I'm currently having a loft conversion done. My architect drew up the
plans and they have been submitted and approved by building regs. The
build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs. Bearing in mind that the building has
been altered according to the submitted and approved plans can the
Building regs people then change their minds? If so it strikes me as a
bit bonkers having commiteed 25K to this build so far and I really
dont want any of it changing.

Cheers

Blakey

blakey9000 wrote:

I'm currently having a loft conversion done. My architect drew up the
plans and they have been submitted and approved by building regs. The
build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs. Bearing in mind that the building has
been altered according to the submitted and approved plans can the
Building regs people then change their minds? If so it strikes me as a
bit bonkers having commiteed 25K to this build so far and I really
dont want any of it changing.

I think it depends what you want to call it - if you want
to claim the house now has an extra bedroom, then you have
to follow more regs than if you simply call it a loft
conversion.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs.

Do you mean that you have open plan stairs downstairs or something?

Christian.

blakey9000 wrote:

I'm currently having a loft conversion done. My architect drew up the
plans and they have been submitted and approved by building regs. The
build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs. Bearing in mind that the building has
been altered according to the submitted and approved plans can the
Building regs people then change their minds? If so it strikes me as a
bit bonkers having commiteed 25K to this build so far and I really
dont want any of it changing.

We had our loft converted last year adding a second (ground, first,
second) floor. We wanted to be able to use the conversion as a living
room or a bedroom. The fire regs require every room on every floor to
be seperated from the stairwell by a door.

This ment that the top of the stair well on the second floor had to be
seperated by a partition wall. Do any of the landings in your house
open out into a roon? Do you have an open plan stairwell?

Guy
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy Dawson I.T. Manager Crossflight Ltd

Do you mean that you have open plan stairs downstairs or something?

Christian.

Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Blakey

"blakey9000" wrote in message
m...
Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Are you sure you have an "approved" plan? If you've left it to an architect
or plan drawer, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he may have
put the application on a Building Notice, or the plans may be rejected, or
conditionally approved subject to this item. I'm not clear from your reply
whether the open plan stair was indicated at ground floor level. If not, it
may have just been assumed by the plan checker that it was enclosed.

If none of the above apply, and you have fully approved plans showing an
open plan layout, then the Council can't take enforcement action against you
for failing to provide an enclosure (except by way of an injunction to the
High Court for a dangerous building). However they can withhold a
completion certificate on the basis that it doesn't comply with the
requirements.

However, the lack of an enclosure at ground floor level is so fundamental to
the safety of a loft conversion that any competent architect or Building
Control Surveyor should have picked it up on day one. It's one of the first
questions I ask when I'm asked, "what do I need for a loft conversion?".
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".

"blakey9000" wrote in message
om...
I'm currently having a loft conversion done. My architect drew up the
plans and they have been submitted and approved by building regs. The
build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs. Bearing in mind that the building has
been altered according to the submitted and approved plans can the
Building regs people then change their minds? If so it strikes me as a
bit bonkers having commiteed 25K to this build so far and I really
dont want any of it changing.

Cheers

Blakey

This site has the Approved Documents that are the guidelines for all of these
type of builds:

http://tinyurl.co.uk/0gzl (short version)

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...hcst?n=240&l=2
(long version)

Documents A and B might be worth a read through, although they do go on a bit,
and give yourself a better understanding of the way it should go.

It might even give you some ammunition to fire back if things do get a bit out
of hand.

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message ...
"blakey9000" wrote in message
m...
Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Are you sure you have an "approved" plan?

Plans are definitly approved I have the paperwork from the local
authority and their are no conditions to its approval.

Yes the ground floor stairs are open plan into my living room, which
leads up to first floor landing with new fire door to lobby at bottom
of (new enclosed)stairs to loft, also in lobby is another fire door to
another room, with window which is apparently a means of escape.


Blakey

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message ...
"blakey9000" wrote in message
m...

If none of the above apply, and you have fully approved plans showing an
open plan layout, then the Council can't take enforcement action against you
for failing to provide an enclosure (except by way of an injunction to the
High Court for a dangerous building). However they can withhold a
completion certificate on the basis that it doesn't comply with the
requirements.

