Hi All,

Sorta following on from the recent thread but on a different tack ..

Dad used to be involved in some BSI meetings and often saw a similar
picture.

The UK delegation would be fighting tooth-and-nail to pin a standard
down to be reasonable / useable etc whilst the likes of the French
(for example) were happy for it to go through 'as-is' irrespective of
how unreasonable or overstrict etc it might be.

The reason for this lack of involvement .. "we aren't going to take
any notice of the std anyway ... "!

So is it *just* us that do this stuff by the book .. judging by what
you see on these house makeover shows re work in France / Spain I
think the answer is yes (and not just the diy'ers).

All the best ..

T i m

So is it *just* us that do this stuff by the book .. judging by what
you see on these house makeover shows re work in France / Spain I
think the answer is yes (and not just the diy'ers).

All the best ..

T i m

You already know the answer to that G.

Dave

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:43:26 +0100, dave stanton
wrote:


So is it *just* us that do this stuff by the book .. judging by what
you see on these house makeover shows re work in France / Spain I
think the answer is yes (and not just the diy'ers).

All the best ..

T i m

You already know the answer to that G.

Ok, so *why* do we then Dave?

Is it something we are programmed to do?

I believe the Germans are actually worse than us for 'falling in' with
all the rules and regs (without question) but the rest ..?

All the best ..

T i m

Ok, so *why* do we then Dave?

Is it something we are programmed to do?

I believe the Germans are actually worse than us for 'falling in' with
all the rules and regs (without question) but the rest ..?

All the best ..

T i m

I think because the British have always ' played fair' and by the rules.
The rest of europe says to hell with it.

Cheers

DAve

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:10:41 +0100, dave stanton
wrote:


Ok, so *why* do we then Dave?

Is it something we are programmed to do?

I believe the Germans are actually worse than us for 'falling in' with
all the rules and regs (without question) but the rest ..?

All the best ..

T i m

I think because the British have always ' played fair' and by the rules.
The rest of europe says to hell with it.

Cheers

DAve



Untrue.


IMCE, this is very much a north/south issue or perhaps a cultural one
in Europe.

Countries further north or with a Germanic language/cultural root tend
to have a more proceduralised environment and usually do tend to work
by and to follow rules.

Those further south with more of a Latin language/cultural root tend
to have the rules, but frequently apply them just when something bad
happens.

In that sense, it is not all that surprising, that the British, having
a mixture of the two (plus others), tend to adopt something in
between.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:01:04 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


IMCE, this is very much a north/south issue or perhaps a cultural one
in Europe.

Countries further north or with a Germanic language/cultural root tend
to have a more proceduralised environment and usually do tend to work
by and to follow rules.

Those further south with more of a Latin language/cultural root tend
to have the rules, but frequently apply them just when something bad
happens.

Seems to fit ...

I was driving a mate recently (who had moved to Italy about 10 years
ago) when the set of lights I was approaching turned to amber and I
stopped (it would have been touch and go that I would have crossed the
first set *just* as they turned red or not).

He had a bit of a panic and asked me 'not to do that again!'. He said
that had I done that (stopped on an amber) in Nth Italy I would
probably had had a car in my boot, in the South it would have been
guaranteed!

So I wonder why this Nth / Sth (Europe) thing is though? And are there
any stats to show the consequencies of 'not following the rules' is
more dangerous (the point of all these rules / regs in the first place
in most cases)?

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:01:04 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


IMCE, this is very much a north/south issue or perhaps a cultural one
in Europe.

Countries further north or with a Germanic language/cultural root
tend to have a more proceduralised environment and usually do tend
to work by and to follow rules.

Those further south with more of a Latin language/cultural root tend
to have the rules, but frequently apply them just when something bad
happens.

Seems to fit ...

I was driving a mate recently (who had moved to Italy about 10 years
ago) when the set of lights I was approaching turned to amber and I
stopped (it would have been touch and go that I would have crossed the
first set *just* as they turned red or not).

He had a bit of a panic and asked me 'not to do that again!'. He said
that had I done that (stopped on an amber) in Nth Italy I would
probably had had a car in my boot, in the South it would have been
guaranteed!

