I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years, both
when it was at Shepton Mallett and now at Westpoint near Exeter.

I've found it a very good way of seeing what is on the market already,
what is new on the market, to look at and feel a very wide range of
tools in one place and to talk to their vendors.

Broadly, I know what I am going to be looking for in the coming months
and can form opinions of what is good, what is mediochre and what I
should avoid.

I like to spend some time wandering around and comparing, if need be
several times.

This year, I bought tickets in advance for the Thursday and Friday.
Thursday, the preview day, is generally quieter, and I arrived at
lunchtime. By around 1500, it had become quite a bit quieter and I was
able to wander around and spend time without pushing through crowds.
On Friday morning, I went with both Grunff and Phil Addison and we all
had another good look around.

Generally......

The show was quite busy, although I had the impression that the
organisers might have had difficulty selling all the stand space to
trade exhibitors and had done low cost or possibly free deals for craft
exhibitors. Having the turning and carving exhibits is fine, but a
local model aircraft club seemed a bit of a stretch. Nevertheless, I
would rather have something than empty stand space, which always looks
crap.
It's also a shame that venues like this let themselves down by having
mediochre catering and not making enough effort with cleaning the place
- especially the toilets.....
However, to be fair, it is not the most horrendous exhibition venue
that I have visited, by a long way.

I was in the market for a number of things:


- marking tools
- spindle tooling for panel doors
- clamps (you can never have too many)
- small drill driver

Then I wanted to look for new ideas and technologies and at what is
available and becoming available


= Veritas (from Canada)make a very nice range of standard and unusual
fine woodworking tools. I was particularly looking for a good quality
square but they don't seem to make one. However, I did find a very
solid straight edge and a marking knife.
http://www.leevalley.com/

= I like to use the very traditional Bessey K clamps and was planning
to augment my collection using the special show pricing. However, I
also saw their new Duo-clamp product. This is a one hand light clamp
but is a lot better and easier to use than its typical competitors. I
bought some and tried them out at the weekend. Impressed so far

= Utility and Craft knives. I've been disappointed with Stanley
knives in recent years. The handles aren't that good any longer and
either the blades are crap or materials tougher. Either way, not a
pleasure to use. Grunff pointed out a knife range and blades made by
Irwin. Took a close look at these. First of all, the blades are
manufactured such that they are claimed to have three times the life of
plain steel. Secondly, there are a number of well thought out features
in the handle such as magnets to prevent the blades falling out. I
bought two and tried one out on Sunday. They do what they say on the
tin..... nice product. I needed some smaller craft knives as well.
Previously I had used X-Acto that I had bought in the US. Here they
had some Swann Morton ones. Bought a set, haven't tried yet.

= Spindle Tooling. I had been debating whether to go for a set of
router cutters or some 30mm spindle tooling for making door panels. I
was also looking for additional profile tooling. Whitehill really
hadn't bothered to make much effort with what they had to show and talk
about, so I was looking for alternatives, of which there were really
three - Freud, Trend and a newish one (at least here) Brueck.
Again, Freud didn't have that much to offer. Brueck had some good
offerings, a good catalogue of tools and cutters. However, I was
concerned that the cutters seemed to be proprietary to the blocks.
Trend, in their industrial range, have a good range of products and
pricing seemed fair in terms of value for money and choice - plus they
use standard sizes. I went for a profile block and a special offer on
a set of two blocks for door and frame cutting.

= Gorilla Wipes. I allowed myself one product that was being sold on
a fairground basis and this was it. I had used impregnated wipes
before and they were OK but not exceptional. These ones seem to have
an alcohol, a detergent of some kind etc. I've used them for glue
cleanup (aliphatic and PU) as well as grease, silicone etc. I was
especially sceptical about silicones but they will clean it up if
uncured.

