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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Design for the dump?
And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
#2
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 13, 7:54*pm, CaveLamb wrote:
And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: *www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb The basic problem is defining what is means to "be designed to be repaired". I own an electronic assembly service and we build everything electronic from cables to circuit boards to complete units ready to ship to the end user. Everything we build can be repaired, and sometimes we do have to repair them. We can do that because we have the documentation, test equipment, and knowledge to do it. We do not have documentation and test fixtures to repair and test other companies devices. So, most consumer products are not repairable because no one but the manufacture has that ability. Unlike the radios and TV sets of the 1940-60's, the electronic manufactures do not release documentation to repair their devices, nor do they have spare or replacement parts kits. We get calls every week asking if we can repair some instrument or device. A number of calls are from people that think they have traced a problem to a burned resistor or a connector that is broken. When we explain that a burned resistor is a symptom of the problem and not the cause, they begin to understand why our shop rate is $50 per hour, but only work on devices we have actually built. The only case where we have been able to help someone was a call several years ago from an airplane mechanic from a small airport about 50 miles South of our plant. He had a plane stuck at the little airport because several diodes had opened and he couldn't fly it that way. We found diodes that would work temporarily for him and just gave them to him. The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Paul |
#3
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Design for the dump?
KD7HB wrote:
.... The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Yeah, nowadays it's cheaper to throw it away anyway. But when I was your age, stuff actually _was_ consumer-repairable, but consumers were a lot smarter back then. Thanks, Rich |
#4
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 12:21*am, KD7HB wrote:
.. We can do that because we have the documentation, test equipment, and knowledge to do it. We do not have documentation and test fixtures to repair and test other companies devices. So, most consumer products are not repairable because no one but the manufacture has that ability. Unlike the radios and TV sets of the 1940-60's, the electronic manufactures do not release documentation to repair their devices, nor do they have spare or replacement parts kits. Paul What is surprising to be is that the electronic manufacturers do not release the documentation. I would think it would not cost a lot to do so. No actual printing needed, just release the information via a web site. I agree it would not be a profit center, but it would influence me as to what to buy. I currently have a digital voltmeter that has the AC millivolt range not working. I opened it up and found the pcb has a Mastech label. I contacted Mastech but got no answer to my query for a schematic. So black mark against Mastech. Can't even get information on calibration although there are several pots visible on the pcb. Dan |
#5
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Design for the dump?
7 minutes 47 seconds of nothing new. Basically advocating "take back",
where manufacturers are responsible for product disposal at its end-of-life. 'Course what that would really mean is a big jump in the original price to cover the handling, transportation, and disposal at the end. And a deposit, so the consumer actually returns it, rather than just more-easily dumping it. Naive. Bob |
#6
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Design for the dump?
"Rich Grise" wrote in message ... KD7HB wrote: ... The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Yeah, nowadays it's cheaper to throw it away anyway. But when I was your age, stuff actually _was_ consumer-repairable, but consumers were a lot smarter back then. Thanks, Rich Yes, between 1986 and 1996 I repaired 11,000 VCRs, by 1995 I saw the price was getting so low that it would not be long and I wouldn't get a fair price to repair them. My thought process was, move to Florida or get into repair of DVD players, (they were the new thing). I moved to Florida, I'm glad I did, the price of DVDs came down quick. MikeK |
#7
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote:
KD7HB wrote: ... The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Yeah, nowadays it's cheaper to throw it away anyway. But when I was your age, stuff actually _was_ consumer-repairable, but consumers were a lot smarter back then. Consumers aren't stupid, just unarmed. You can turn lots of dumb consumers into smart consumers. Just add availability of parts and information. Ferinstance: * My Palm PDA got a new lease when I replaced the screen and digitizer. It was quick and easy. * My $30 coffee maker works like new after I flushed the spilled grounds out of the heater tube. * My truck clutch works a *lot* better after I replaced the hydraulics. * My rotary hammer functions once more after I located and repaired a disconnected wire. * Summers are much more pleasant now that I replaced all the occluded rafter end vent screens with new ones. * The TPMS in my car works properly once again after I readjusted the tire pressure to factory spec and reset the trigger threshold in the computer. And lots of other things that I don't recall at the moment. Note that in all but one of these cases, the OEM wasn't directly involved in sourcing either the replacement part or the documentation necessary to do a successful repair. (In the TPMS case, the problem was *caused* by a Toyota dealer repair manager!) --Winston |
#8
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Design for the dump?