So I wonder why this Nth / Sth (Europe) thing is though? And are there
any stats to show the consequencies of 'not following the rules' is
more dangerous (the point of all these rules / regs in the first place
in most cases)?


I had a similar thing in Madeira (Portuguese). As I was approaching a ped
crossing while it was red, I slowed down. Someone stepped out just as the
lights changed to flashing amber, so I stayed slow to let them get across.
The car behind tooted, *and* the bloke stepped back sharply and waved me to
go through...

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:18:56 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:


I had a similar thing in Madeira (Portuguese). As I was approaching a ped
crossing while it was red, I slowed down. Someone stepped out just as the
lights changed to flashing amber, so I stayed slow to let them get across.
The car behind tooted, *and* the bloke stepped back sharply and waved me to
go through...

Would you happen to know what the actual rules are there Paul .. like
here the peds generally have right_of_way whereas I believe in the
States you can be done for 'jaywalking'?

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:18:56 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:


I had a similar thing in Madeira (Portuguese). As I was approaching
a ped crossing while it was red, I slowed down. Someone stepped out
just as the lights changed to flashing amber, so I stayed slow to
let them get across. The car behind tooted, *and* the bloke stepped
back sharply and waved me to go through...

Would you happen to know what the actual rules are there Paul .. like
here the peds generally have right_of_way whereas I believe in the
States you can be done for 'jaywalking'?

Hmm...

Can't recall now what I knew at the time, but websites now say both that
peds have priority once they are on the road (like here), and that this is
widely ignored...

Apparently Portugal (Madeira is an island but very Portuguese) has the
highest ped death rate in Europe...

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:15:46 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:18:56 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:


I had a similar thing in Madeira (Portuguese). As I was approaching a ped
crossing while it was red, I slowed down. Someone stepped out just as the
lights changed to flashing amber, so I stayed slow to let them get across.
The car behind tooted, *and* the bloke stepped back sharply and waved me to
go through...

Would you happen to know what the actual rules are there Paul .. like
here the peds generally have right_of_way whereas I believe in the
States you can be done for 'jaywalking'?

It varies.

In the U.S., AIUI, jaywalking is generally if you cross other than at
an intersection or against a pedestrian signal light.

In the Netherlands, bicycles reign supreme. For example, in most
instances, AIUI, if you are in a car wanting to turn right, a bike
going straight on has right of way and you have to wait.



All the best ..

T i m

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:44:03 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:01:04 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:


IMCE, this is very much a north/south issue or perhaps a cultural one
in Europe.

Countries further north or with a Germanic language/cultural root tend
to have a more proceduralised environment and usually do tend to work
by and to follow rules.

Those further south with more of a Latin language/cultural root tend
to have the rules, but frequently apply them just when something bad
happens.

Seems to fit ...

I was driving a mate recently (who had moved to Italy about 10 years
ago) when the set of lights I was approaching turned to amber and I
stopped (it would have been touch and go that I would have crossed the
first set *just* as they turned red or not).

He had a bit of a panic and asked me 'not to do that again!'. He said
that had I done that (stopped on an amber) in Nth Italy I would
probably had had a car in my boot, in the South it would have been
guaranteed!

Oh sure. The best white knuckle ride I ever had was with a taxi
driver in Milan who thought that traffic lights were more of a
"policy" thing. However, he did believe in giving hand signals. The
window was wound down the whole time and he gave many of them with the
middle finger of his left hand.




So I wonder why this Nth / Sth (Europe) thing is though? And are there
any stats to show the consequencies of 'not following the rules' is
more dangerous (the point of all these rules / regs in the first place
in most cases)?

It's a stereotype, of course, but I think that the main part is
cultural.

The idea of having rules covering lots of things in many countries in
continental Europe probably comes on the back of the civil legal
systems which are based on the Napoleonic code or on the codified
environments of the German speaking countries.

Scandinavia does not seem to be so influenced by that approach, there
being more of a culture of the individual (but with humility).

The British system tends to be based on case law and hence I suspect
that this has been the reason why the culture is not naturally in
favour of regulation and legislation on things unless there is a need
to do so.