= Small drill driver. I have been looking for some time for
something in between the DW 7.2v screwdriver and the Makita 14.4v
products that I have. Both are workhorses and do excellent work.
However, I was looking for something that could achieve the torque
without being overly massive. For mixed work, I have been using the
Trend Snappy tools for a while. These are OK, but some are not a
brilliant fit in their holder. I looked at Makita - all good
products but nothing that fitted the bill; same with Hitachi and Bosch.
I had looked briefly at the Festool stand but had not noticed
anything special. I'm glad I went back on Friday. Grunff spotted
what has turned out to be exactly what I wanted - the C12. This is an
impressive product, and I am not easily impressed. The motor is
brushless and controls are electronic. The torque selector controls
the electronics such that the motor gently cuts when the desired torque
is reached - no clicking gearbox. It's well balanced and light with
a choice of NiMH or NiCD battery packs in different capacities. The
motor runs at high torque and low speed from a light touch on the
trigger - better than even Makita manage, and that's pretty good. I
bought the version with swappable chucks. There is a standard chuck
and then three more. One is an angle chuck that canbe oriented and
locked at any angle. A second is an offset chuck which allows a
screwdriver to be positioned no more than 10mm from an edge and still
straight. This makes a big difference to straight driving in certain
situations. Finally, Festool have their own quick change adaptor,
Centrotec. This is similar to the Snappy idea. Normally I don't like
proprietary stuff, but their implementation is good. Also, I can
change things like drills in the holders so anything is easily
replaced. I have a feeling that this technology will find its way
into other Festool products in the future, but for the moment this is a
very pleasing product that's a pleasure to use. There's a complete
set of parts lists, drawings in the Systainer box along with warranty
and service information.


= Other things

- Over the next few months as projects indicate the need, I am going to
go for some additional hand planes. I have some very old wooden ones
and some slightly less old original Stanley ones, which although looked
after have been "well used".
More recently, I've added to them with certain planes made by
Lie-Nielsen from the U.S. These are also a pleasure to use -feeling
solid and behaving predictably and doing what I wanted.
I had been sure that there was more to be learned, and I found on
Lie-Nielsen's stand a set of three DVDs with David Charlesworth
demonstrating sharpening, planing and shooting techniques.
These are well done and I've learned quite a lot from them already as
well as some useful tricks and techniques. Recommended for anybody
liking hand plane work.

- Look at machines. There was not a lot that was remarkably new.
Perhaps the most noticable addition was Rojek with quite a
comprehensive set of woodworking machines from former eastern Europe.
Quite well positioned and I thought better than Sheppach in their
class.

- Interesting power tool. Arbortech are known for making a range of
rather lethal looking tools for doing large wood carving. They are
Australian, and like most things Australian, subtle is not an adjective
that is used a lot. However, they make an interesting product called
an AS160. www.allsaw.com
This is a saw with two opposing blades for cutting brickwork etc. Its
advantage is that it makes coarse dust which just drops down. So for
chasing and mortar raking it would be attractive to use. This is not
something likely to end up as a DIY or even trade tool in most cases -
price tag is £700. However, according to the makers, they are
starting to enter the tool rental trade. For a few tens of UKL per
day, to avoid mess they could be interesting.


- Look at power tools. Apart from the Festool C12, I didn't see much
else of note. I reconfirmed earlier decisions about power tools that
I had bought - mainly Makita, a few Hitachi and DeWalt and Fein.
Nothing has changed to make me alter that decision.

Looked at what was available from the entry level and midrange
suppliers. Toolbank had a display of the Techtronics Ryobi home
improvement brand tools. There were assorted drills, drivers and
combination drills. The product manager was demonstrating one to a
potential customer and the clutch mechanism jammed. He was able to
free it after jiggling it for a little while. Took a look at this and
a couple of others and no these don't have the solid feel of Makita and
others. Asked the product manager how he positioned TTI Ryobi. His
reply was that they are better than the £30 jobs in B&Q, but clearly
not in the same league as Hitachi, DW, Bosch blue, Makita or the
workhorse, Skil.

The only other product range there nominally in the same league is
Axminster White. Unsurprisingly, there was quite a range. I looked
at a few, and some seemed potentially quite reasonable - especially the
better lathes. It was clear though, that there is inconsistency across
the range - some tool and machine types were a lot better than others.
As an aside, I dropped by the Axminster showroom (in Axminster, funnily
enough) on the way home because there were a couple of things I wanted
to pick up rather than having them sent. On waiting to pay, there
were three different customers with various of their drill products,
all bought within the last few weeks. One had a knackered battery,
another (new one) had a chuck that was obviously eccentric and a third
had a very graunchy gearbox new out of the box.
Two replaced and one refunded.
I don't think I'll buy anything from Axminster White without seeing and
touching it first.


All in all, well worth the trip....

"andy hall" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years, both
when it was at Shepton Mallett and now at Westpoint near Exeter.

I've found it a very good way of seeing what is on the market already,
what is new on the market, to look at and feel a very wide range of
tools in one place and to talk to their vendors.