However, the lack of an enclosure at ground floor level is so fundamental to
the safety of a loft conversion that any competent architect or Building
Control Surveyor should have picked it up on day one. It's one of the first
questions I ask when I'm asked, "what do I need for a loft conversion?".

I know we're still talking 'theoretically' here, but if the latter is
the case, does that mean that the punter just has to grin and bear it,
and pick up the tab for undoing work done so far, and redoing it to
the appropriate standard?

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...' It wasn't a big
deal to put right, because said walls hadn't yet been skimmed, so was
just a simple matter of unscrewing the plasterboard panels. However,
the experience did get me wondering what else might suddenly strike
her to check up on in future visits, before I get my completion
certificate. I did ask her at the time if there was anything else I
should be aware of - don't think so, she said.

Is this just a risk/side-effect of me being a cheapskate and not doing
the job on a full plan?

David

Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Whoops. Whilst you have obviously been subject to some sort of brain fart
between the architect and the BCO, you really should have the stairs
enclosed anyway. 3 storey buildings are a much more dangerous fire risk than
2 storey ones and it is much more likely to involve death if you jump from
that high up when things get hairy because the stairs are blocked. The
regulations do make sense.

Christian.

"blakey9000" wrote in message
om...
"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
"blakey9000" wrote in message
m...
Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Are you sure you have an "approved" plan?

Plans are definitly approved I have the paperwork from the local
authority and their are no conditions to its approval.

Yes the ground floor stairs are open plan into my living room, which
leads up to first floor landing with new fire door to lobby at bottom
of (new enclosed)stairs to loft, also in lobby is another fire door to
another room, with window which is apparently a means of escape.


Blakey

A now I see !!! If you already have proper fire doors at the appropriate points
on the stair-well, then you're OK. As long as the new part of the staircase is
not fully open all the way down to the open plan part, then you're sorted.


---
http://www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com/

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.706 / Virus Database: 462 - Release Date: 14/06/04

A now I see !!! If you already have proper fire doors at the appropriate
points
on the stair-well, then you're OK. As long as the new part of the
staircase is
not fully open all the way down to the open plan part, then you're sorted.

The way I read them (I may be wrong) is that the stairs are the primary
escape route and your escape route should be protected all the way to one of
these two points.

a) An outside door
b) A point where there are now two independent exit paths, each of which may
be unprotected, but the fact that there are two doesn't matter.

(b) is most likely to arise if the stairs lead to a downstairs hall, but the
outside doors are elsewhere, such as a back door through the kitchen and a
front door through the lounge.

This doesn't just apply to new parts of the staircase, but the entire
staircase that is required for escape during a fire.

Christian.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:59:17 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

A now I see !!! If you already have proper fire doors at the appropriate
points
on the stair-well, then you're OK. As long as the new part of the
staircase is
not fully open all the way down to the open plan part, then you're sorted.

The way I read them (I may be wrong) is that the stairs are the primary
escape route and your escape route should be protected all the way to one of
these two points.

a) An outside door
b) A point where there are now two independent exit paths, each of which may
be unprotected, but the fact that there are two doesn't matter.

(b) is most likely to arise if the stairs lead to a downstairs hall, but the
outside doors are elsewhere, such as a back door through the kitchen and a
front door through the lounge.

This doesn't just apply to new parts of the staircase, but the entire
staircase that is required for escape during a fire.

Christian.



So what happens if you have the classical design of house with the
stairs going up from a front hall or passage, doors to all downstairs
rooms from it and the front door also opening directly from it?

Is the assumption that a fire downstairs would not start in the hall
and that all room doors would be shut, thus containing the fire for a
short while?

Do the stairs from the ground floor then have to be boxed in?

If that's the case, how would enclosing the stairs help if they are
open at the bottom anyway, or is this all about in effect creating an
enclosed area out to the front door in cases where the stairs exit
(e.g.) directly from the lounge?

I don't follow the intent here.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Is the assumption that a fire downstairs would not start in the hall
and that all room doors would be shut, thus containing the fire for a
short while?

Yes. Which is why closers are required. Should the fire start in the hall
(which is exceedingly rare) or the self closers have been defeated (very
common), the secondary escape method comes into force. This is having a 30
minute fire protected loft with escape window that you may be rescued by
firefighters through.

Do the stairs from the ground floor then have to be boxed in?

Normally. The staircase doesn't need protecting from hallways. But it does
need protecting from rooms, unless it is using the 2 escape routes to
outside door method.

I don't follow the intent here.....

The idea is that you usually have a protected route (or 2 independent
unprotected ones) to an outside door so that you may escape. If using
protection instead of doubling up, it shouldn't be open plan into a room
which could possibly be on fire. In the unlikely event that the protected
route is breached, you are required to have a loft zone protected for 30
minutes, long enough for the fire brigade to pluck you from the mandatory
escape window, which must be easily reachable by a ladder.

It is intended that the ladder is provided by emergency services, although a
rope escape ladder can't be a bad idea and I reckon should be mandatory,
really. It could easily fit in a purpose built cupboard fitted in the escape
window soffit.

Christian.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:45:30 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Is the assumption that a fire downstairs would not start in the hall
and that all room doors would be shut, thus containing the fire for a
short while?

Yes. Which is why closers are required. Should the fire start in the hall
(which is exceedingly rare) or the self closers have been defeated (very
common), the secondary escape method comes into force. This is having a 30
minute fire protected loft with escape window that you may be rescued by
firefighters through.

OK, makes sense. This is basically protecting the loft from the rest
of the house.



Do the stairs from the ground floor then have to be boxed in?

Normally. The staircase doesn't need protecting from hallways.

So what does boxing it in at the sides achieve unless there is also a
door at the bottom? If the ground to first floor stairs were
fully boxed in with door at the bottom as well then you would also be
protecting the first floor.


But it does
need protecting from rooms, unless it is using the 2 escape routes to
outside door method.

OK, that makes sense, but then I still don't follow what boxing in the
ground to first floor stairs does. Is the point that this needs
to be done, and with a door at the bottom if these stairs come from a
room rather than a hall or passage?



I don't follow the intent here.....

The idea is that you usually have a protected route (or 2 independent
unprotected ones) to an outside door so that you may escape. If using
protection instead of doubling up, it shouldn't be open plan into a room
which could possibly be on fire. In the unlikely event that the protected
route is breached, you are required to have a loft zone protected for 30
minutes, long enough for the fire brigade to pluck you from the mandatory
escape window, which must be easily reachable by a ladder.

I can follow the logic of protecting the stairs from first floor to
loft for all the reasons described, but what is the logic of doing
things to the ground to first floor stairs? Arguably it is
improving the situation for people on the first floor in that that
becomes a protected area as well, but I don't follow the logic in
connecting it to a loft conversion. Is it simply that it's an
opportunity for an upgrade because of other work being done?

I guess I am missing the point of why a ground to first floor stairs
change is needed.







It is intended that the ladder is provided by emergency services, although a
rope escape ladder can't be a bad idea and I reckon should be mandatory,
really. It could easily fit in a purpose built cupboard fitted in the escape
window soffit.

Christian.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

So why does an extra floor make you prone to fire then? Id there was a fire
on the ground floor stairs, trust me I wouldnt jump out the new floor. TBH
all i really wanted to know was if Building regs could change approved
plans.

Blakey 9K
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Yes the stairs downstairs are open plan, however I have building regs
approval and the staircase was clearly indicated on the plans, the new
stairs are however enclosed.

Whoops. Whilst you have obviously been subject to some sort of brain fart
between the architect and the BCO, you really should have the stairs
enclosed anyway. 3 storey buildings are a much more dangerous fire risk
than
2 storey ones and it is much more likely to involve death if you jump from
that high up when things get hairy because the stairs are blocked. The
regulations do make sense.

Christian.

I can follow the logic of protecting the stairs from first floor to
loft for all the reasons described, but what is the logic of doing
things to the ground to first floor stairs?

If there is a fire on the ground floor, say a dropped cigarette or burnt out
candle in an open plan lounge, the hallways and stairs must not be
compromised by having those stairs go through the area. The lounge occupants
can flee, the door closes behind (autoclosing) and the loft occupants can
still descend the stairs and can still get out of the front door, despite
the raging inferno in the lounge behind the stairway panelling.

If the ground floor stairs are open plan to the room, then the fire will
disable the entire staircase rapidly. Smoke will rise, even preventing
movement upstairs.

Apparently very few fires happen in stairs and hallways (arson being an
exception). You need to protect the stairs and hallways from bedrooms,
lounges and kitchens, where the fires start. You need to protect the ground
floor stairs, as the stairs are pretty useless as an escape route if they
are on fire (unless you have a second set, of course, which is why 2
independent unprotected main escape routes are permitted).

The general principle is that it is better to bolt out of the front door
than huddle together in the loft waiting for help that might come too late,
because someone ruined the 30min resistant ceiling with halogen downlighters
and the firemen are on strike.

Christian.

In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:

It is intended that the ladder is provided by emergency services, although a
rope escape ladder can't be a bad idea and I reckon should be mandatory,
really. It could easily fit in a purpose built cupboard fitted in the escape
window soffit.

Reminds me of my school. Some of the higher windows had a kind
of fire escape thing whose name I've completely forgotten.
It looked like a giant expanding tape measure fitted to the
ceiling with a single rung seat attached to the rope which
pulled out if it. You sat on the rung and climbed out of the
window. There was a speed governer which limited your rate of
decent. When you reached the ground, you climbed off the rung
and it rewound by spring ready for the next person.

There was much speculation if the things would actually work,
in particular if the speed governers which actually limit the
speed any more at all (they were old even back then). One
day, one of the teachers decided to give one of them a try,
with quite a few onlookers on the ground outside. The device
actually worked very well, giving quite a nice rate of
decent. Then came the snag -- it stopped about 15' short of
the ground as the rope wasn't long enough! Whilst one teacher
was left dangling in mid-air, several people went off in
search of ladders. Eventually, the teacher was rescued.
Sortly after that, whey were all removed and replaced with
iron fire escapes.

Ah the name -- it's come back to me now, they were called
Davy Escapes.

--
Andrew Gabriel

So why does an extra floor make you prone to fire then? Id there was a
fire
on the ground floor stairs, trust me I wouldnt jump out the new floor.

Several reasons.

a) Much quicker to bolt down one flight of stairs and through the door than
2.

b) You might not notice the fire so quickly being so remote from it, so
downstairs
will be well alight before escape attempt made.

c) More rooms. More people to shift. More babies to collect. May need to go
up two flights of stairs to collect baby before returning to ground floor.
Need stairs not to be on fire during this procedure. Need smoke not to be
rising up staircase.

d) Jump out of 1st floor window: Broken leg if unlucky. May even be a porch
or conservatory to clamber on to. Jump out of 2nd floor window: Broken neck
if unlucky.

e) It is sensible to have the same level of protection for a 2 storey house
too.

Christian.

But in theory I would never need to jumo from top floor.

If fire breaks out in loung at groundfloor level and main stairs catch fire,
firealarm will sound in loft as they are all connected. Lobby at bottom of
loft stairs has fire door to main landing which is now on fire, so I open
other door in lobby that goes into 1st floor room with window as escape
route, without having to go near the fire.

Blakey

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
So why does an extra floor make you prone to fire then? Id there was a
fire
on the ground floor stairs, trust me I wouldnt jump out the new floor.

Several reasons.

a) Much quicker to bolt down one flight of stairs and through the door
than
2.

b) You might not notice the fire so quickly being so remote from it, so
downstairs
will be well alight before escape attempt made.

c) More rooms. More people to shift. More babies to collect. May need to
go
up two flights of stairs to collect baby before returning to ground floor.
Need stairs not to be on fire during this procedure. Need smoke not to be
rising up staircase.

d) Jump out of 1st floor window: Broken leg if unlucky. May even be a
porch
or conservatory to clamber on to. Jump out of 2nd floor window: Broken
neck
if unlucky.

e) It is sensible to have the same level of protection for a 2 storey
house
too.

Christian.

If fire breaks out in loung at groundfloor level and main stairs catch
fire,
firealarm will sound in loft as they are all connected. Lobby at bottom of
loft stairs has fire door to main landing which is now on fire, so I open
other door in lobby that goes into 1st floor room with window as escape
route, without having to go near the fire.

You need a protected route that doesn't involve jumping out of windows. The
route you suggest would probably be permitted if the 1st floor room's window
is swapped for a door and steps down to ground level.

Having an accessible escape window is the secondary backup. You need to
consider the elderly, infirm and children. Just because you can vault out of
a 1.2m high window to ground 3m below, doesn't mean everyone else can, or
that you could drop your 3 young children unaided out of it. The primary
route mustn't involve gymnastics, even if the secondary route may.

Christian.

Well I guess I'll find out later on in the week, I'll let you know if I get
my certificate or not.
Definetly will look at legal recourse against local authority if they
unapprove the approved drawings. After all I have spent 25k based on their
approval of the full drawings and would never have undertaken the project if
I had needed to enclose downstairs.

Blakey

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
If fire breaks out in loung at groundfloor level and main stairs catch
fire,
firealarm will sound in loft as they are all connected. Lobby at bottom
of
loft stairs has fire door to main landing which is now on fire, so I
open
other door in lobby that goes into 1st floor room with window as escape
route, without having to go near the fire.

You need a protected route that doesn't involve jumping out of windows.
The
route you suggest would probably be permitted if the 1st floor room's
window
is swapped for a door and steps down to ground level.

Having an accessible escape window is the secondary backup. You need to
consider the elderly, infirm and children. Just because you can vault out
of
a 1.2m high window to ground 3m below, doesn't mean everyone else can, or
that you could drop your 3 young children unaided out of it. The primary
route mustn't involve gymnastics, even if the secondary route may.

Christian.

Well I guess I'll find out later on in the week, I'll let you know if I
get
my certificate or not.
Definetly will look at legal recourse against local authority if they
unapprove the approved drawings.

Also, consider it against the architect, too. They should have known.

Christian.

On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

A BCO will make reasonable efforts to check aspects of the
construction, but we're not Clerks of Works; we can't be on site every
day, so we have to take peoples' word for what they've done. The
other side to that is that the BCO can abrogate responsibility for
something which was said to be done but wasn't.

However,
the experience did get me wondering what else might suddenly strike
her to check up on in future visits, before I get my completion
certificate. I did ask her at the time if there was anything else I
should be aware of - don't think so, she said.

Without full plans, neither of you can be certain that you've covered
everything.

Is this just a risk/side-effect of me being a cheapskate and not doing
the job on a full plan?

One of them, yes.
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".

I did have full plans, thats the whole point.

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

A BCO will make reasonable efforts to check aspects of the
construction, but we're not Clerks of Works; we can't be on site every
day, so we have to take peoples' word for what they've done. The
other side to that is that the BCO can abrogate responsibility for
something which was said to be done but wasn't.

However,
the experience did get me wondering what else might suddenly strike
her to check up on in future visits, before I get my completion
certificate. I did ask her at the time if there was anything else I
should be aware of - don't think so, she said.

Without full plans, neither of you can be certain that you've covered
everything.

Is this just a risk/side-effect of me being a cheapskate and not doing
the job on a full plan?

One of them, yes.
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".

Hugo Nebula wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

Hugo, I'm shocked...!

It did occur to me; however it was not a particularly awkward one to
comply with, so I did the Right Thing. Anyway, I was fairly happy
with the visit all told; the other thing the BCO was inspecting was
the sound insulation which she'd requested I fit to my party wall, and
I was then in the middle of installing it. Now, unfortunately the gas
and electric meter are fixed to the same wall, and enter the property
flush with the wall. With rising horror I realised that full
compliance would mean moving both meters and service entry points,
digging up the pavement to do so. She considered this my setup for
what seemed like ages, then said, 'nah, OK you can leave that
insulation off that bit'. Phew...

As a BCO you'd know better than me, but isn't there an element of
trust; as in, if the BCO catches out a builder telling porkies,
(s)he's never going to believe him again? And I'll bet you've found
yourself demanding that hidden foundations/lintels etc are re-exposed
for inspection, despite all protestations that the specs are OK?!

I regard dealing with BCOs a bit like dealing with my teenaged
daughter; but only in so far as I think it's best to save my arguments
for the really serious stuff!

David

Hugo Nebula wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

Hugo, I'm shocked...!

It did occur to me; however it was not a particularly awkward one to
comply with, so I did the Right Thing. Anyway, I was fairly happy
with the visit all told; the other thing the BCO was inspecting was
the sound insulation which she'd requested I fit to my party wall, and
I was then in the middle of installing it. Now, unfortunately the gas
and electric meter are fixed to the same wall, and enter the property
flush with the wall. With rising horror I realised that full
compliance would mean moving both meters and service entry points,
digging up the pavement to do so. She considered this my setup for
what seemed like ages, then said, 'nah, OK you can leave that
insulation off that bit'. Phew...

As a BCO you'd know better than me, but isn't there an element of
trust; as in, if the BCO catches out a builder telling porkies,
(s)he's never going to believe him again? And I'll bet you've found
yourself demanding that hidden foundations/lintels etc are re-exposed
for inspection, despite all protestations that the specs are OK?!

I regard dealing with BCOs a bit like dealing with my teenaged
daughter; but only in so far as I think it's best to save my arguments
for the really serious stuff!

David

Hugo Nebula wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

Hugo, I'm shocked...!

It did occur to me; however it was not a particularly awkward one to
comply with, so I did the Right Thing. Anyway, I was fairly happy
with the visit all told; the other thing the BCO was inspecting was
the sound insulation which she'd requested I fit to my party wall, and
I was then in the middle of installing it. Now, unfortunately the gas
and electric meter are fixed to the same wall, and enter the property
flush with the wall. With rising horror I realised that full
compliance would mean moving both meters and service entry points,
digging up the pavement to do so. She considered this my setup for
what seemed like ages, then said, 'nah, OK you can leave that
insulation off that bit'. Phew...

As a BCO you'd know better than me, but isn't there an element of
trust; as in, if the BCO catches out a builder telling porkies,
(s)he's never going to believe him again? And I'll bet you've found
yourself demanding that hidden foundations/lintels etc are re-exposed
for inspection, despite all protestations that the specs are OK?!

I regard dealing with BCOs a bit like dealing with my teenaged
daughter; but only in so far as I think it's best to save my arguments
for the really serious stuff!

David

Hugo Nebula wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

Hugo, I'm shocked...!

It did occur to me; however it was not a particularly awkward one to
comply with, so I did the Right Thing. Anyway, I was fairly happy
with the visit all told; the other thing the BCO was inspecting was
the sound insulation which she'd requested I fit to my party wall, and
I was then in the middle of installing it. Now, unfortunately the gas
and electric meter are fixed to the same wall, and enter the property
flush with the wall. With rising horror I realised that full
compliance would mean moving both meters and service entry points,
digging up the pavement to do so. She considered this my setup for
what seemed like ages, then said, 'nah, OK you can leave that
insulation off that bit'. Phew...

As a BCO you'd know better than me, but isn't there an element of
trust; as in, if the BCO catches out a builder telling porkies,
(s)he's never going to believe him again? And I'll bet you've found
yourself demanding that hidden foundations/lintels etc are re-exposed
for inspection, despite all protestations that the specs are OK?!

I regard dealing with BCOs a bit like dealing with my teenaged
daughter; but only in so far as I think it's best to save my arguments
for the really serious stuff!

David

On 16 Jun 2004 12:52:47 -0700,
(Lobster) wrote:



I regard dealing with BCOs a bit like dealing with my teenaged
daughter; but only in so far as I think it's best to save my arguments
for the really serious stuff!

If you can deal with a teenaged daughter, then there is no challenge
that will be beyond your diplomatic and negotiating skills.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Hugo Nebula wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jun 2004 01:35:53 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named
(Lobster) randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

I had a slightly similar situation myself, in that I am doing my
current project under a building notice. The BCO has been round many
times to inspect, and on one visit, said 'did you put sound insulation
in those partition walls?' (she'd seen them previously, before the
plasterboard was fitted) 'Er, no, did I need to...'

Perhaps you should have just nodded your head and lied. It's a little
game we have to play sometimes, like, "Have you put a cavity tray in
above the new lean to roof?" "No, it's too fiddly and time consuming."
"Wrong answer, try again".

A BCO will make reasonable efforts to check aspects of the
construction, but we're not Clerks of Works; we can't be on site every
day, so we have to take peoples' word for what they've done. The
other side to that is that the BCO can abrogate responsibility for
something which was said to be done but wasn't.

However,
the experience did get me wondering what else might suddenly strike
her to check up on in future visits, before I get my completion
certificate. I did ask her at the time if there was anything else I
should be aware of - don't think so, she said.

Without full plans, neither of you can be certain that you've covered
everything.

Is this just a risk/side-effect of me being a cheapskate and not doing
the job on a full plan?

One of them, yes.

Had another similar BCO inspection today. She came round to look at
the sound insulation as agreed (see above!) which was fine. Then she
says, 'oh, how about smoke alarms?' 'Yes, I've got a mains-powered one
and am fitting it just here' (I point to hole in landing ceiling).
'Ah, well I'm afraid you need two. Interconnected.'

Bwahahah! And this is 24 hours after the plasterer has finished
skimming all the stud partitions which would have carried the
interconnect.

Oh well - took half the afternoon but eventually I managed to get a
mains cable to the planned location of the second alarm, plus an
interconnect cable in place via another route (anybody remember my
sound-proofed internal soil stack a couple of weeks ago?!). I think I
only need one more inspection for her to sign off (that's if she
doesn't think of anything else meanwhile)...

David

Well you'll be pleaseed to hear that I passed building regs no problems. So
those of you who insist that the ground floor stairs be all boxed in etc, I
suggest you do a little further reading. :0)


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
build is now nearly finished, but one of the guys from the loft
company said that the building inspector my insist that I have a wall
built downstairs, for fire regs.

Do you mean that you have open plan stairs downstairs or something?

Christian.

"james blake" wrote in message
...
Well you'll be pleaseed to hear that I passed building regs no problems.
So
those of you who insist that the ground floor stairs be all boxed in etc,
I
suggest you do a little further reading. :0)



Well, that's good news, you'll probably be feeling quite releived at that!!!

Was there any indication as to what it was with your conversion that made
things compliant, having regards to the fact that the ground floor is open
plan? It just might help others (me included) whilst planning their
conversions.

However, it would be completely understandable if you didn't want to prod
that particular gimp during the inspection and question their decision too
closely, lest they scratch their heads and say "you're right - weve missed
something and it isn't compliant"!

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

No I dont mind telling you at all, I dont believe it would be possible for a
buildings control officer to miss it, if it was required.
It has to be said that although Building regs in theory are country wide, I
think it can be down to interpretation on individual Local Authoritys and
probably the BCO's within them.

My brother who is my architect said that he first came across a situation
like this about 9 months ago in Teignmouth, Devon (not where I am),
but said that he didnt think you would've beeen able to do it a couple of
years ago.

Basically where the stairs come down from the loft there is a lobby, to the
right of this is a fire door that leads to a landing and stairs downstairs
into my lounge, to
the left is another fire door leading to a bedroom that has a window at not
higher than something I cant remember. Each floor has a connected fire
alarm.

I think basically its something like..... The stairs to the front door are
the primary escape route even though they arent enclosed, however should
there be a problem getting there I can also use
the first floor window when coming down from the loft without entering the
rest of the house, the also has the double velux windows for the fire
brigade to get into.

Hope this helps

Blakey


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .

"james blake" wrote in message
...
Well you'll be pleaseed to hear that I passed building regs no problems.
So
those of you who insist that the ground floor stairs be all boxed in
etc,
I
suggest you do a little further reading. :0)



Well, that's good news, you'll probably be feeling quite releived at
that!!!

Was there any indication as to what it was with your conversion that made
things compliant, having regards to the fact that the ground floor is open
plan? It just might help others (me included) whilst planning their
conversions.

However, it would be completely understandable if you didn't want to prod
that particular gimp during the inspection and question their decision too
closely, lest they scratch their heads and say "you're right - weve missed
something and it isn't compliant"!

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk