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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Corner bead router cutter
I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings but can only find
ones in which the groove is a flat bottomed trench rather than a V which I would prefer. Can anyone advise please. Rob |
#2
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Corner bead router cutter
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#3
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Corner bead router cutter
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
This is the type of one of the bits in the Aldi set which I think you're after? http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/tren.../11_3hss.jpg-- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
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#5
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Corner bead router cutter
david lang wrote:
wrote: I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings but can only find ones in which the groove is a flat bottomed trench rather than a V which I would prefer. Can anyone advise please. What? Define corner beads, facings and a 'V' and we might have some idea of which you speak. Dave Its quite simple he wants to cut 'V' shaped channels in some wood architrave so it'll give a fancy appearence rather than a flat dull looking one. :-) -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
#6
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Corner bead router cutter
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings but can only find ones in which the groove is a flat bottomed trench rather than a V which I would prefer. Can anyone advise please. Its quite simple he wants to cut 'V' shaped channels in some wood architrave so it'll give a fancy appearence rather than a flat dull looking one. :-) So where does the corner bead come in, and what is the bit about flat bottoms M'Lud? Dave |
#7
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Corner bead router cutter
wrote:
I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings but can only find ones in which the groove is a flat bottomed trench rather than a V which I would prefer. Can anyone advise please. Still no sure of which you speak, but have a look here http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/profinder.asp If Trend ain't not got one - give up! Dave |
#8
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Corner bead router cutter
david lang wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote: I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings but can only find ones in which the groove is a flat bottomed trench rather than a V which I would prefer. Can anyone advise please. Its quite simple he wants to cut 'V' shaped channels in some wood architrave so it'll give a fancy appearence rather than a flat dull looking one. :-) So where does the corner bead come in, and what is the bit about flat bottoms M'Lud? Dave It does'nt he's tried to express it and used the wrong word "bead" = "channel", the flat bottom is what you get when using a fluted straight bit, a runner channel if you like. -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
#9
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Corner bead router cutter
On 18 Nov 2005 14:46:01 -0800, "
wrote: I'm wanting to put corner beads onto some facings Use a scratch stock (or make or yourself). Routers, by their nature, will never cut as sharp a vee as a linear cutter. |
#10
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Corner bead router cutter
Little disappointed that I'm having to define a 'corner bead'.
Axminster and Trend both identifiy their router cutters as this. http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/prof...9%2F70X1%2F4TC and http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a...sfile=1&jump=0 Now the characteristic of both of these and others is that the groove, or if you look at the picture of either of these, the bottom section of the cutter, is square across and what I would prefer from looking at some older mouldings, is that this is a V, rather than a U, if you like. There is no way I'm going to use a scratch block on facings round four doors, and there is also the possibility that there is 200 ft of pine to be moulded. Hope this explains better !! Rob |
#11
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Corner bead router cutter
wrote:
Little disappointed that I'm having to define a 'corner bead'. Axminster and Trend both identifiy their router cutters as this. http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/prof...9%2F70X1%2F4TC and http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a...r%20beed%20rou ter&sfile=1&jump=0 Now the characteristic of both of these and others is that the groove, or if you look at the picture of either of these, the bottom section of the cutter, is square across and what I would prefer from looking at some older mouldings, is that this is a V, rather than a U, if you like. There is no way I'm going to use a scratch block on facings round four doors, and there is also the possibility that there is 200 ft of pine to be moulded. Hope this explains better !! Rob oops! I'll get me coat. But I would like to know why you didn't post the links in the first place? -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
#12
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Corner bead router cutter
Very few router cutters bear any resemblance to traditional mouldings.