Broadly, I know what I am going to be looking for in the coming months
and can form opinions of what is good, what is mediochre and what I
should avoid.

I like to spend some time wandering around and comparing, if need be
several times.

This year, I bought tickets in advance for the Thursday and Friday.
Thursday, the preview day, is generally quieter, and I arrived at
lunchtime. By around 1500, it had become quite a bit quieter and I was
able to wander around and spend time without pushing through crowds.
On Friday morning, I went with both Grunff and Phil Addison and we all
had another good look around.

Generally......

The show was quite busy, although I had the impression that the
organisers might have had difficulty selling all the stand space to
trade exhibitors and had done low cost or possibly free deals for craft
exhibitors. Having the turning and carving exhibits is fine, but a
local model aircraft club seemed a bit of a stretch. Nevertheless, I
would rather have something than empty stand space, which always looks
crap.
It's also a shame that venues like this let themselves down by having
mediochre catering and not making enough effort with cleaning the place
- especially the toilets.....
However, to be fair, it is not the most horrendous exhibition venue
that I have visited, by a long way.

I was in the market for a number of things:


- marking tools
- spindle tooling for panel doors
- clamps (you can never have too many)
- small drill driver

Then I wanted to look for new ideas and technologies and at what is
available and becoming available


= Veritas (from Canada)make a very nice range of standard and unusual
fine woodworking tools. I was particularly looking for a good quality
square but they don't seem to make one. However, I did find a very
solid straight edge and a marking knife.
http://www.leevalley.com/

= I like to use the very traditional Bessey K clamps and was planning
to augment my collection using the special show pricing. However, I
also saw their new Duo-clamp product. This is a one hand light clamp
but is a lot better and easier to use than its typical competitors. I
bought some and tried them out at the weekend. Impressed so far

= Utility and Craft knives. I've been disappointed with Stanley
knives in recent years. The handles aren't that good any longer and
either the blades are crap or materials tougher. Either way, not a
pleasure to use. Grunff pointed out a knife range and blades made by
Irwin. Took a close look at these. First of all, the blades are
manufactured such that they are claimed to have three times the life of
plain steel. Secondly, there are a number of well thought out features
in the handle such as magnets to prevent the blades falling out. I
bought two and tried one out on Sunday. They do what they say on the
tin..... nice product. I needed some smaller craft knives as well.
Previously I had used X-Acto that I had bought in the US. Here they
had some Swann Morton ones. Bought a set, haven't tried yet.

= Spindle Tooling. I had been debating whether to go for a set of
router cutters or some 30mm spindle tooling for making door panels. I
was also looking for additional profile tooling. Whitehill really
hadn't bothered to make much effort with what they had to show and talk
about, so I was looking for alternatives, of which there were really
three - Freud, Trend and a newish one (at least here) Brueck.
Again, Freud didn't have that much to offer. Brueck had some good
offerings, a good catalogue of tools and cutters. However, I was
concerned that the cutters seemed to be proprietary to the blocks.
Trend, in their industrial range, have a good range of products and
pricing seemed fair in terms of value for money and choice - plus they
use standard sizes. I went for a profile block and a special offer on
a set of two blocks for door and frame cutting.

= Gorilla Wipes. I allowed myself one product that was being sold on
a fairground basis and this was it. I had used impregnated wipes
before and they were OK but not exceptional. These ones seem to have
an alcohol, a detergent of some kind etc. I've used them for glue
cleanup (aliphatic and PU) as well as grease, silicone etc. I was
especially sceptical about silicones but they will clean it up if
uncured.

= Small drill driver. I have been looking for some time for
something in between the DW 7.2v screwdriver and the Makita 14.4v
products that I have. Both are workhorses and do excellent work.
However, I was looking for something that could achieve the torque
without being overly massive. For mixed work, I have been using the
Trend Snappy tools for a while. These are OK, but some are not a
brilliant fit in their holder. I looked at Makita - all good
products but nothing that fitted the bill; same with Hitachi and Bosch.
I had looked briefly at the Festool stand but had not noticed
anything special. I'm glad I went back on Friday. Grunff spotted
what has turned out to be exactly what I wanted - the C12. This is an
impressive product, and I am not easily impressed.

