point up, for instance:

DO NOT E-MAIL ) WITH D-I-Y QUESTIONS - SEND THESE
TO UK.D-I-Y. ANY D-I-Y-RELATED QUESTION ADDRESSED TO (..) WILL
BE DELETED UNREAD.

Lobster wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:10:14 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:38:16 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

I just edit the FAQ, and am not an expert in all topics.

If you can't find the answer in the FAQ, ask on (link to
google)uk.d-i-y.

Ouch! No! Google is absolutely the worst way of accessing usenet

That implies you know of some better ways for newbies. Care to share
them?

I would not wish Google Groups on my worst enemy.
Even a newbie deserves better.

"uk.d-i-y which you may access with any newsreader and a pop3
account"
There are enough clues there to lead a newbie to something half way
reasonable.

You're joking, right - do you think a real newbie will know what a
newsreader is? Or even what the whole concept of 'news' or 'usenet'
is. And Pop3? All double-dutch!

Hmm, well how did the rest of us manage when we were all newbies and
before the Google Groups was a even a twinkle in anyone's eye? The Pop3
bit is just a bit double-dutch though :-)

I think by all means mention newsreaders etc, but definitely leave the
link to Google groups.

Well said!

Their interface is actually a hell of a lot
better than it used to be, and what's more they seem to have finally
cottoned about threading, so it doesn't bugger up threads for
everyone else.

But still the google groups people tend sometimes not to quote the bit
they are replying to, which is confusing for everyone else.

--
Holly, in France
Gite to let in Dordogne, now with pool.
http://la-plaine.chez-alice.fr

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:59:36 GMT, in uk.d-i-y Phil Addison
wrote:

I am getting an increasing number of queries emailed directly to me (two
today), in spite of admonitions on the FAQ site not to. Sometimes I can
answer these questions easily enough, but for the majority I refer them
back to the newsgroup. This has become common enough to need a standard
reply and to that end I have put the following text together.

I'd appreciate any comments, suggestions, improvements.

Thanks.
Phil

Thanks everyone that made suggestions. It looks as if a shorter version
is desirable so I'll have another look at it.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

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