Don't know why this is - I guess the cutter "designers" have simply not bothered to look at trad woodwork examples and have just made them up instead. The beading cutters available are a perfect example of this - there is no reason for such a simple design not to exactly replicate a trad design but they just don't bother - as a result so much router work looks crap. If you want to do it properly either 1 use a hand moulding plane - lots of old ones still available for sale and cheaper than a router cutter, or 2 make your own spindle moulder cutter, or 3 get a router cutter made up or modified by a saw doctor or engineering shop. What are "facings"? cheers Jacob |
#14
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Corner bead router cutter
Rob Morley wrote:
In article . com, says... Little disappointed that I'm having to define a 'corner bead'. Axminster and Trend both identifiy their router cutters as this. http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/prof...9%2F70X1%2F4TC and http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a...r%20beed%20rou ter&sfile=1&jump=0 Now the characteristic of both of these and others is that the groove, or if you look at the picture of either of these, the bottom section of the cutter, is square across and what I would prefer from looking at some older mouldings, is that this is a V, rather than a U, if you like. There is no way I'm going to use a scratch block on facings round four doors, and there is also the possibility that there is 200 ft of pine to be moulded. Can't you just make your own granny's tooth to cut the final bit of the vee? The way I see it now is he wants a raised 'V' so could you not use one of these... http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/tren...es/11_3hss.jpg to give you this VVVV using correctly spaced marked lines down the facing(architrave), or is this again not what your after? -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
#15
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Corner bead router cutter
mouldings. I'm not going to screw up a job like that by letting a router or a spindle moulder near it! Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings especially if large quantity is involved - as long as you make your own cutters to match, easier than it sounds. You will just never get a router cutter to make as sharp a vee in a moulding as you can easily get by hand. Router cutter could do it but they just don't make them that way. If it's only pine, then use a router. It won't take such a fine moulding anyway. If it's 200' then it's probably hemlock rather than a true pine Only pine! Whats wrong with pine? Most of Britains best Georgian/Victorian joinery is made of pine and is superb in quality/design/durability etc. Pine will take just as fine a moulding as any other wood - no problem, infact is easier to machine than most hardwoods, given selected good quality material and sharp cutters. cheers Jacob |
#16
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Corner bead router cutter
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#17
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Corner bead router cutter
Andy Hall wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 02:58:40 -0800, wrote: mouldings. I'm not going to screw up a job like that by letting a router or a spindle moulder near it! Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings especially if large quantity is involved - as long as you make your own cutters to match, easier than it sounds. So how do you, Jacob? People seem to have different ways of making them...... I'm interested in the cutting, shaping and sharpening methods used. Do you bother to make limiters for example? Start with pair blank HSS plates big enough for the moulding you want. You make a pair but only one cuts the other is for balance i.e. doing it by hand and eye is difficult to make them both cut - not not necessary anyway. Next transfer the design to the plates - I'm usually copying existing so I simply trace around a cleaned up sample with a pencil on to the plate previously paint-aerosoled to take pencil marks. Next rough out the waste with an angle grinder. Then grind out the profile with a bench grinder and various sizes of wheel as necessary - checking by offering up the original. This is all square-on so far. Next back off the profile to make a cutting edge. Then fine adjust the edge by offering up the original sample piece - AT THE ANGLE OF CUT as near as possible - i.e. the hollows will be made deeper etc. Grind away until there is a perfect fit and a sufficiently backed off cutting edge. This sounds imprecise as it depends on hand and eye but the results can be perfect with a bit of practice. Do it in front of a good light so you can see where the cutter doesn't meet the sample. You could make limiters if you really want to but I use the old Whitehill blocks (pre-safety regs) as these permit very fine adjustment and alteration of the angle. You just have to be more careful and not allow anyone else to use the machine. The other advantage of the old blocks is that you can cut more profiles around the other 3 sides of the plates. Forget about exact matching pairs but just aim at balancing the block enough to stop it vibrating or humming too much. I now have hundreds of profiles in my box for very little outlay - would cost thousands in router cutters which would be crap anyway as they don't match old joinery - not to mention the noise, dust and inconvenience. Many of them get modified slightly as new jobs come in, but HSS doesn't seem to need much sharpening. You could do it with safety cutters the same but you'd loose the fine adjustability I imagine, but a tilting arbor might solve the prob. cheers Jacob PS wear goggles - always start the machine with a large block of wood in front of the cutters in case you have forgotten to tighten something - use push sticks or power feed - put all guards in place, etc etc |
#18