This one:
http://store.protrade.co.uk/default.asp?t=15422

The motor is
brushless and controls are electronic. The torque selector controls
the electronics such that the motor gently cuts when the desired torque
is reached - no clicking gearbox. It's well balanced and light with
a choice of NiMH or NiCD battery packs in different capacities. The
motor runs at high torque and low speed from a light touch on the
trigger - better than even Makita manage, and that's pretty good. I
bought the version with swappable chucks. There is a standard chuck
and then three more. One is an angle chuck that canbe oriented and
locked at any angle. A second is an offset chuck which allows a
screwdriver to be positioned no more than 10mm from an edge and still
straight. This makes a big difference to straight driving in certain
situations. Finally, Festool have their own quick change adaptor,
Centrotec. This is similar to the Snappy idea. Normally I don't like
proprietary stuff, but their implementation is good. Also, I can
change things like drills in the holders so anything is easily
replaced. I have a feeling that this technology will find its way
into other Festool products in the future, but for the moment this is a
very pleasing product that's a pleasure to use. There's a complete
set of parts lists, drawings in the Systainer box along with warranty
and service information.


= Other things

- Over the next few months as projects indicate the need, I am going to
go for some additional hand planes. I have some very old wooden ones
and some slightly less old original Stanley ones, which although looked
after have been "well used".
More recently, I've added to them with certain planes made by
Lie-Nielsen from the U.S. These are also a pleasure to use -feeling
solid and behaving predictably and doing what I wanted.
I had been sure that there was more to be learned, and I found on
Lie-Nielsen's stand a set of three DVDs with David Charlesworth
demonstrating sharpening, planing and shooting techniques.
These are well done and I've learned quite a lot from them already as
well as some useful tricks and techniques. Recommended for anybody
liking hand plane work.

- Look at machines. There was not a lot that was remarkably new.
Perhaps the most noticable addition was Rojek with quite a
comprehensive set of woodworking machines from former eastern Europe.
Quite well positioned and I thought better than Sheppach in their
class.

- Interesting power tool. Arbortech are known for making a range of
rather lethal looking tools for doing large wood carving. They are
Australian, and like most things Australian, subtle is not an adjective
that is used a lot. However, they make an interesting product called
an AS160. www.allsaw.com
This is a saw with two opposing blades for cutting brickwork etc. Its
advantage is that it makes coarse dust which just drops down. So for
chasing and mortar raking it would be attractive to use. This is not
something likely to end up as a DIY or even trade tool in most cases -
price tag is £700. However, according to the makers, they are
starting to enter the tool rental trade. For a few tens of UKL per
day, to avoid mess they could be interesting.


- Look at power tools. Apart from the Festool C12, I didn't see much
else of note. I reconfirmed earlier decisions about power tools that
I had bought - mainly Makita, a few Hitachi and DeWalt and Fein.
Nothing has changed to make me alter that decision.

Looked at what was available from the entry level and midrange
suppliers. Toolbank had a display of the Techtronics Ryobi home
improvement brand tools. There were assorted drills, drivers and
combination drills. The product manager was demonstrating one to a
potential customer and the clutch mechanism jammed. He was able to
free it after jiggling it for a little while. Took a look at this and
a couple of others and no these don't have the solid feel of Makita and
others. Asked the product manager how he positioned TTI Ryobi. His
reply was that they are better than the £30 jobs in B&Q, but clearly
not in the same league as Hitachi, DW, Bosch blue, Makita or the
workhorse, Skil.

The only other product range there nominally in the same league is
Axminster White. Unsurprisingly, there was quite a range. I looked
at a few, and some seemed potentially quite reasonable - especially the
better lathes. It was clear though, that there is inconsistency across
the range - some tool and machine types were a lot better than others.
As an aside, I dropped by the Axminster showroom (in Axminster, funnily
enough) on the way home because there were a couple of things I wanted
to pick up rather than having them sent. On waiting to pay, there
were three different customers with various of their drill products,
all bought within the last few weeks. One had a knackered battery,
another (new one) had a chuck that was obviously eccentric and a third
had a very graunchy gearbox new out of the box.
Two replaced and one refunded.
I don't think I'll buy anything from Axminster White without seeing and
touching it first.


All in all, well worth the trip....

On 16 Nov 2005 14:04:28 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years

snip

All in all, well worth the trip....

Thanks for that Andy. Wouldn't mind going myself but the NEC is about
as far south as I like to venture by road!



--

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:20:55 +0000, Matt
wrote:

On 16 Nov 2005 14:04:28 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years

snip

All in all, well worth the trip....