On 2010-11-14, Winston wrote:
Rich Grise wrote: KD7HB wrote: ... The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Yeah, nowadays it's cheaper to throw it away anyway. But when I was your age, stuff actually _was_ consumer-repairable, but consumers were a lot smarter back then. Consumers aren't stupid, just unarmed. You can turn lots of dumb consumers into smart consumers. Just add availability of parts and information. Ferinstance: * My Palm PDA got a new lease when I replaced the screen and digitizer. It was quick and easy. * My $30 coffee maker works like new after I flushed the spilled grounds out of the heater tube. * My truck clutch works a *lot* better after I replaced the hydraulics. * My rotary hammer functions once more after I located and repaired a disconnected wire. * Summers are much more pleasant now that I replaced all the occluded rafter end vent screens with new ones. * The TPMS in my car works properly once again after I readjusted the tire pressure to factory spec and reset the trigger threshold in the computer. And lots of other things that I don't recall at the moment. I fixed a small MP3 player once, by re-soldering a power switch. i |
#9
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Design for the dump?
CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#10
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Design for the dump?
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:21:54 -0800 (PST), KD7HB
wrote: On Nov 13, 7:54Â*pm, CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: Â*www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb The basic problem is defining what is means to "be designed to be repaired". I own an electronic assembly service and we build everything electronic from cables to circuit boards to complete units ready to ship to the end user. Everything we build can be repaired, and sometimes we do have to repair them. We can do that because we have the documentation, test equipment, and knowledge to do it. We do not have documentation and test fixtures to repair and test other companies devices. So, most consumer products are not repairable because no one but the manufacture has that ability. Unlike the radios and TV sets of the 1940-60's, the electronic manufactures do not release documentation to repair their devices, nor do they have spare or replacement parts kits. We get calls every week asking if we can repair some instrument or device. A number of calls are from people that think they have traced a problem to a burned resistor or a connector that is broken. When we explain that a burned resistor is a symptom of the problem and not the cause, they begin to understand why our shop rate is $50 per hour, but only work on devices we have actually built. The only case where we have been able to help someone was a call several years ago from an airplane mechanic from a small airport about 50 miles South of our plant. He had a plane stuck at the little airport because several diodes had opened and he couldn't fly it that way. We found diodes that would work temporarily for him and just gave them to him. The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved. Paul To a large extent, yes - but if companies were REQUIRED to make devices repairable it would do away with the solvent welded (or heat welded) plastic cases in favour of screwed together cases - possibly even using non-toxic non-plastic materials, such as aluminum or even wood that could be opened without destroying the, to get at the components. If the circuit boards had to be replaceable, and the replacement boards had to be available for exchange so the boards could be repaired, and thereby actually recycled, the design would need to change from multiple boards soldered together to boards that plug together (like most used to in the past) Self diagnostics could be built into most designs that would indicate which subassembly had failed. The big problem is, this would make the devices more expensive to BUILD. Which means either the profit margin would drop or the selling price would go up substantially. This would mean fewer would be sold. If they could be fxed, even fewer would be sold - and that , along with the lower profit margins, would reduce the earnings of these companies, lowering their stock value, which would really **** off the stock-holders. The economy as we know it would have to totally re-adjust itself - we'd be back to the sixties. The devices would also have to become larger, or contain less features in the same size, because miniturization and repairability do not particularly work together. Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. |
#11
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Design for the dump?
