I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

MM

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury,

Electricity is largely generated from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

and with oil one does at least have the competition between local
suppliers.

There are many suppliers of gas, so you do have a choice of supplier.

Christian.

MM wrote:

a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

Given that gas was a quarter of the price of electricity to start with,
it still ought ot be cheaper even at double the price. Remember also
that many of the power stations are gas fired, so you can expect price
rises to knock on there as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"MM" wrote in message
...
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

flash wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
...
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

Although we've not done detailed sums it definitely feels cheaper to
us to heat water overnight using economy 7. If you're clever you get
other savings as well by running dishwasher and washing machine
overnight.

--
Chris Green

MM wrote:
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

MM

I think you worry too much.

MBQ

flash wrote:

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

With E7 you often pay a bit more during day rate, which can cancel out
the saving.
With E7 you're heating the water many hours before its wanted, so use
more energy to compensate for cooling later on.

E7 is not generally competitive.


NT

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:06:39 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury,

Electricity is largely generated from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

and with oil one does at least have the competition between local
suppliers.

There are many suppliers of gas, so you do have a choice of supplier.

Dunno about 'many'. In any case, nowhere as many as with oil
suppliers.

MM

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:14:47 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

MM wrote:

a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

Given that gas was a quarter of the price of electricity to start with,
it still ought ot be cheaper even at double the price. Remember also
that many of the power stations are gas fired, so you can expect price
rises to knock on there as well.

So oil is looking even better! (I can remember when the general view
was that gas was the cheapest by far and oil was very expensive,
although perhaps not as expensive as leccy.)

MM

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:30:51 -0000, "flash"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

For heating water overnight E7 is surely most economical, but what if
someone wants a bath in the evening? Is the water going to be hot
enough by then? I don't like the idea of E7 either for night storage
heaters, which, in my experience, belch out enough heat to compete
with the devil early on, then get progressively colder throughout the
day.

MM

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:48:19 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

flash wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
...
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

Although we've not done detailed sums it definitely feels cheaper to
us to heat water overnight using economy 7. If you're clever you get
other savings as well by running dishwasher and washing machine
overnight.

How does it work with E7? Can I just request it from the leccy
supplier, or do I have to have a separate meter and wires?

MM

On 19 Jan 2006 05:01:01 -0800, wrote:


MM wrote:
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

MM

I think you worry too much.

Certainly. Panic attacks, anxiety attacks, depression - tell me about
it! Worry is the least of my worries. And what's your magic bullet?
(Actually, scrub the word 'bullet'.)

MM

MM wrote:
[ snip ]


Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.

"Chris Bacon" wrote :
MM wrote:
[ snip ]


Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.


To use your very own words:

"IMO to try and control this group by posting stuff like
this is itself an unwelcome abuse."

Steve S

"MM" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:30:51 -0000, "flash"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am
trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

For heating water overnight E7 is surely most economical, but what if
someone wants a bath in the evening? Is the water going to be hot
enough by then?

We heat the water twice a day and the E7 runs up to 8am so I was thinking of
using E7 for the mornings hot water and then oil for the second hot water
run of the day in the evening.

The thing i was pondering though is since I have the boiler on anyway to
heat the house in the morning - would it use that much more oil if it had to
heat the water as well?

What would be useful is some idea of the amount of each type of fuel used to
heat say 100 litres of water, though I guess this would vary enormously from
appliance to appliance.

MM wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:48:19 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

flash wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
...
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

Although we've not done detailed sums it definitely feels cheaper to
us to heat water overnight using economy 7. If you're clever you get
other savings as well by running dishwasher and washing machine
overnight.

How does it work with E7? Can I just request it from the leccy
supplier, or do I have to have a separate meter and wires?

It's usually a change of meter, not a separate circuit (like it used
to be I believe). You just get two readings, one 'peak rate' for the
electricity you consume from 0700 to midnight and the other for 'cheap
rate' for the units you consume from midnight to 0700. (Times may
vary according to supplier and accuracy of clock).

--
Chris Green

wrote:
MM wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:48:19 +0000 (UTC), wrote:


flash wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
m...

I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.


Although we've not done detailed sums it definitely feels cheaper to
us to heat water overnight using economy 7. If you're clever you get
other savings as well by running dishwasher and washing machine
overnight.

How does it work with E7? Can I just request it from the leccy
supplier, or do I have to have a separate meter and wires?


It's usually a change of meter, not a separate circuit (like it used
to be I believe). You just get two readings, one 'peak rate' for the
electricity you consume from 0700 to midnight and the other for 'cheap
rate' for the units you consume from midnight to 0700. (Times may
vary according to supplier and accuracy of clock).


I think the clock gets its time from the Rugby transmitter.

No, either just a mechanical clock or switch on / off from extra
signals added to Radio 4 longwave.

Steve S wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote :
MM wrote:
[ snip ]
Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.

To use your very own words:

"IMO to try and control this group by posting stuff like
this is itself an unwelcome abuse."

Oh, bum. You have caught me out. However, I can only say
in mitigation that there's a difference between a FAQ
masquerading as a Charter endorsed by all, and my futile
attempts to prevent uk.d-i-y being submerged beneath a
tide of frightful old tittle-tattle and stuff that's
meaningless from a DIY perspective.

Now I will go off and have a cup of coffee and reflect
upon the economic situation in China and its relevance
to the world of quality cheap tools.

Chris Bacon wrote:
MM wrote:
[ snip ]


Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.

Take your own advice, killfile the posters you object to or just don't
bother tro read the thread.

MBQ

wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
MM wrote:
[ snip ]
Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.

Take your own advice, killfile the posters you object to or just don't
bother tro read the thread.

Using a killfile just masks the cause. If someone was
dumping rubbish in your front garden, you'd object,
I assume, rather than averting your gaze as you walk
up the garden path. Would it be acceptable to cross-
post here from a few high-volume groups, on the grounds
that something vaguely relevant to DIY might sometimes
appear? I don't think so.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what
about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater.

Electricity is still around 3 to 4 time more expensive per kW than gas.

Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury,

Not yet.

Electricity is largely generated
from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

No, From coal. The reason we are running out of gas is that Thatcher
allowed private companies to use cheaper gas to generate electricity when
privatising the industry, in order to encourage them and get rid of the coal
industry out of sheer spite. The 'Dash fro Gas', it was called. Coal mines
with many years of coal in them closed down. If coal was used to generate
electricity and gas reserved for domestic and some industry, then we would
not be in the situation we are now in.

We are now short of gas, and looking to Russia for unreliable supplies, and
looking at building more nuclear plants so we are not held to ransom by the
likes of Russia.

and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local
suppliers.

There are many suppliers of gas, so you do have a choice of supplier.

Christian.

wrote in message
oups.com...
flash wrote:

I would be interested in some figures on this sort of thing as I am
trying
to work out whether it is cheaper to heat my water overnight using oil or
economy 7.

With E7 you often pay a bit more during
day rate, which can cancel out
the saving. With E7 you're heating the
water many hours before its wanted, so use
more energy to compensate for cooling later on.

E7 is not generally competitive.

It can be using a large thermal store that serves enough for all day, low
temp underfloor heating and a heavy insulation and making the house
air-tight.

Electricity is largely generated
from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

No, From coal.

Largely gas these days. Coal is much worse than gas for global warming.
Better that it stays in the ground. The switch from coal to gas is largely
responsible for the UK's reasonable record on CO2 emissions.

industry out of sheer spite. The 'Dash fro Gas', it was called. Coal
mines
with many years of coal in them closed down. If coal was used to generate
electricity and gas reserved for domestic and some industry, then we would
not be in the situation we are now in.

So you agree it is largely gas, then!

The sooner we run out of fossil fuels, the better. Imminent running out
leads to greater investment in alternatives and means we still might have a
planet left before it happens.

Christian.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:09:54 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what
about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater.

Electricity is still around 3 to 4 time more expensive per kW than gas.

Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury,

Not yet.

Electricity is largely generated
from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

No, From coal. The reason we are running out of gas is that Thatcher
allowed private companies to use cheaper gas to generate electricity when
privatising the industry, in order to encourage them and get rid of the coal
industry out of sheer spite. The 'Dash fro Gas', it was called. Coal mines
with many years of coal in them closed down. If coal was used to generate
electricity and gas reserved for domestic and some industry, then we would
not be in the situation we are now in.

We are now short of gas, and looking to Russia for unreliable supplies, and
looking at building more nuclear plants so we are not held to ransom by the
likes of Russia.

While Thatcher is still - just - alive, can we not deliver a sack of
coal to her door and suggest she expresses some regret?