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Corner bead router cutter
On 20 Nov 2005 03:56:33 -0800, wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 02:58:40 -0800, wrote: mouldings. I'm not going to screw up a job like that by letting a router or a spindle moulder near it! Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings especially if large quantity is involved - as long as you make your own cutters to match, easier than it sounds. So how do you, Jacob? People seem to have different ways of making them...... I'm interested in the cutting, shaping and sharpening methods used. Do you bother to make limiters for example? Start with pair blank HSS plates big enough for the moulding you want. You make a pair but only one cuts the other is for balance i.e. doing it by hand and eye is difficult to make them both cut - not not necessary anyway. OK. Now it makes sense. Do you do the initial "square on" work with two blanks clamped together, or simply cut a second roughly to match the first, perhaps a cut a bit further back to avoid high spots? Next transfer the design to the plates - I'm usually copying existing so I simply trace around a cleaned up sample with a pencil on to the plate previously paint-aerosoled to take pencil marks. Next rough out the waste with an angle grinder. Then grind out the profile with a bench grinder and various sizes of wheel as necessary - checking by offering up the original. This is all square-on so far. Hmm.... I'm interested as to how you would get into very fine, acute angled places. Do you have narrow wheels for this or is there another way? Next back off the profile to make a cutting edge. Wheel as well? Do you use a jig of some sort to create a consistent angle? Then fine adjust the edge by offering up the original sample piece - AT THE ANGLE OF CUT as near as possible - i.e. the hollows will be made deeper etc. Do you measure that using the knives mounted on the block and on the machine itself, or is there another way? I hadn't really thought about this aspect, but presumably this also depends on the block diameter? Grind away until there is a perfect fit and a sufficiently backed off cutting edge. This sounds imprecise as it depends on hand and eye but the results can be perfect with a bit of practice. Do it in front of a good light so you can see where the cutter doesn't meet the sample. I guess that anyway on older mouldings the cutters may well have been made by hand, so this is a good way. You could make limiters if you really want to but I use the old Whitehill blocks (pre-safety regs) as these permit very fine adjustment and alteration of the angle. OK, so they didn't have the peg arrangement of the new ones? You just have to be more careful and not allow anyone else to use the machine. The other advantage of the old blocks is that you can cut more profiles around the other 3 sides of the plates. So there's some kind of a flat clamping arrangement? I think that on some of the newer ones, one would have to put in some kind of piece to act as a limiter to make the clamp work, even if it wasn't cut to near the profile of the main cutter(s). Forget about exact matching pairs but just aim at balancing the block enough to stop it vibrating or humming too much. Presumably on the machine itself? I now have hundreds of profiles in my box for very little outlay - would cost thousands in router cutters which would be crap anyway as they don't match old joinery - not to mention the noise, dust and inconvenience. Many of them get modified slightly as new jobs come in, but HSS doesn't seem to need much sharpening. Are these generally relatively short runs anyway? You could do it with safety cutters the same but you'd loose the fine adjustability I imagine, but a tilting arbor might solve the prob. cheers Jacob PS wear goggles - always start the machine with a large block of wood in front of the cutters in case you have forgotten to tighten something - use push sticks or power feed - put all guards in place, etc etc Definitely. This is one machine that I treat with a great deal of respect and always follow a check list twice for tightening things and checking free running. -- ..andy |
#19
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Corner bead router cutter
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#20
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Corner bead router cutter
Andy Hall wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 03:56:33 -0800, wrote: Andy Hall wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 02:58:40 -0800, wrote: mouldings. I'm not going to screw up a job like that by letting a router or a spindle moulder near it! Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings especially if large quantity is involved - as long as you make your own cutters to match, easier than it sounds. So how do you, Jacob? People seem to have different ways of making them...... I'm interested in the cutting, shaping and sharpening methods used. Do you bother to make limiters for example? Start with pair blank HSS plates big enough for the moulding you want. You make a pair but only one cuts the other is for balance i.e. doing it by hand and eye is difficult to make them both cut - not not necessary anyway. OK. Now it makes sense. Do you do the initial "square on" work with two blanks clamped together, or simply cut a second roughly to match the first, perhaps a cut a bit further back to avoid high spots? Aim at 2 the same - but set one back slightly in the block - just a gnats Next transfer the design to the plates - I'm usually copying existing so I simply trace around a cleaned up sample with a pencil on to the plate previously paint-aerosoled to take pencil marks. Next rough out the waste with an angle grinder. Then grind out the profile with a bench grinder and various sizes of wheel as necessary - checking by offering up the original. This is all square-on so far. Hmm.... I'm interested as to how you would get into very fine, acute