Thanks for that Andy. Wouldn't mind going myself but the NEC is about
as far south as I like to venture by road!


I've noticed that there are a number of woodworking shows in the
Midlands.

Any of them any good?


--

..andy

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:32:28 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:20:55 +0000, Matt
wrote:

On 16 Nov 2005 14:04:28 -0800, "andy hall"
wrote:

I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years

snip

All in all, well worth the trip....

Thanks for that Andy. Wouldn't mind going myself but the NEC is about
as far south as I like to venture by road!


I've noticed that there are a number of woodworking shows in the
Midlands.

Any of them any good?

I've not been to any for about 15 years now, most of my "work" is with
metal or composites. The woodworking is the (occasional) hobby!


--

On 16 Nov 2005 14:04:28 -0800, "andy hall" wrote:

I don't think I'll buy anything from Axminster White without seeing and
touching it first.

Machines are OK, the hand power tools are poor.

Hands up anyone who bought one White hand tool, then bought another one
after your first experience ? Not me....

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andy Dingley wrote:

Machines are OK, the hand power tools are poor.

Agreed on both counts.

Hands up anyone who bought one White hand tool, then bought another one
after your first experience ? Not me....

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.

I told you not to buy it.

Andy Dingley wrote:

Machines are OK, the hand power tools are poor.

Agreed on both counts.


Hands up anyone who bought one White hand tool, then bought another one
after your first experience ? Not me....

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


--
Grunff

Doctor Drivel wrote:

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


I told you not to buy it.


Yes, but you also told me to buy the Power Pro 18V combi, which I did,
and also returned within a week. Life's too short. I'll stick with my
Makita. Having said that, Andy's Festool is a super drill, and I
wouldn't mind one of those soon...


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


I told you not to buy it.


Yes, but you also told me to buy the Power Pro 18V combi, which I did,
and also returned within a week. Life's too short. I'll stick with my
Makita. Having said that, Andy's Festool is a super drill, and I
wouldn't mind one of those soon...

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500. For a drill/driver?
Please. It good. but not that good.

As I have mentioned, Wickes now sell a 15.6v high torque Kress with an
detachable angle chuck for £95, normally £130.

If I was in the market for one of these attachment types I would go for the
Kress, which is a very good German make.

But I would "probably" buy the Ryobi kit for around £106, which has a
battery angle drill and drill/driver, so no playing with attachments, and
just pick up the drills and go. http://tinyurl.com/d9bf9 Although the Kress
is a quality product.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500. For a drill/driver?
Please. It good. but not that good.

Well, it's all relative. Sometimes I buy something not necessarily
because it's good value for money, but because it's nice and I want it.
For example, the PC I'm using to write this is much, much faster than it
needs to be. I could probably comfortably use a PC that's 1/4 the price.
But I choose not to.

The Festool drill would fall into a similar category for me. I could
have a Makita that offers similar functionality for maybe half the
price, but the Festool is so nicely engineered, it'll make you smile
every time you use it. That's worth a lot to me.


But I would "probably" buy the Ryobi kit for around £106, which has a
battery angle drill and drill/driver, so no playing with attachments, and
just pick up the drills and go. http://tinyurl.com/d9bf9 Although the Kress
is a quality product.

I don't have any real life experience of Kress (I've seen them in the
shop, but that's it). But I do have some experience of Ryobi, and while
they're ok, they're not my cup of tea.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500. For a drill/driver?
Please. It good. but not that good.

Well, it's all relative. Sometimes I
buy something not necessarily
because it's good value for money,
but because it's nice and I want it.

That is the toy syndrome.

For example, the PC I'm using to write this is much, much faster than it
needs to be. I could probably comfortably use a PC that's 1/4 the price.
But I choose not to.

You are probably future proofing your self. I did that one buying a Pentium
2 when P1s were far cheaper. I had the machine for 7 years and it still
worked pretty fast enough.

The Festool drill would fall into a similar category for me. I could
have a Makita that offers similar functionality for maybe half the
price, but the Festool is so nicely engineered, it'll make you smile
every time you use it. That's worth a lot to me.

What does it do? IT drill bloody holes. It is a drill driver with an angle
attachment. It oozes quality, but there is a limit. I have a Bosch 12v
drill/driver and ergonomically is the business, but let down on quality.

But I would "probably" buy the Ryobi kit for around £106, which has a
battery angle drill and drill/driver, so no playing with attachments,
and
just pick up the drills and go. http://tinyurl.com/d9bf9 Although the
Kress
is a quality product.