MM

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:36:39 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
MM wrote:
[ snip ]
Not *ANOTHER* OT thread that's descending into a lot of old-
womanish banter and griping. STFU, or go somewhere appropriate.

Take your own advice, killfile the posters you object to or just don't
bother tro read the thread.

Using a killfile just masks the cause. If someone was
dumping rubbish in your front garden, you'd object,
I assume, rather than averting your gaze as you walk
up the garden path. Would it be acceptable to cross-
post here from a few high-volume groups, on the grounds
that something vaguely relevant to DIY might sometimes
appear? I don't think so.

Crikey! Sounds like somebody has got out of bed on the wrong side
this morning!

Moan moan moan moan moan

MM

MM wrote:
Moan moan moan moan moan

You are Mary Fisher in disguise, or Ophelia. Please donate your
free AOLs, LOLs, and all tittle-tattle to alt.dev.null.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
Electricity is largely generated
from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

No, From coal.

Largely gas these days. Coal is much worse than gas for global warming.
Better that it stays in the ground. The switch from coal to gas is largely
responsible for the UK's reasonable record on CO2 emissions.

http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=379

40% from coal the biggest single fuel.

industry out of sheer spite. The 'Dash fro Gas', it was called. Coal
mines
with many years of coal in them closed down. If coal was used to
generate
electricity and gas reserved for domestic and some industry, then we
would
not be in the situation we are now in.

So you agree it is largely gas, then!

No. they squandered gas needlessly, when they knew the supply was limited.
Coal could have been used only for power generation, and burned cleanly with
new technology. The coal is now under the ground and unable to be extracted
again. Wasted. 20 years ago the government could have insisted in high
insulation levels to reduce consumption of energy. It is no secret. We are
now paying the price for the wasting Thatcher years.

The sooner we run out of fossil fuels,
the better. Imminent running out
leads to greater investment in
alternatives and means we still might have a
planet left before it happens.

You might be right. But in the meantime how many die of cold related
illness? Hypothermia, etc, untill it is all sorted.

No, From coal. The reason we are running out of gas is that Thatcher
allowed private companies to use cheaper gas to generate electricity when
privatising the industry, in order to encourage them and get rid of the coal
industry out of sheer spite. The 'Dash fro Gas', it was called. Coal mines
with many years of coal in them closed down. If coal was used to generate
electricity and gas reserved for domestic and some industry, then we would
not be in the situation we are now in.

The coal is still there, if it was cost effective to go and get it they
will. And when Gas prices itself more then coal, mining will be a
renewed industry.....

Might I remind the Hon member that Mrs T has been out of government for
a very long time now. The present incumbent has been there for quite
some time but hasn't really done that much for the coal industry has
he?...

--
Tony Sayer

Coal could have been used only for power generation, and burned cleanly with
new technology. The coal is now under the ground and unable to be extracted
again. Wasted.


What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...


20 years ago the government could have insisted in high
insulation levels to reduce consumption of energy. It is no secret. We are
now paying the price for the wasting Thatcher years.

In the last 10 years nu laber could have done something but they havent
have they?...

--
Tony Sayer

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:09:54 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

Electricity is largely generated
from natural gas anyway, so is also rising.

No, From coal.


http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/inform/...nds/dec_05.pdf

For Quarter 3 2005, the latest available figures available from the
DTI.

Page 15, Chart 5.2

44.4% Gas
25.4% Coal
21.4% Nuclear
6.6% Oil, Renewable's and Other
2.2% Imports

So, that will be from gas then.


--

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:43:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...

Because most mines are now either flooded, filled in or subsided.

Coal mining is a dangerous business - mines are more than just holes
in the ground. They go a hell of a long way down, a hell of a long
way out, and are very complex affairs. Generations took that kind of
work, and its inevitable dangers, for granted. That tradition was
destroyed forever by Thatcher. Though substantial deposits were left
and coal remains a viable fuel with appropriate technology.

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days. I'm not sure even the expertise
would still be readily available in any great quantity, let alone a
workforce.

John

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:25:38 +0000, John wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:43:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...

Because most mines are now either flooded, filled in or subsided.

Coal mining is a dangerous business - mines are more than just holes
in the ground. They go a hell of a long way down, a hell of a long
way out, and are very complex affairs. Generations took that kind of
work, and its inevitable dangers, for granted. That tradition was
destroyed forever by Thatcher.

The main tradition that was destroyed was the industrial anarchy.

Though substantial deposits were left
and coal remains a viable fuel with appropriate technology.