angled places. Do you have narrow wheels for this or is there another way? Make a sharp edge on a thin wheel - cuts a more acute angle when backing off rather than square on, or you can tighten the acute angles with a file Next back off the profile to make a cutting edge. Wheel as well? Do you use a jig of some sort to create a consistent angle? No just back off as you feel necessary - the angle must be acute enough so that the back of the cutter doesn't hit the work piece, thats the only limit Then fine adjust the edge by offering up the original sample piece - AT THE ANGLE OF CUT as near as possible - i.e. the hollows will be made deeper etc. Do you measure that using the knives mounted on the block and on the machine itself, or is there another way? I hadn't really thought about this aspect, but presumably this also depends on the block diameter? Do it by eye - have the block beside you with a cutter in place for visual reference. Grind away until there is a perfect fit and a sufficiently backed off cutting edge. This sounds imprecise as it depends on hand and eye but the results can be perfect with a bit of practice. Do it in front of a good light so you can see where the cutter doesn't meet the sample. I guess that anyway on older mouldings the cutters may well have been made by hand, so this is a good way. Exactly the same procedure with exactly the same result + benefit of machine to do the work You could make limiters if you really want to but I use the old Whitehill blocks (pre-safety regs) as these permit very fine adjustment and alteration of the angle. OK, so they didn't have the peg arrangement of the new ones? Yes - you could file the pegs off but I shouldn't recommend that! You just have to be more careful and not allow anyone else to use the machine. The other advantage of the old blocks is that you can cut more profiles around the other 3 sides of the plates. So there's some kind of a flat clamping arrangement? Yep I think that on some of the newer ones, one would have to put in some kind of piece to act as a limiter to make the clamp work, even if it wasn't cut to near the profile of the main cutter(s). Forget about exact matching pairs but just aim at balancing the block enough to stop it vibrating or humming too much. Presumably on the machine itself? Yerss I now have hundreds of profiles in my box for very little outlay - would cost thousands in router cutters which would be crap anyway as they don't match old joinery - not to mention the noise, dust and inconvenience. Many of them get modified slightly as new jobs come in, but HSS doesn't seem to need much sharpening. Are these generally relatively short runs anyway? Mostly short runs but some have been re-used for years and have done loads of work - particularly the glazing bar ovolo profiles, a bolection/dado rail cutter and various architrave/skirting designs. You could do it with safety cutters the same but you'd loose the fine adjustability I imagine, but a tilting arbor might solve the prob. cheers Jacob PS wear goggles - always start the machine with a large block of wood in front of the cutters in case you have forgotten to tighten something - use push sticks or power feed - put all guards in place, etc etc Definitely. This is one machine that I treat with a great deal of respect and always follow a check list twice for tightening things and checking free running. -- .andy cheers Jacob |
#21
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Corner bead router cutter
Rob Morley wrote: In article . com, says... snip Then grind out the profile with a bench grinder and various sizes of wheel as necessary Don't you mean die grinder? What's a die grinder? I use an ordinary cheapo 6inch double ended bench grinder with standard wheels plus 3 or 4 narrow ones with shaped ends - half round, sharp v angle etc. I'm talking low tech engineering here! cheers Jacob |
#22
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Corner bead router cutter
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#23
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Corner bead router cutter
On 20 Nov 2005 06:13:37 -0800, wrote:
Thanks for all this, Jacob much appreciated -- ..andy |
#24
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Corner bead router cutter
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#25
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Corner bead router cutter
Andy Dingley wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 06:18:02 -0800, wrote: What's a die grinder? Usually an air tool. It's a little "drill motor" that spins a small stone mounted on a shaft, but at some terrifying speed (20k rpm). You have to be careful using stones that are properly rated for it, and keeping them dressed and in balance. I can't really see how you'd shape most spindle tooling on a bench grinder, because the wheel is just too big. I generally use either an angle grinder with a thin disk in it, a die grinder, or just a hand stone slip to finish up. You can buy thin wheels about 6mm I think, and then shape the edge with a normal wheel dressing tool. |
#26
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Corner bead router cutter
Andy Dingley wrote: On 20 Nov 2005 02:58:40 -0800, wrote: Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings It's not bad if you're doing a big cyma but you'll never get as good a reed from a spindle as you can with a single bladed hand tool. Besides which, how do you do neat stopped mouldings ? A spindle might be the easiest way to do repro mouldings, but surely the "best possible tool for accurate repro" is to use the same hand plane they were cutwith originally. OK "best possible macine" If it's only pine, then use a router. It won't take such a fine moulding anyway. If it's 200' then it's probably hemlock rather than a true pine Only pine! Whats wrong with pine? There's nothing wrong with pine, except that we rarely use it any more. You know how hard it is to even find pine of the same grade as was used a century or so ago. If the OP is talking about 200' then I assume he's doing skirtings or something and that will be in generic carpentry whitewood, which is pretty unlikely to even be a pine, let alone a good one. I use excellent quality pine for virtually everything I do. Not at all difficult to find; larger timber merchants stock Russian, Swedish redwood (scots pine) graded as "unsorted" i.e. would be 1st 2nd and 3rds if sorted. Excellent stuff, the trees haven't changed a bit. What is difficult is larger widths above 10 inches as virgin forest is less likely to be cut down nowadays. |