In terms of impact, I suspect that there are a whole bunch of factors
for a given issue.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:44:03 GMT, T i m wrote:


On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:01:04 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:



IMCE, this is very much a north/south issue or perhaps a cultural one
in Europe.

Countries further north or with a Germanic language/cultural root tend
to have a more proceduralised environment and usually do tend to work
by and to follow rules.

Those further south with more of a Latin language/cultural root tend
to have the rules, but frequently apply them just when something bad
happens.

Seems to fit ...

I was driving a mate recently (who had moved to Italy about 10 years
ago) when the set of lights I was approaching turned to amber and I
stopped (it would have been touch and go that I would have crossed the
first set *just* as they turned red or not).

He had a bit of a panic and asked me 'not to do that again!'. He said
that had I done that (stopped on an amber) in Nth Italy I would
probably had had a car in my boot, in the South it would have been
guaranteed!


Oh sure. The best white knuckle ride I ever had was with a taxi
driver in Milan who thought that traffic lights were more of a
"policy" thing. However, he did believe in giving hand signals. The
window was wound down the whole time and he gave many of them with the
middle finger of his left hand.


Milan, I'd agree with. My job occasionally takes me to Italy
(Rome/Milan/Turin) and Germany (and on only a couple of occasions to
Spain, Madrid).

Of those, I think the Italians have the most (not the word... I'm
looking for)... arrogance - take nothing away from them, typically good
drivers (in that they miss things, and they can fit a 13' car into a
13'1" space on the motorway at 80mph. My outstanding memory was a trip
to Turin where I was constantly being cut-up by learner drivers.

The Spanish, certainly city driving, appear oblivious to the dangers on
the road. As a pedestrian you take your life into your own hands if you
endeavour to cross the road. Memories there was of
feet-against-car-panels being used by scooter-riders to negotiate the
lanes of traffic in central Madrid.

The Germans, however, a completely different kettle of fish. Very
competant on the roads (just god-awful Autobahns with two lanes - inner
full of HGVs and the outer full of 200kmph Porsche; first time I took a
couple of colleagues there comments akin to "bloody exocet coming up
behind" were frequent. The strangest thing was in the city centres,
where the local pedestrians refuse to cross until they get the green-man
at the crossing. Nothing wierder than waiting, German beer beckoning
from the pub over the road, with a bunch of Germans at a crossing and
moving onto the road when the traffics past, to look around and realise
you're on your own.

I always find the trip back from the airport home the most relaxing as,
once again, you get used to the good old British motorway and
predictable driving.

Horses for courses, of course.

Mike

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

In the Netherlands, bicycles reign supreme. For example, in most
instances, AIUI, if you are in a car wanting to turn right, a bike
going straight on has right of way and you have to wait.

In most cases that is true in the UK.
Pedestrians also have the right of way if you are turning (left or right).

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:03:18 +0100, Mike Dodd no-address@lo0 wrote:

snip
Nothing wierder than waiting, German beer beckoning
from the pub over the road, with a bunch of Germans at a crossing and
moving onto the road when the traffics past, to look around and realise
you're on your own.

lol

I try not to use the lights on crossings (but still cross there if
convienient) .. nothing worse than pressing the button, seeing a gap
and walking across then having the cars stop and wait for no reason
after you have long gone?

On the beer subject .. is it the same 'cultural' thing re driving
attitudes and us 'binge drinking' compared with the same Europeans?

A mate went to a German beer festival .. he noted that at the end a
few thousand fairly drunk Germans quietly made their way home .. no
fights, no burnt out cars, no pushed in shop windows .. ?

All the best ..

T i m

wrote:
In the Netherlands, bicycles reign supreme. For example, in most
instances, AIUI, if you are in a car wanting to turn right, a bike
going straight on has right of way and you have to wait.
(substitute left for right)
That's the same here! It also applies to pedestrians on a major road if you
are turning off into the minor road. Most pedestrians will give way, cos the
car reigns supreme, for now.

No, because it doesn't matter if you have right of way if you end up
getting squished.

Owain