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days.

I am quite sure that when the price point of other fuels reaches a
certain value, this will happen, provided that there are not cheaper
imports from elsewhere such as China.

There will be suitable technology and pay levels sufficient to attract
people to do the work. It's simply a question of what the figure is.


I'm not sure even the expertise
would still be readily available in any great quantity, let alone a
workforce.


I am quite sure that that will be forthcoming as well.


--

..andy

In article , John
writes
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:43:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...

Because most mines are now either flooded, filled in or subsided.

Coal mining is a dangerous business - mines are more than just holes
in the ground. They go a hell of a long way down, a hell of a long
way out, and are very complex affairs. Generations took that kind of
work, and its inevitable dangers, for granted. That tradition was
destroyed forever by Thatcher.

Yes, seems she's spoilt us..

Though substantial deposits were left
and coal remains a viable fuel with appropriate technology.


Right..

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days. I'm not sure even the expertise
would still be readily available in any great quantity, let alone a
workforce.


How do other countries manage then???....
John


--
Tony Sayer

John wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:43:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...

Because most mines are now either flooded, filled in or subsided.

Coal mining is a dangerous business - mines are more than just holes
in the ground. They go a hell of a long way down, a hell of a long
way out, and are very complex affairs. Generations took that kind of
work, and its inevitable dangers, for granted. That tradition was
destroyed forever by Thatcher. Though substantial deposits were left
and coal remains a viable fuel with appropriate technology.

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days. I'm not sure even the expertise
would still be readily available in any great quantity, let alone a
workforce.

We do what we always do and allow in immigrants who have a stronger
work ethic than us.

MBQ

MM wrote:
On 19 Jan 2006 05:01:01 -0800, wrote:


MM wrote:
I've just heard that Phoenix Natural Gas in Northern Ireland is
raising prices again, this time by 17%. The price was raised 30% in
Septmber, so that costs will have gone up by more than 50% in four
months. The General Consumer Council said it was "appalling" and a
"severe blow". (BBC)

Surely oil must now be cheaper? But what about electricity? E.g. using
a thermostatically controlled fan heater. Gas seems now to be an
extortionate luxury, and with oil one does at least have the
competition between local suppliers.

MM

I think you worry too much.

Certainly. Panic attacks, anxiety attacks, depression - tell me about
it! Worry is the least of my worries. And what's your magic bullet?
(Actually, scrub the word 'bullet'.)


I just tell myself "S**t happens, I'd better deal with it".

MBQ

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:25:38 +0000, John wrote:

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days. I'm not sure even the expertise
would still be readily available in any great quantity, let alone a
workforce.

How about using robots? In the last 20 years, robot technology has
greatly improved, and industrial robots are used everywhere today.
That way, it wouldn't matter so much if a roof collapse happened, as
any trapped robots could just be abandoned, a bit like the chunnel
drilling machines.

MM

Andy Hall wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:25:38 +0000, John wrote:


On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:43:13 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:


What an odd approach!. As I understand it its been there for some
million odd years or so, how come 20 odd years will spoil it?...

Because most mines are now either flooded, filled in or subsided.

Coal mining is a dangerous business - mines are more than just holes
in the ground. They go a hell of a long way down, a hell of a long
way out, and are very complex affairs. Generations took that kind of
work, and its inevitable dangers, for granted. That tradition was
destroyed forever by Thatcher.


The main tradition that was destroyed was the industrial anarchy.


Though substantial deposits were left
and coal remains a viable fuel with appropriate technology.

Starting up new pits, even draining and re-starting old ones, would be
a colossally expensive business, even if we could get people to go
down there, which I doubt these days.


I am quite sure that when the price point of other fuels reaches a
certain value, this will happen, provided that there are not cheaper
imports from elsewhere such as China.

There will be suitable technology and pay levels sufficient to attract
people to do the work. It's simply a question of what the figure is.

Would make a great replacement for the ASBO methinks

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:38:09 +0000, Richard Conway
wrote:



There will be suitable technology and pay levels sufficient to attract
people to do the work. It's simply a question of what the figure is.

Would make a great replacement for the ASBO methinks


Absolutely.

--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:38:09 +0000, Richard Conway
wrote:



There will be suitable technology and pay levels sufficient to attract
people to do the work. It's simply a question of what the figure is.

Would make a great replacement for the ASBO methinks



Absolutely.


In fact, why wait for the gas prices to rise?