#27
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Corner bead router cutter
Spindle moulder is the best possible tool for accurate repro of period mouldings It's not bad if you're doing a big cyma but you'll never get as good a reed from a spindle as you can with a single bladed hand tool. Yes you can - spindle moulder does very fine work large or small and is much more consistently perfect than a hand tool, and quicker! Much Victorian and earlier joinery was done with spindle moulders - with "french" cutters its an old and primitive tool found alongside lathes and saws at woodworking mills Besides which, how do you do neat stopped mouldings ? A spindle might be the easiest way to do repro mouldings, but surely the "best possible tool for accurate repro" is to use the same hand plane they were cutwith originally. Stopped mouldings same prob whatever you use i.e. you have to cut in to start and pull out to stop, then finish the ends by hand. Just the same with a spindle moulder. And router too, though most people leave the ends bodged as you can't tell from a distance |
#28
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Corner bead router cutter
Andy Dingley wrote:
There's nothing wrong with pine, except that we rarely use it any more. You know how hard it is to even find pine of the same grade as was used a century or so ago. If the OP is talking about 200' then I assume he's doing skirtings or something and that will be in generic carpentry whitewood, which is pretty unlikely to even be a pine, let alone a good one. My local Champions produce all their planed stuff and mouldings from unsorted redwood. Whitewood machines badly and blunts cutters so isn't a viable option for any merchant. |
#29
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Corner bead router cutter
Sorry the 'only pine' bit was meant to indicate that it was soft wood
rather than hardwood. I jealously guard some old pine I have and use it carefully !! So in summary - I'm not going to get the router cutter I want ! And should therefore invest in a spindle moulder ! Hmm - that's not really an option is it? A round bead + V cutter is not recommended so perhaps what I'm going to have to look at is a routed round bead and a cutter for the moulding plane, possibly shaping the cutter myself. I'm not really that enthusiastic about scratching. I do suppose it's not possible to modify a router to do spindle moulding ? Rob |
#30
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Corner bead router cutter
On 22 Nov 2005 14:47:48 -0800, "
wrote: Sorry the 'only pine' bit was meant to indicate that it was soft wood rather than hardwood. I jealously guard some old pine I have and use it carefully !! So in summary - I'm not going to get the router cutter I want ! And should therefore invest in a spindle moulder ! Hmm - that's not really an option is it? Could be. There are secondhand ones around that don't conform to latest safety legislation or have been traded in. It becomes an issue of space and cost. A round bead + V cutter is not recommended so perhaps what I'm going to have to look at is a routed round bead and a cutter for the moulding plane, possibly shaping the cutter myself. I'm not really that enthusiastic about scratching. I do suppose it's not possible to modify a router to do spindle moulding ? The closest would be a router in a router table. If you have a proper 1800-2000W 12.7mm one, you might find a router cutter that's good enough. Typical spindle moulder tooling which can take cutters of the type being discussed is this type of thing http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a...=20842&recno=1 There isn't really a safe and sensible way to fit that to a router, and the drive is normally through a belt on a spindle moulder. If you don't have a lot to do, I guess the next option would be to find a joinery place willing to make the knives and run the pieces. -- ..andy |
#31
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Corner bead router cutter
So in summary - I'm not going to get the router cutter I want ! And should therefore invest in a spindle moulder ! Hmm - that's not really an option is it? A round bead + V cutter is not recommended so perhaps what I'm going to have to look at is a routed round bead and a cutter for the moulding plane, possibly shaping the cutter myself. I'm not really that enthusiastic about scratching. In summary I'd say take the nearest match of router cutter to a saw doctor and ask them to modify it to cut exactly the bead and sharp "v" you want. (nb v is called a "quirk" in this situation). Only buy a spindle if you are going in to mouldings in a biggish way - or if you want total control of design and details. I do suppose it's not possible to modify a router to do spindle moulding ? Router is essentially a tiny portable spindle moulder. Hence can do same as spindle moulder but very limited size of cutters - small work only. Spindle usually 30mm dia compared to router at 1/4inch or 1/2 inch, so tools not interchangeable. But some spindle moulders can take router cutters in an add-on head attachment, if it has enough speed, but max on SM is often about 8000rpm cheers Jacob |
#32
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Corner bead router cutter
Got a good saw doctor locally - I'll pay him a visit.
Thanks everyone. Rob |
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