I don't have any real life experience of Kress (I've seen them in the
shop, but that's it). But I do have some experience of Ryobi, and while
they're ok, they're not my cup of tea.

For what they are and the price they are very good. Horses for courses
again.

Kress angle drill attachments are very neat.
http://www.kress-elektrik.de/en/prod...?categorie=443

This is now being sold under the Wickes label at £40 off at the mo'.

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:41:29 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


I told you not to buy it.


Yes, but you also told me to buy the Power Pro 18V combi, which I did,
and also returned within a week. Life's too short. I'll stick with my
Makita. Having said that, Andy's Festool is a super drill, and I
wouldn't mind one of those soon...

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500.

It would be almost that had it not been for a good deal that I was
able to get at the show.

For a drill/driver?
Please. It good. but not that good.

One should look and try before commenting......




--

..andy

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:41:29 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


I told you not to buy it.


Yes, but you also told me to buy the Power Pro 18V combi, which I did,
and also returned within a week. Life's too short. I'll stick with my
Makita. Having said that, Andy's Festool is a super drill, and I
wouldn't mind one of those soon...

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500.

It would be almost that had it not been for a good deal that I was
able to get at the show.

For a drill/driver?
Please. It's good. but not that good.

One should look and try before commenting......

Matt, does it drill the holes by itself? All it does is drill holes and
drive screws.

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:18:52 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:41:29 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I bought their 18V combi drill, and sent it back after a week.


I told you not to buy it.


Yes, but you also told me to buy the Power Pro 18V combi, which I did,
and also returned within a week. Life's too short. I'll stick with my
Makita. Having said that, Andy's Festool is a super drill, and I
wouldn't mind one of those soon...

How much? All the accessories makes it about £500.

It would be almost that had it not been for a good deal that I was
able to get at the show.

For a drill/driver?
Please. It's good. but not that good.

One should look and try before commenting......

Matt, does it drill the holes by itself? All it does is drill holes and
drive screws.

Does a car drive itself?

Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.


--

..andy

Grunff wrote:
Well, it's all relative. Sometimes I buy something not necessarily
because it's good value for money, but because it's nice and I want it.
For example, the PC I'm using to write this is much, much faster than it
needs to be. I could probably comfortably use a PC that's 1/4 the price.
But I choose not to.

Me too, and I'm already hankering after an upgrade, but it is my job
as well I suppose.


The Festool drill would fall into a similar category for me. I could
have a Makita that offers similar functionality for maybe half the
price, but the Festool is so nicely engineered, it'll make you smile
every time you use it. That's worth a lot to me.

If you shop around you can often find something that satisfies but
isn't a totally OTT price. My Metabo cordless fits that category (for
me anyway), I got it when it was on special offer at just over £100
which is, I suppose, sort of middling price for a 12v cordless. It's
a really excellent tool though, I really can't think of anything that
would improve it.

I don't have any real life experience of Kress (I've seen them in the
shop, but that's it). But I do have some experience of Ryobi, and while
they're ok, they're not my cup of tea.

When I bought the Metabo I looked at some Ryobi stuff, for me at least
it was simply too big.

--
Chris Green

On 17 Nov 2005 15:59:06 GMT, wrote:



When I bought the Metabo I looked at some Ryobi stuff, for me at least
it was simply too big.


Metabo's sanders are very good as well....


--

..andy

wrote:

Me too, and I'm already hankering after an upgrade, but it is my job
as well I suppose.

My job too - but most of the time I'm just using high-functionality text
editors, nothing more.


If you shop around you can often find something that satisfies but
isn't a totally OTT price. My Metabo cordless fits that category (for
me anyway), I got it when it was on special offer at just over £100
which is, I suppose, sort of middling price for a 12v cordless. It's
a really excellent tool though, I really can't think of anything that
would improve it.

Not knocking Metabo, they make great tools - but you should really take
a look at the brushless motor drill from Festool. The motor gives
smooth, steady torque right from low speed through to high. Lovely.


When I bought the Metabo I looked at some Ryobi stuff, for me at least
it was simply too big.

This is one of the problems for me, the other big one being battery life
- the batteries just plain suck.


--
Grunff

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.

Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly. ;-)

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

John Cartmell wrote:

Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.


Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly. ;-)

ROFL...

Keep telling yourself that Skoda man...