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Thanks, Rich |
#12
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 4:40*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
* *Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Thanks, Rich There used to be advertisements in magazines as Science and Mechanics for the equipment to rebuild picture tubes. As I remember you replaced the entire gun assembly, pumped it down, and sealed off the evacuation port. Dan |
#13
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:40:09 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Thanks, Rich Used to be able to buy rebuilt tubes from a lot of suppliers. |
#14
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:40:09 -0800, the renowned Rich Grise
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Thanks, Rich Yes, it used to be fairly common. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#15
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Design for the dump?
On 11/13/2010 07:54 PM, CaveLamb wrote:
And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html Part of this is because designing stuff to be repaired is difficult. But part of this is because one hour of repair time in the US costs many man-days of labor in the country where the electronics got manufactured. As the Chinese and Indians Malaysians and whoever get into wage-parity with us, it'll be more sensible to spend an hour of our time instead of just chucking something and spending man-days of some Chinese guy's time. Then the market will start demanding reparable stuff, and you'll see it happen. It'll just be basic market forces at work. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html |
#16
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 1:40*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." * *Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Three kinds of rebuild: (1) the cathode could be 'outgassed' aka 'rejuvenated' (just a bit of overheating, and it made the tube a bit brighter for a while). (2) the innards could be re-welded. Tektronix, it is said, got a $50k industrial laser, and on its first day in operation reworked enough storage-scope electrodes by welding through the glass envelope, to repay the full investment. There were also techniques for adjust-using-gravity then spotweld by applying high current to the external wires. (3) the neck can be sawed off and a new electron gun spliced in. Sounds drastic, but replacement electron guns for (for instance) electron microscopes are a common maintenance item. |
#17
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Design for the dump?
Rich Grise wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen." Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes? I've never heard of it done. Have you? Duh. Most replacment picture tubes were rebuilt. A common CRT was $39 rebuilt, and $119 with new glass. If they were on sale, some rebuilts were $19.95. If you didn't know what to look for you couldn't tell the difference in new or rebuilt. A rebuild CRT had another ridge on the neck, near the bell. Some had two or more, if the glass dud was rare. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#18
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 3:38*pm, wrote:
... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw |
#19
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Design for the dump?
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw Me , to all four . Just last week I had to replace the float in my truck's carb . Plastic part , ethanol eats 'em up in a couple of years . Shoulda rebuilt the starter week-before-last , but I bit the bullet and bought a new one (son works at the parts store , I get his discount) because of time considerations . The old one is on the bench to be rebuilt as a spare , just needs brushes and a tail end bushing . -- Snag Got Guns ? |
#20
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Design for the dump?
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:54:58 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html That was cool. Give an idealist a bunch of electronic gizmos and that's what yea get. I could have used that chick the last time I worked on my Toyota, the clips that hold the air filter have to be lifted up and there is no space to get a finger in. I had to get a paint stick and from underneath looking straight up, push the clip up, and tape the stick to the body, then jump up and pull the cover off. One would think after a GOOD hundred years they could make a car where you can get some of the engine apart one part at a time. Oh, and keep the tool sizes under say 5. While I'm at it. I have two toys of the same year and everything is about 3/32 of an inch different on all interchangeable parts, including the air filter! Had that problem years ago when the timing chain ate through the aluminum cover. Got another from a junk yard and majors amount of work later the covers are 3/32" different. If I make a product with lots of aluminum, copper, and steel when the customer wants to recycle it do I get the inflated future price sent back to me? SW |
#21
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Design for the dump?
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I rebuilt a carburetor as a poor college student in the early 80's. It had a "sticky" choke. It was explained to me that at the hourly rated charged by professionals, it made sense for them to replace rather than rebuild them. The "rebuild kit", consisting mainly of gaskets, was less than $20. I layed out and cleaned every part, reassembled, and the car started on the first try. Impressing my dad-- priceless! ; ) Bill |
#22
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Design for the dump?
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. |
#23
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 8:34*pm, "ATP" wrote:
... It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. That's the heart of the problem. There's also the complexity of modern devices. I can strip and reassemble a Segway pretty quickly but wouldn't suggest it to owners. Even in their lab we didn't have a manual. I learned by watching the production line. jsw |
#24
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:05:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Nov 14, 3:38Â*pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw All three, several of them many times. |
#25
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:25:12 -0600, Sunworshipper
wrote: On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:54:58 -0600, CaveLamb wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html That was cool. Give an idealist a bunch of electronic gizmos and that's what yea get. I could have used that chick the last time I worked on my Toyota, the clips that hold the air filter have to be lifted up and there is no space to get a finger in. I had to get a paint stick and from underneath looking straight up, push the clip up, and tape the stick to the body, then jump up and pull the cover off. One would think after a GOOD hundred years they could make a car where you can get some of the engine apart one part at a time. Oh, and keep the tool sizes under say 5. While I'm at it. I have two toys of the same year and everything is about 3/32 of an inch different on all interchangeable parts, including the air filter! Had that problem years ago when the timing chain ate through the aluminum cover. Got another from a junk yard and majors amount of work later the covers are 3/32" different. You had 2 different engines. I'll bet one was an 8R and the other an 18R - or a 20R and a 22R. The cam-in-block designs used interchangeable parts (2T and 3T, k, 2k, 3k and, IIRC, 5K) and 3R and 5R. On some, the newer fit the older with a few update parts, while the older might not fit the newer (upgrades for reliability etc) If I make a product with lots of aluminum, copper, and steel when the customer wants to recycle it do I get the inflated future price sent back to me? SW |
#26
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:34:23 -0500, "ATP"
wrote: "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. On SOME starter motors, if you can rebuild it yourself the savings amount to close to $200 an hour. For that kind of money, BRING 'EM ON!!!!. As for Carbs - not much other than small engines use carbs any more, and even with the ridiculous prices they charge for carb replacement parts, unless the carb is totally trashed, I'll fix it. And if it has a sunk brass float, I'll fix THAT too, instead of replacing it (most likely with a plastic replacement) CPUs? In the next couple of weeks I'll be replacing the 10 year old server that I upgraded the CPU from a single Xeon 1.4 to dual 2.4 Xeons about 4 or 5 years ago (using E-Bay pulls) saving close to $2000 over the cost of an almost equivalent replacement. My current personal computer has not been replaced in totallity for almost 10 years. It has been replaced piece at a time as used/repaired parts have become available from customer upgrades. It's still a few generations behind, but does the job and certainly doesn't owe ME anything. |
#27
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 14, 8:34*pm, "ATP" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. I find it very cost effective to rebuild both starters and carburetors. On the Isuzu truck I am currently driving, the stater went out. Local parts stores wanted $140 for a "rebuilt". 10 minutes on the web told me the problem was almost certainly the solenoid contacts. Open it up and verified that the contacts were burned to thin. Local stores did not carry the contacts. I did not want to wait days to order contacts. Took about an hour to fabricate from copper water pipe. I increased contact area by about 3x. YMMV CarlBoyd |
#28
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Design for the dump?
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 14, 3:38*pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? I haven't recut a faucet seat, but I've swapped out the replaceable one. Haven't "changed" a CPU - generally they're replaced along with the new motherboard. Yes, I've rebuilt a carburetor. No, I haven't rebuilt a starter motor but I've replaced a clutch and pressure plate, and gas brazed a broken piece of linkage. Come to think of it, I've swapped out a Bendix. How 'bout you? ;-) Thanks! Rich |
#29
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Design for the dump?
ATP wrote:
I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. These days, cars don't even _have_ carburetors. Thanks, Rich |
#30
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Design for the dump?
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? Yes to all of them. I even soldered a cracked brass valve body for my shower after it froze. -- Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is enough left over to pay them. |
#31
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Design for the dump?
On 2010-11-15, Jim Wilkins wrote:
[ ... ] Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? Me, me, me, and me. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#32
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Design for the dump?
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:54:58 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote: And interesting essay. But will people buy products designed to be repaired? http://consumerist.com/2010/11/the-s...ectronics.html Another question is: should they? Mechanical things can be made to be repairable, and mechanisms do wear. Electronic stuff can be made to be high-reliability, but not at rock-bottom penny-shaving competitive consumer cost. I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet. |
#33
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Design for the dump?
On 2010-11-15, Don Foreman wrote:
Mechanical things can be made to be repairable, and mechanisms do wear. Electronic stuff can be made to be high-reliability, but not at rock-bottom penny-shaving competitive consumer cost. I think that trying to make consumer electronic stuff either repairable or infallible is unrealistic. We need to learn how to recycle more efficiently, effectively and economically so we can continue to enjoy the benefits of efficiently-produced low-cost gadgets and gizmos without screwing up the planet. Exactly. Electronic gadgets are usually obsolete in 3 years. Why go to an extra expense to make, say, a cell phone or a MP3 player last 30 years? It makes no sense. Plus, there is no sense in making a $30 item repairable, as any repair would easily cost much more. Computers are made to last longer and routinely go over 10 years of age, and usually can be easily and inexpensively repaired by swapping parts (fans, motherboards, cards etc). So, some electronic devices do have greater reliability. I recently set up a computer that I hope will last over 10 years. It is based on Intel atom CPU and has NO moving parts: SSD instead of a disk drive and no fan. I will use it to be a server. i |
#34
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:27:38 -0500, Bill wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I rebuilt a carburetor as a poor college student in the early 80's. It had a "sticky" choke. It was explained to me that at the hourly rated charged by professionals, it made sense for them to replace rather than rebuild them. The "rebuild kit", consisting mainly of gaskets, was less than $20. I layed out and cleaned every part, reassembled, and the car started on the first try. Impressing my dad-- priceless! ; ) Bill In the early '60s I drove Austins. One day I was just finishing the rebuild on an SU carb when one of our engineers (English chap) popped in. He suggested that he could take it to the dealership's service department and get it properly set up. I declined his kind offer and bolted it in place and made all the connections and demonstrated to him how well the engine ran now. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#35
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:34:23 -0500, "ATP"
wrote: "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. Last summer I gave away (in running condition) the lawnmower I bought for $5 in 1990. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#36
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:34:23 -0500, "ATP"
wrote: "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Nov 14, 3:38 pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. I rebuild the carb on my snowblower every 5 years. The Tecumseh "Snow King" engine is a sturdy reliable steed but it's fussy about its carb. I take care of it, it takes care of me. |
#37
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 15, 2:02*am, Don Foreman wrote:
.... Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? jsw ... I rebuild the carb on my snowblower every 5 years. *The Tecumseh "Snow King" engine is a sturdy reliable steed but it's *fussy about its carb. *I take care of it, it takes care of me. That's a list of repairs that someone thought I was crazy to do myself, instead of buying new as they would have. I figured you guys might have had the same experience. jsw |
#38
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:17:53 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 14, 3:38*pm, wrote: ... Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm". People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it. Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor? I haven't recut a faucet seat, but I've swapped out the replaceable one. Haven't "changed" a CPU - generally they're replaced along with the new motherboard. Yes, I've rebuilt a carburetor. No, I haven't rebuilt a starter motor but I've replaced a clutch and pressure plate, and gas brazed a broken piece of linkage. Come to think of it, I've swapped out a Bendix. How 'bout you? ;-) I have your same experience, but I have R&Red a CPU to install fresh thermal goo, too. -- To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure. -- J. K. Rowling |
#39
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Design for the dump?
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:19:02 -0800, Rich Grise
wrote: ATP wrote: I have done all those things, but most faucets from the last 20 years do not have seats that can be recut, they have cartridges. It's no longer cost effective to change CPU's or rebuild carburetors or starter motors. These days, cars don't even _have_ carburetors. Thank insert deity of choice for that. No dead stumbles into traffic lanes when the engine's cold! -- To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure. -- J. K. Rowling |
#40
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Design for the dump?
On Nov 15, 8:32*am, Larry Jaques
wrote: ... These days, cars don't even _have_ carburetors. Thank insert deity of choice for that. *No dead stumbles into traffic lanes when the engine's cold! ... Cars don't, but the orphaned yard machines that appear on my doorstep do, and often the carb is the reason. jsw |
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