--
Grunff

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:08:07 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.

Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly. ;-)


.... and you can double the value by filling it with petrol....


--

..andy

In article , John Cartmell wrote:
Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly. ;-)

And is less likely to be stolen while you're about your business.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
John Cartmell wrote:

Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.


Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is
more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly.
;-)

ROFL...

Keep telling yourself that Skoda man...

The 2005 Top Gear user survey of 76,000 [people put the Skoda near the top
with 159 cars surveyed.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The 2005 Top Gear user survey of 76,000 [people put the Skoda near the top
with 159 cars surveyed.


Why would I give a **** what the brainwashed masses think? I'm quite
capable of driving a variety of cars, and making up my own mind about
what I like and don't like.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The 2005 Top Gear user survey of 76,000 [people put the Skoda near the
top
with 159 cars surveyed.

Why would I give a **** what the brainwashed masses think?

It was a detailed survey of what the owners thought of these cars. The
bottom ten was full of French cars.

A survey of 76,000 people is significant.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

It was a detailed survey of what the owners thought of these cars.

Exactly, what they /thought/. Totally subjective, and largely driven by
media-derived image.


A survey of 76,000 people is significant.

There is nothing more stupid than groups of people. Gather together the
opinions of thousands of people and all you will have is noise.


--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Cartmell wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.

Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda
is more likely to start first time and actually get you there more
assuredly.

The 2005 Top Gear user survey of 76,000 [people put the Skoda near the
top with 159 cars surveyed.

Why would I give a **** what the brainwashed masses think?

You don't have to, but it is a fact that based on reliability Skoda
score better than BMW.

http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/reliability_car_search.html

and other references are there for you to read.


I'm quite capable of driving a variety of cars, and making up my own
mind about what I like and don't like.

Fine - but it's not what J. Cartmell was referring to, is it.

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , John Cartmell wrote:
Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda is more
likely to start first time and actually get you there more assuredly. ;-)

And is less likely to be stolen while you're about your business.

Anyone with a BMW like to say how much they have spent over how long on
repairs excluding tyres and exhaust - and how often the car has let them down?

Of course it all depends on what you want. Carrying a multitude of allsorts in
a low cost vehicle from A to B, parking easily and not being let down by the
vehicle seems to be a reasonable requirement. Yours may differ.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

It was a detailed survey of what the owners thought of these cars.

Exactly, what they /thought/. Totally subjective, and largely driven by
media-derived image.

Nope. They listed problems, breakdowns, and what types, dealer service,
what it's like to live with, economy, etc, etc.

Goggle Top Gear and Survey and it's all there and then you can stop making a
prat of yourself.

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
Grunff wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Cartmell wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

Be it a BMW or a Skoda, all it does is to go from A to B.

Except that, whilst the BMW might get you there faster, the Skoda
is more likely to start first time and actually get you there more
assuredly.

The 2005 Top Gear user survey of 76,000 [people put the Skoda near the
top with 159 cars surveyed.

Why would I give a **** what the brainwashed masses think?

You don't have to, but it is a fact that based on reliability Skoda
score better than BMW.

http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/reliability_car_search.html

and other references are there for you to read.

I'm quite capable of driving a variety of cars, and making up my own
mind about what I like and don't like.

What you like is a "perceived" image that brands are supposed to give. The
label has to right in your eyes. The Audi is basically the Skoda underneath,
but people think the Audi has image and the Skoda not, so they convince
themselves that the Skoda is poor quality. Buying off the shelf image - so
you think. Your type think BMW is image, while people with class, like
myself, do not. You can't buy class. Like me you just have it.

Fine - but it's not what J. Cartmell was referring to, is it.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote...
[ snip ]
What you like is a "perceived" image that brands are supposed to give.

No I don't. Please address your remarks to the right person.

John Cartmell wrote:

Anyone with a BMW like to say how much they have spent over how long on
repairs excluding tyres and exhaust - and how often the car has let them down?

Ok!

Let's take the 528. One wheel bearing, the part cost £25 and took half
an hour to fit. That's it.

The 325, which I've had for 8 years, has needed even less - I can't
actually recall a single repair I've had to do on it.

Neither car has ever let me down.

But of course the above is meaningless - a sample of two cars means nothing.


--
Grunff

Chris Bacon wrote:

Fine - but it's not what J. Cartmell was referring to, is it.

The TG surveys are purely subjective. People's perceptions of the
quality of their cars contribute far more than real life reliability.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Chris Bacon wrote:

Fine - but it's not what J. Cartmell was referring to, is it.

The TG surveys are purely subjective. People's perceptions of the
quality of their cars contribute far more than real life reliability.

They listed problems, breakdowns, etc. BMW came nowhere.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
John Cartmell wrote:

Anyone with a BMW like to say how much they have spent over how long on
repairs excluding tyres and exhaust - and how often the car has let them
down?

Ok!

Let's take the 528. One wheel bearing, the part cost £25 and took half
an hour to fit. That's it.

The 325, which I've had for 8 years, has needed even less - I can't
actually recall a single repair I've had to do on it.

Neither car has ever let me down.

But of course the above is meaningless - a sample of two cars means
nothing.

Exactly. 76,000 can't all be wrong.

Grunff wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
[ reliability of cars ]
The TG surveys are purely subjective. People's perceptions of the
quality of their cars contribute far more than real life reliability.

TG is pants anyway. I was referring to other information showing
Skoda to be more reliable than BMW, like that at:

http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/reliability_car_search.html

I'm not saying that I prefer Skoda *or* BMW cars, incidentally.

In article ,
Grunff wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

It was a detailed survey of what the owners thought of these cars.

Exactly, what they /thought/. Totally subjective, and largely driven by
media-derived image.


A survey of 76,000 people is significant.

There is nothing more stupid than groups of people. Gather together the
opinions of thousands of people and all you will have is noise.

Not quite true. Lots of people answering a survey individually is different
from getting answers from lots of people in a group. You could suggest that
they would individually be biased by the Top Gear programme and team ...

... towards Skoda?!

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
Grunff wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:

Fine - but it's not what J. Cartmell was referring to, is it.

The TG surveys are purely subjective. People's perceptions of the
quality of their cars contribute far more than real life reliability.

So did you check the reliability rating from the Insurance Companiy's figures?

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:01:38 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

I'm not saying that I prefer Skoda *or* BMW cars, incidentally.

Who is ever going to be choosing _between_ a Skoda and a BMW anyway ?
(Now if we were talking _Tatras_...)

What is clear though is that Skoda used to make unfashionable
rear-engined cars with the charm of a tractor, the simple reliability of
a wheelbarrow and an enviable record of success in the RAC Rally for
years. You might not _like_ the things, but you'll not meet a rally
driver who laughs at Skodas - they've been beaten by too many of them.

These days the make things that are like small Volkswagens or "family
cars". As boring as a semi in Milton Keynes, but they do the job and the
factory is clearly good at making them. As an engineer I'm still tempted
to move the the Czech Republic - a country that still has some respect
for maunfacturing, engineering and "doing it right".

As to the French, then they're just making really rubbish small cars
these days, and have done since the abysmal Citroen AX. Even my
_parents_ (who have no taste in anything) finally realised their ZX was
an appalling turkey with the build quality of an Allegro, then swapped
it for a Honda Civic (boring little pod-car, but it works).

andy hall wrote:
I have visited the Axminster Power Tools show for several years, both
when it was at Shepton Mallett and now at Westpoint near Exeter.

huge snips.....

- Interesting power tool. Arbortech are known for making a range of
rather lethal looking tools for doing large wood carving. They are
Australian, and like most things Australian, subtle is not an
adjective that is used a lot. However, they make an interesting
product called an AS160. www.allsaw.com
This is a saw with two opposing blades for cutting brickwork etc. Its
advantage is that it makes coarse dust which just drops down. So for
chasing and mortar raking it would be attractive to use. This is not
something likely to end up as a DIY or even trade tool in most cases -
price tag is £700. However, according to the makers, they are
starting to enter the tool rental trade. For a few tens of UKL per
day, to avoid mess they could be interesting.

Interesting one for us, this, thanks Andy. Just had a look at the
website. It does look expensive at 700GBP, and it's hard to tell from
the pictures (system here is too slow for videos etc), but it doesn't
look very robust for regular(ish) professional use. And it would need to
be for that price. We could make quite alot of use of something like
that instead of an angle grinder and the price would be OK if it was
going to last. Also what about life/replacement of blades? I've emailed
them for more details/stockists, but having seen the thing have you any
more thoughts on this please?

Shame this thread has gone off on a tangent towards BMW/Skoda :-)
--
Holly, in France
Holiday Home in Dordogne
http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr/